50-70 Gummint

Another thread I talked about an original 1859 Sharps Carbine that looks like the described 1867-69 conversion to 50-70 - center fire block and 3-groove liner. One of members has graciously accepted sending me a case, so I can try fit and function. If all this works out, I am planning to mount this piece in some new wood, as I don't want to take a chance of splliting that old stock. Also, I am going to need a rear sight.

Now, here's my question. Having never loaded a single black powder cartridge, do you all have suggestions on technique and loads. I have reviewed printed material I have, so don't remind to go buy a BP loading manual - already got one. I would input from the experts who have been doing it. Just a nice friendly conversation about the 50-70. Thanks. sundog

GM and 45Nut - good job on having a BPC forum.

Sundog, 70 grains of 2FFG black, a .030 thick wad and a 425-450 grain bullet sized a couple thousandths over bore OR cast from pure lead to bump up will give fantastic results. There can be NO air pockets between the bullet and powder or there will be bad results. Use standard primers also. Lube should be SPG or equivalent for black powder fouling to remain soft. Enjoy!! moodyholler

Yeah, I load black for a 1866 trapdoor and it shoots pretty well for its sights. Look at your firing pin hole, is it BIG or little. Big holes limit the strength of a load. This has been true in a couple of old ballards and a garret sharps, anything that has a sliding or tipping breach block will do this. I'm useing Elephant FG with a 5 gr. SR4759 kicker with a 500 gr. Saeco mold which is mild enough for the rifle and design. Don't even think of useing a lube with petroleum products in it. Try 1/2 beeswax and 1/2 olive oil, peanut oil or canola oil for a lube

For a Sharps carbine I ended up casting a 425 bullet from 1-40 mix and sizing at 514. For lube I used bear oil and beeswax. Powder was goex FFg with a felt wad. This load with cut down basic brass would shoot right at 3" at 100 yards for as long as you could stand to shoot it. In the light carbine after about 10 or 12 I usually had to quit.

It's been a lot of years since I sold my Sharps carbine, but if memory serves, I don't think you can get 70 grs. of FFG in a .50-70 case. Modern brass has less capacity than the old ballon head shells of yesteryear. In my trapdoor .45-70, 62 grs. of FFG is a compressed load. For many years I have been using a homemade lube recommended in an old Lyman catalog cosisting of 1/2 beeswax and 1/2 deer tallow. KCSO mentioned this lube some time back using sheep tallow. I usually wipe the bore between shots--don't know how many I could run through it without cleaning--doesn't matter. The problem I had with the .50-70 carbine was finding a good bullet. I didn't have access to a good mould, couldn't have afforded it if I did, but what I did have was one of those old Dixie moulds made from hair straightening tools that women would heat over a kerosene lamp. It didn't make very good bullets. I tried hitting a barn, one time, with poor results, and I was inside the barn.

Trying to remember what model that Sharps carbine was. 1863, I think. That sound right? Traded a Remington Rand .45 Govt. for it. Some of those carbines were relined by Sharps when they converted them for the govt. Those with good bores were left .52 and mine was one of them. I suppose that Dixie bullet never got close to the rifleing. Rambling on here brings back some things I'd forgotten. I think I had some RCBS .50-70 brass. That doesnt sound right. I know Bell had gotten into the brass business about that time but I don't think that was what I had. Anyway, I remember paying 50 cents apiece for them. I'll quit now.

...............When I got serious about shooting muzzle loaders one of my shooting pals became my mentor. His name is Bob Clark but known as "3 Band Bob" for his love of his NYNG 3 band RB in 50-70 Gubmint. He had a 50-70 RB carbine too, but he sold it before I really got to know him well. I do recall him saying he loaded only 55grs of BP for the carbine. He isn't a real tall or heavily built guy so I suspect full rifle loads kind of twisted him around a bit with the carbine.

I really don't know why I'm responding to this thread as I don't recall what his load was, or the components were that he used. I do know he had no real problem ringing the 200 meter gongs offhand with the big RB. On it's butt it was about as long as he was tall. He wasn't too shabby with a 3 band percussion Sharps either.

You should be able to whip out a powder compression die pretty quick, as you'll need one. If you need a source for felt (lubed felt wads) I suggest Durafelt over McMaster -Carr.

...............Buckshot

In my rolling block carbine I am using 55gr goex ffg felt wad .30 soaked in beeswax lard lube over a tablet backer wad with a 450gr lee bullet cast of 40 to 1 lead tin mix bullet is lubed with emmerts lube. shoots very well hits the gong at 200 with boreing regularity .

Sundog I probably ought not answer this, but here goes anyway. If you didn't want to know, then don't ask.

Loading black powder is about as much an art as it is a science. There are certain laws of physics that are indeed science, but they are used in conjunction with caution, brains, and experience with each INDIVIDUAL black powder rifle to determine what load shoots best in it. To be able to do that effectively, you need information. Now you can trust your rifle and your life to what some guy tells you on the Internet, or you can get information from reliable sources that print manuals and have pressure guns and ballistic labs available to them. You decide and you pay the price either way. But I tell you straight out and up front that if you don't want to do black powder loading right, you might better take up golf because BP is NOT like loading smokeless powder. It is NOT a progressive burning powder. It is a class "C" EXPLOSIVE and it acts and reacts a LOT differently to various situations than does smokeless powders. If you are confident that the one loading manual you have covers the subject to your complete satisfaction, then I'm happy for you. But you should know that your life could depend on that information and your understanding of it.

The first misconception about black powder is that you can't over load it. WRONG! The first time I ever heard that was a man loading his BP rifle the day before hunting season. It was the first time he had ever done it and the clerk at Wal-Mart told him to load it with a "hand full" of powder and don't worry about it because it would only burn the powder that could be burned in the length of the barrel and all excess powder would simply blow out the end of the barrel.

As the guy was loading his rifle, I went to my truck and got my spinning rod and came back. As the man got ready to shoot his rifle, I asked him if he had ever shot that load before. He said no. Then I suggested that we stick the rifle in the fork of a nearby tree and tie one end of my fishing line to it and back up to pull it to fire the thing. He thought that was a good idea and about six of us standing there all backed up and he jerked the line and shot the rifle. Pieces of it fell all around us and it's a wonder someone wasn't hit by flying parts. It completely blew that barrel off of that rifle into small pieces and split the receiver. You can imagine what would have been the result had he had his face behind that when he pulled the trigger. So much for trusting people you don't know to tell you how to load black powder.

I suggest in the strongest possible way that you read the one manual you have and know all it says about loading black powder. That you state you have already done that and yet come here and ask basic questions about loading techniques would lead any reasonable and prudent person to think that you either don't have a good loading manual or that you have not studied it because if you had a good manual and studied it, you wouldn't have basic questions about how to load.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now, but that is my best advice to you as a beginning loader of black powder. Black powder is very unforgiving and you will only make one serious mistake with it and we are going to hear all about it on the 6 O'clock news.

Here's the deal, you need brass, dies, press, BP powder measure, a 24 to 30 inch drop tube, a compression die, dial calipers, and the bullet and load (from a good loading manual) you intend to try. Size the brass, put in new primer, set the powder measure using an accurate scale, throw the change, slowly trickle the powder down the drop tube into the case, put a wad over the powder and push it down as far as you can using finger pressure and maybe a pencil with a soft rubber erasr on the end of it. Using your dial caliper, measure the distance from the top of the wad to the top of the case. Then measure the distance from the base of the bullet you are going to use to the crimp groove on the bullet. Subtracting the distance from the top of the wad to the top of the case from the distance from the bottom of the bullet to the crimp groove is the amount of compression you will have to put on the powder column to seat the bullet to the crimp groove. Compress the powder, insert the bullet and seat it. Check to BE SURE there is no air space between the bottom of the bullet and the powder or wad. You are finished except for test firing to check for accuracy.

Once you insure that the load is reasonably accurate, you can begin to experiment with seating depth always insuring that no air space is present in the load, and with different powder charges always working up slowly and closely observing all the usual signs of building pressure. If you have a chronograph, ( A Chrony is cheap life insurance) the velocity numbers will tell you more about pressure than any visable signs on the brass since velocity is a direct function of pressure i.e., if you observe a jump in velocity, you have a corresponding jump in pressure. That is one of those laws of physics that is science and it works EVERY time.

Using the above outlined approach, you should encounter no situations where you or your equipment is at risk and that is the responsible way to load black powder or smokeless for that matter. Try it and let us know how you do. It's always educational to understand how a load is developed and the steps in accomplishing that. I have learned a lot from other loaders following their process, BUT I was WELL VERSED in the proper way to load BEFORE I considered their approach and I suggest that you consider doing the same.

All the best to you partner.

On the 50-70 powder capacity depends on the brass. Bell will hold just at 70 grains if you drop or vibrate. I had a 50-70 trapdoor and shoot a Sharps carbine occasionally.

Sun dog I loaded for 15 years with a scoop for a powder measure, a tong tool and dip lubed bullets cast from an old Lyman mold. I used F/A cases made in 1889, and old stock Dupont powder is screw top cans, and never had any problems. My trapdoor would shoot into 3" at 100 yards. It wasn't until I discovered Alox, loadng presses and modern cases that I ever had a problem shooting black.

Looks like I have time to do some clean up work on the Sharp's as my brass is backordered. That's no problem (besides we got the .22 project kinda halfass working right now anyway). Got a mould and wads coming, and I'll mix up some lube. Looks like Junior (and others) have a pretty good recipe. Heck, I've even used straight Crisco on R.E.A.L.s and it work just fine. Been talking off line with a couple forum members, too.

KCSO, about the scoop and tong tool - back to basics. I bet the buff runners didn't have anything more than that, too. They were quite successful - almost TOO successful.

Ya know, I've been thinking that this gun may not have even been shot during the twentieth century. I certainly don't remember my Dad ever talking about anyone ever using it. It'll be pretty nifty gettin' the ole gal back on duty.

Prince, I did want to know, that's why I asked. Your comments are appreciated. That's the best part about this forum, the people and that we get to talk about stuff. This just adds another dimension to more than thirty-five years of casting and hand loading. In this particular case (pun intended) 'old' is 'new'! sundog (NRA Certified Reloading Instructor - metallic and shotshell) NRA Patron Member

Sundog

I just submitted an article to the SHOOTIST about using old time tools to reload a 45-110 Sharps. I made a complete reloading kit copied from an original set of tools supplied by Sharps in the 1870's. Basicly this is just an old Lee Loader only bigger. Using all the best tools and techniques in the shop I couldn't beat the old tools by more than 1" at 100 yards. In the 50-70 I beagled my mold as modern bores are made for 512 and my trapdoor went 515. I still had to stick with soft lead and rely on bump up. The Sharps that my buddy has runs 514.

KCSO

You are absolutely right about these new fangled tools and not being able to use them to do much better than the old tools. And another thing, I didn't need to constantly "adjust" anything on my old stuff either. I've got a dern Dillon 550-B and it drives me nuts "adjusting" the thing. It works well and I can load a lot of cartridges on it in a short time, but most times I perfer to use my old Lyman All American press or the Bonanza depending on what I'm loading at the time. Lord knows how many cartridges I loaded on an old Texan "C" press until I stripped all the threads out of it and couldn't get a die to stay in it.

But that was back in 1958 when I first started on the reloading road and most of the stuff I use now wasn't even made back then. There have been improvements in the tools over the past 48 years that I've been pulling levers on presses, but I can use an old Lee set that was given to me in 1958 to load cartridges that I am just as comfortable shooting as anything loaded on this fancy new "progressive" stuff. But when you shoot competetive pistols like I did for 30 years, you have to have a quick set-up or you can't load enough cartidges for the next match the following weekend during the week night nights after work. THAT is where the Dillon really shines.

But when I'm loading rifle cartridges, I always use my old Lyman All American. It has it's little quirks and I have mine, but we get along together just fine. Course, you tend to do that when you've been together as long as we have. I call it old red but I can't tell you what it calls me on this forum without getting thrown off.

Sundog

You are correct about the people. I've not met many serious shooters and reloaders that didn't care or wouldn't help you with loading or coaching you on shooting even if he was your competetor. I shot NRA 2700 bullseye and highpower rifle matches in three states for 30 years before cataracs made that almost impossible to do any more, although I am seeing an eye doc now that says he may be able to use some of the new technology to help me see better in my master eye. This getting old isn't all it has been cracked up to be or have you noticed that yet?

Where are the "golden" years? What little gold I had has gone to dern doctors now. But I can still go to the line and make noise and keep all those fellers from going to sleep. Burning gunpowder still smells good so I'm happy despite being a little old and brittle. Tickles the crap out of me to get one of these young ackjasses on the firing range next to me with the latest "new thing" and put it on him bad with my old 1911-A1. As long as I can breathe, I think I will be able to shoot that thing as well as I need to. I wore out about six or seven of them over the years and it takes some shooting to wear down a good Colt. But by golly, I DID some shooting back in that other life time. Dam I do miss it!

Just came in from the barn. I cast about 10 pounds of Lee 515-450-F from a mix of about 40 to 1 (dead soft shower pan recovered and cleaned many years ago and radiator shop solder recovered with Felix 2 years ago and put up in cupcakes for just such use). Good looking boolits, and very round at .515, good bases, too. It's raining here today, so good casting.

Prince, the golden years? Whatever 'gold' you managed to collect you get to give away in the name of staying healthy. sundog

I reckon so pilgrim.

I believe if I had an original Sharps in 50-70 , I'd use triple 7 instead of BP . But thats a personal thing . I just do not like using BP in any thing other then a ML.:???:

Granted I know there are many that do , but I am not one of those . I have a original trapdoor that I shoot Triple 7 , SR4759 or XMP5744 in .

6pt, oh? Please tell more. I'm interested. sundog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sundog

6pt, oh? Please tell more. I'm interested. sundog

---

I do not want the corrosive properties of BP or Pyrodex in any actioned guns . There are cracks and crevices that stuff will get in that you cannot get it out of . triple 7 has no sulfer and disolves with tap water , so thats half the battle.

I realize there are others that like and will use BP in cartridge actioned rifles. But I for one do not want it in my cartridge rifles. As I said earlier it's alright in a ML because I feel like I can flush it all out .

BP, Interesting bit on that "blow-up", I've never seen a black powder gun blow up, but suspected it was entirley possible. Its a very common bit of "knowledge" that you can't overload a muzzle loader, the excess powder simply blows out of the barrel. I think maybe Turner Kirkland did a lot to help this bit of misinformation along, you remember the old catalogs had a 10" section of barrel with breechplugs in both ends that was filled with powder and lit with a fuse......... no damage ?? Basically a pipe bomb and I'm damn glad I wasn't anywhere near it, must have been 700 to 1000 grains of powder ! Everyone read what was said there, but few carried the thought one step further to the fact that one or two more grains may have exceeded the bursting strength of the barrel and created a bomb.

Old Bob

I have always suspected that what caused that particular rifle to burst is that the old boy did not ram the bullet or ball down all the way on the powder charge so that when the charge detonated, the bullet was essentially a barrel obstruction and caused it to burst. I can't prove that, but from everything I know about shooting black powder (I started shooting it in 1970 so I've been doing it for a quarter of a century) that is the most likely cause of what happened. Even so, it isn't prudent to over load any powder in any rifle or handgun, which BTW, I've seen many more blown up than rifles. But when you shoot as much and as often as I did back in those days, you are going to see all sorts of things that you would not ordinarily see simply because you are around it all the time.

It is difficult for those who have not been a dedicated pistol shooter to imagine how much powder and lead you can consume when you shoot an average of 1000 rounds a week in practice and competetion. I remember one year we built two new X-ray rooms on the hospital and the lead sheets they lined the walls with were about 10 inches too long. So they cut off the bottom of those lead sheets that were about 3/16 th inch thick. The construction superentendent estimated that there was about 4300 pounds of dead soft lead. I was Assistant hospital administrator at the time and I asked him for it and he gave it to me. It took five picking up truck loads to get it all home without risking breaking a spring. Every tire shop in a 20 mile radius of where I lived saved wheel weights for me and I made regular rounds to collect them. I had and entire wall in my garage stacked with ingots of clean wheel weight metal. I shot up ALL of that lead from the hospital in about 14 months. Then the city pulled up about two miles of old lead pipe that was about 6 inches in diameter and I got about four truck loads of it before the police department found out about it and got the rest of it to make bullets for their pistol team. I was on the sheriff's office pistol team at the time, but it was city pipe and the city got first claim on it.

I mixed the WW's and the lead with ingots of pure tin or babbit to get a bullet that I could cast for use in my 45 acp and 38 special. I shot a tricked out Colt in the 45 stages and a model 52 S & W Master in the any centerfire stages. I shot a LOT of bullets because all I did was work, cast, load, and shoot. It was my life and it's ALL I did because it's all I had time to do. I had 47 acres of land that had part of an old dirt pit on it. It was the perfect place for a shooting range because it had 30 foot clay banks on three sides of it. A couple of friends and I built a 300 yard range on it and we had it set up for handguns and rifles, but we shot mostly handguns.

Various people heard about it and in about a year, there were 30 guys showing up on Saturday morning and we had a shooting match. Someone suggested that we go to NRA and seek a petetion for an NRA cetified range. I did that and we formed the Pine Belt Rifle and Pistol Culb which is still in operation today. I was the first president of it. I've been moved from that part of Mississippi for 26 years now, but back in those days, everyone I knew was a shooter and not just any shooter. They were SERIOUS shooters and we had some regional and national champions come from that group.

Like I said, that was back in another lifetime. But dam, I do still miss all those guys and the great times we had together. I think that is why those of us over at the Church are such a tight group. Many of those guys are former competetive shooters and serious hunter types now grown old and we like to hang out together and talk about the days when we could still see our sights and had the energy to shoot competetions in three states. We can't remember what we did yesterday, but we remember those wonderful days on the range burning powder and doing some pretty fair shooting too. And more's the pity that more men don't have similar memories instead of playing golf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Black Prince

Old Bob

I have always suspected that what caused that particular rifle to burst is that the old boy did not ram the bullet or ball down all the way on the powder charge so that when the charge detonated, the bullet was essentially a barrel obstruction and caused it to burst.

---

Many years ago I was working out of state, Las Vegas IIRC, when my Brother called. A mutual friend (now deceased, but not as a result of this) had just done that very same thing with his .45 or .50 ML and blew off his left hand and part of the forearm.

What made it all the worse for me is that our friend, Pat, started shooting BP because he knew how much fun I was having. I still get the "what ifs" sometimes when I see his widow.:(

You can get away with your hands intact if you do that using target loads of smokeless powders. I remember once the Sheriff's office had a pistol match for all of the people we usually did business with just so we could keep our hand in. On the firing line to my left was the county judge and he was a pretty good pistol shooter. He shot a Colt Gold Cup and he shot it well because he was a former military pistol shooter. We were on the line together and I heard his pistol make a strange sound when he shot. It just sort of sounded like "punk." I turned to him just as he reached up and racked the slide to eject the empty case and he immediately got on his sights as I said Judge, I don't think you ought to.... BANG. He fired the next shot right into the bullet that had jammed in his barrel as a result of the previous round having only a primer in it to fire the bullet just far enough up the barrel to allow the next one to chamber. I was looking right at that Gold Cup from about three feet away when it fired.

There was a buldge in the slide and barrel just forward of the ejection port and of course, it would not budge to open. It runied that Colt. He sent it back to them but they wouldn't put a new slide and barrel on it because it bent the rails on the frame so bad. I don't know what would have been the result had he been shooting brown box hard ball or some commerical ball stuff. I might not be here if he had or he may not have had a hand or a head for that matter.

Back in the days when Dillion first came out he didn't have all the nice little safety devices on his presses that he has today. There was always a danger when using progressive loading presses and when I'm on that Dillion, I lock the door to my loading room and make sure there is no cell phone down there. I keep all my atention on what I am doing because it is so easy to make an error using them. Today of course, Dillion has neat stuff added to his presses that make them much less likely to throw a double charge than they once were 25 years ago. Or the thing that always happened to me was to run out of primers and load about 50 cartridges before I noticed powder running out of the cases in the finished box. Now when I run out of primers that neat little buzzer goes off and I know to stop and put in more primers. That sucker loads bullets so quick that I am always out of primers it seems.

Those of us that have shot a lot have learned safety habits that have become part of our DNA and no habit is more important than having good ammo and that comes from good (safe) loading methods and techniques. The first time we loose sight of that, we pay the price and that is very often very high. It is why I sometimes get labled being overly cautious by those who haven't seen happen what I have. But I don't know how a man can be too safe around something that will blow your hand or head off. And just like drinking and driving, if you care about your buddy, you don't let him do it even if he gets a little pizzed at you at the time.

Here is Mr. Trenk's article on blackpowder loading

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-result...dick_trenk.htm

In any original arm, I would never use anything but BP. Trip 7 and Pyrodex will generate higher pressures than BP, esp Trip 7. As to corrosiveness, well, Trip 7 can be very nasty stuff if left in a bore for any length of time, especially so if it comes into contact with ammonia such as is found in many smokeless bore cleaners.

BP by itself is not especially corrosive. Common water will render it harmless. If you use very warm to hot water, and if you dry the gun thoroughly, BP is not going to be a problem. When you consider that it will shooot well using just 8,000 to maybe 12,000 CUP compared with much higher pressures with Trip 7, BP is THE way to go in original firearms. That's my opinion YMMV but I doubt it.:mrgreen:

Black Prince;
Dern good post! I am with you all the way! A person CANNOT be too safe...

I raced motorcycles for ten years and I wore a helmut both on and off the track. I also ABSOLUTELY wear my seat belt in my auto. I have done many things that are considered dangerous but I understood the risks and took precautions. When I rappelled, I watched my ropes with GREAT care. No piece of questionable hardware was used at ANY time.

I reload many calibers and have for many, many years. I have fired more rounds in a year than most would do in a lifetime. I still have all of my fingers and toes (and eyes) and hopefully will take them to the grave with me. The only serious ammo failure came to me with FACTORY 30 06's. I had two catastrophic case failures from the same lot. I buried the rest of that lot!

Dale53

Yes sir. Mistakes made in the shooting business are usually permanent and made only once. Certain body parts are necessary for us to function and it isn't good to go around putting holes in them or blowing them off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Black Prince

Sundog I probably ought not answer this, but here goes anyway. If you didn't want to know, then don't ask.

Loading black powder is about as much an art as it is a science. There are certain laws of physics that are indeed science, but they are used in conjunction with caution, brains, and experience with each INDIVIDUAL black powder rifle to determine what load shoots best in it. To be able to do that effectively, you need information. Now you can trust your rifle and your life to what some guy tells you on the Internet, or you can get information from reliable sources that print manuals and have pressure guns and ballistic labs available to them. You decide and you pay the price either way. But I tell you straight out and up front that if you don't want to do black powder loading right, you might better take up golf because BP is NOT like loading smokeless powder. It is NOT a progressive burning powder. It is a class "C" EXPLOSIVE and it acts and reacts a LOT differently to various situations than does smokeless powders. If you are confident that the one loading manual you have covers the subject to your complete satisfaction, then I'm happy for you. But you should know that your life could depend on that information and your understanding of it.

The first misconception about black powder is that you can't over load it. WRONG! The first time I ever heard that was a man loading his BP rifle the day before hunting season. It was the first time he had ever done it and the clerk at Wal-Mart told him to load it with a "hand full" of powder and don't worry about it because it would only burn the powder that could be burned in the length of the barrel and all excess powder would simply blow out the end of the barrel.

As the guy was loading his rifle, I went to my truck and got my spinning rod and came back. As the man got ready to shoot his rifle, I asked him if he had ever shot that load before. He said no. Then I suggested that we stick the rifle in the fork of a nearby tree and tie one end of my fishing line to it and back up to pull it to fire the thing. He thought that was a good idea and about six of us standing there all backed up and he jerked the line and shot the rifle. Pieces of it fell all around us and it's a wonder someone wasn't hit by flying parts. It completely blew that barrel off of that rifle into small pieces and split the receiver. You can imagine what would have been the result had he had his face behind that when he pulled the trigger. So much for trusting people you don't know to tell you how to load black powder.

I suggest in the strongest possible way that you read the one manual you have and know all it says about loading black powder. That you state you have already done that and yet come here and ask basic questions about loading techniques would lead any reasonable and prudent person to think that you either don't have a good loading manual or that you have not studied it because if you had a good manual and studied it, you wouldn't have basic questions about how to load.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now, but that is my best advice to you as a beginning loader of black powder. Black powder is very unforgiving and you will only make one serious mistake with it and we are going to hear all about it on the 6 O'clock news.

Here's the deal, you need brass, dies, press, BP powder measure, a 24 to 30 inch drop tube, a compression die, dial calipers, and the bullet and load (from a good loading manual) you intend to try. Size the brass, put in new primer, set the powder measure using an accurate scale, throw the change, slowly trickle the powder down the drop tube into the case, put a wad over the powder and push it down as far as you can using finger pressure and maybe a pencil with a soft rubber erasr on the end of it. Using your dial caliper, measure the distance from the top of the wad to the top of the case. Then measure the distance from the base of the bullet you are going to use to the crimp groove on the bullet. Subtracting the distance from the top of the wad to the top of the case from the distance from the bottom of the bullet to the crimp groove is the amount of compression you will have to put on the powder column to seat the bullet to the crimp groove. Compress the powder, insert the bullet and seat it. Check to BE SURE there is no air space between the bottom of the bullet and the powder or wad. You are finished except for test firing to check for accuracy.

Once you insure that the load is reasonably accurate, you can begin to experiment with seating depth always insuring that no air space is present in the load, and with different powder charges always working up slowly and closely observing all the usual signs of building pressure. If you have a chronograph, ( A Chrony is cheap life insurance) the velocity numbers will tell you more about pressure than any visable signs on the brass since velocity is a direct function of pressure i.e., if you observe a jump in velocity, you have a corresponding jump in pressure. That is one of those laws of physics that is science and it works EVERY time.

Using the above outlined approach, you should encounter no situations where you or your equipment is at risk and that is the responsible way to load black powder or smokeless for that matter. Try it and let us know how you do. It's always educational to understand how a load is developed and the steps in accomplishing that. I have learned a lot from other loaders following their process, BUT I was WELL VERSED in the proper way to load BEFORE I considered their approach and I suggest that you consider doing the same.

All the best to you partner.

---

I just got an old 50-70 TrapDoor. been all over this forum to figure out loads. I have been loading smokeless powder since the mid 80's, and have loaded in excess of 1.5 million rounds ( I know sounds high, but we had a Type 6 years ago), but have NEVER loaded a single black powder round. Thanks for your advice, will order some manuals first and THEN if I have a question will run it by all of you, stay SAFE!!!