Martini-henry mark iv

Hello,
I just purchased a Martini-Henry Mark IV in 577-450. I have been over on the Single Shot forum asking about loads and bullets. Most of the loads mentioned use BP, I was also looking at the idea of using smokeless power. I have some IMR3031, Trail Boss, and some .458 cast boolits I use for my 45-70. I have never paper patched before, I have been lurking on the forum and reading posts. I hope that I can use some of the components that I already have, makes my wife happier! Thanks in advance for any and all help and suggestions.

Good to have you with us. :drinks:

I'm looking forward to the paper patched Martini. I seem to recall it being said it's a very strong action - can't stake my life on it.

When I lost my new set of hornet dies, I set about finding an alternative and someone told me of his uncle seating boolits at the range into a 'paper cup' in the case neck. I developed a pretty effective way of doing it. His paper was loo paper, I used paper hand towel. Nothing to do with paper patching, I know but one never knows when that trick might come in handy.

Anyway, all the best in your endeavour.

303 Guy,
Thanks for the hello. I'm looking forward to being able to shoot the Martini. I have never owned one of these and think it will be all kinds of fun. I just want to be able to shoot it without hurting it or me. Also the lower the cost of each shot the more I can afford to shoot. Thanks in advance for any and all help and suggestions.

For SMOKELESS patching, first slug the bore. Size the bullet to BORE diameter +.001/..015. Patch with 16# paper. Size to GROOVE diameter +.001/.003 or as large as will fit the throat. Good place to start.

Pdawg shooter, Thanks for the info, I guess I really need to slug the barrel before I get ahead of myself. I put one of my .458 boolits nose first into the muzzle, it stopped at the first band. Does that sound like I might be able to use them even if I need to PP? Once again thanks for the help.

Clarks359,

The MH MkIV usually has a groove diameter around .470-.472. The seven-sided Henry rifling is notoriously difficult to measure. You can probably use IMR 3031 in a reduced load but I prefer SR 4759. Some others use IMR4198 and Ross Siefried's 1/3 smokeless for black and dacron wadding formula.

You can easily paper patch the .458 diameter bullets up to size and use them. The MH has a very long, tapered throat to accommodate black powder fouling. A bit oversize is no problem. Yes the actions are sturdy but also 130+ years old. Hot-rodding these old war-horses is asking for trouble.

I have found the Lee .475-400RF bullet cast from 1/3 Wheel Weight alloy and 2/3 pure lead, to shoot very well in both my Martini Henry MkII and Mk1V. The mould costs around 20 bucks and casts easily. I lube them with Lee liquid alox (2 coatings)

Another tip I'll pass on about loading and shooting the MH 577-450: Index your cases when first firing and there after. Many MH breech blocks are not perfectly perpendicular to the bore and case heads become slightly bent out of line. Indexing prevents this from becoming a problem. We see this with old rolling blocks as well.

Errrggghhhh!!!
I do range officer duties and do the black powder day.
The boys with the Martinis who use black swear by dry wrapping and a bit of tallow wax lube on them. They patch to the bore + a bit.
They even hit the big black dot on the targer occasionally!!!!.

Some used duplex loads of fast smokeless and home brew Black powder that sometimes smelt a bit uriney. :)
Haven't seen them for a while thou.

At least I don't have to put up with the endless "smokeless is impossible" and you have to "patch to bore not groove".

Miss them thou

You'll need a pith hat so you can shoot the Zulu's.
Learn how to make a British square and all that.
Barra

Thanks for all the help and info.
Curator, thanks for the tip about indexing the cases. I would have never figured that out by myself. When you use that Lee boolit do you PP or use it as cast? Which powder and how much? How is the recoil with this load? I would like to find something that wasn't to harsh, I would like for my wife and son to shoot this rifle also.
Barra, I have never been to a range with all BP shooters. I can only guess at the clouds of smoke and the smells. But being different is what keeps us going. Thanks to everyone.

The Lee .475-400RF is shot as cast with Lee liquid alox lube (two coats) My load is 23 to 25 grains of SR 4759 and a dacron "tuft" to hold the powder against the primer and get good ignition. I do not size my brass and these unsized lubed slugs are a nice "thumb fit." Recoil is much reduced compared to the service load of 480 grain slug and 85 grains of FFg black powder. If fact it is actually fun to shoot. Accuracy at 100 yards is as good or better than the service load but issue sights do not contribute to precision. A taller front sight blade is usually required as these guns shoot quite high. Apparently the recruits were expected to aim at the belt buckle for a head shot at close range.

Curator,
Thanks for the help and load info. That sound like a load that would be mild enough for everyone to shoot. I'll try to remember to aim at the belly button. I was hoping to get to the range this weekend, but still waiting on the brass and dies. I like the idea of not having to size the brass, the longer it lasts the better. Once again thanks for your help.

Curator,
A couple more questions I forgot to ask. The SR4759 powder is a IMR number? Also I was looking on the Midway website, they only list a Lee .476-400 mold. Is that the same or should I try other places? Once again thanks.

I got my brass and dies on Friday, didn't try to load any rounds yet. The .458 bullets are a tight in the case necks. I think when I fire these the neck should expand out to the chamber. Then I need to patch the boolits to that diameter. Can't wait to get to the range and put lead down range. Thanks

Quote:

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The SR4759 powder is a IMR number?

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The answer to this one is yes.

303Guy,
Thanks for the answer. I thought it was an IMR number, I bought some over the weekend. Hopefully I can load some rounds later this week and go to the range on Saturday. I will try to remember to take pics and post them. Thanks

First fire form your cases, then set your bullet diameter with a paper patch to just thumb seating without sizeing the case necks. You can get away from sizeing this way and the brass will last almost forever. Use pure lead for the bullets, paper patch, then run them through a press mounted sizer, lube the paper before sizeing. You will find this size of bullets is somewhat bigger than bore size, but will do very well in the Martini's forceing cone. The toolman

Toolman,
Thanks for the info. I think after the cases are formed I will have a better idea about the boolit size I need to use. If I can patch them and use thumb pressure to seat it will make the cases last a whole lot longer. Thanks Larry

clarks359:

Yes, the Lee .476-400 is the correct mould. Sorry for the confusion. I found this bullet to shoot best in my MkIV which has a large bore. They drop from my mould at about .480 cast from 1/3 wheel weights, 2/3 pure lead. With two coats of Lee liquid alox lube the bullets are a nice friction fit in fireformed 577-450 cases made from 24 gage brass shot shells.

Curator,
Thanks for all the help. I getting to borrow one of these molds from another forum member. After I fire form my cases I will try to cast some of these boolits and see how they fit my cases. Larry

Hi Curator, I will give that Lee boolit a try. I have a Mk IV also and am only now learning about bore size differences.

I bought one of the 475-500 gr. moulds from Martin at X-ring services and found a load of 4759 like yours. 23 grains gave me around 1050-1070 FPS with this book it. I went up to the 25 gr. charge but that’s not a recommendation. I haven’t tried real black yet (yeah, I know-terrible) as I already have a bad back and a big load of black sounds too punishing some days. Sure is a fun gun to shoot.

Rule 1: Black Powder ONLY in a antique rifle not proofed for nitro.

Rule 2: Read rule 1 first!

https://i.imgur.com/X53xURLl.jpg

Slugging the bore of a seven groove barrel is a waste of time without specialist metrology equipment.

https://i.imgur.com/80hZCOd.jpg

The Lee 476/400 bullet is a bit oversize,however ,if you dont care to spend hours wrapping bullets in paper,and dont want to spend a fortune on custom moulds ,then this bullet is the budget way to go ......Lee mould,reformed 24ga CBC cases,Lee 480 Ruger die set (neck sizing only ).and Lee 577 shell holder.......The whole lot to shoot a Martini for under $100......I use a two powder smokeless load ,which has worked for me for many years,no wads or packing needed.........As to the "no smokeless" brigade,for more years than the round was loaded with blackpowder,it was loaded with cordite.(1895-1965)

John K, I have duplicated your loading regimen exactly and I am interested in more info, PM sent.