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I just bought this new rifle yesterday. The barrel is marked "blackpowder only", not that I would consider shooting smokeless gunpowder in this cartridge. Should I try paperpatched bullets? Should I use a wad or grease cookie? Any recommendations for specific bullet molds?
:castmine:
might want to start with this bullet (or similar)http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...57317&CAT=4135
and 90 grs of 2f blackpowder.
Unless you're single loading and using a patched bullet that is quite a bit under bore diameter , they don't work so good with leverguns.
Greetings
As with all rifles find out for sure what the throat diameter really is.
I shoot several old Winchesters (1876, 92´s 94´s) with BP and I have always found that a near throat diameter boolit shoots best. If the throat is .462 I would consider a .460 cast of 40-1. This mix boolit readily bumps up to throat diameter and easily swages back down as it gets to the narrower groove diameter. You have to stay a bit loose at the throat due to fouling but the more under throat diameter you get you will start loosing on accuracy...
Cookie.. depends on boolit and if it carries enough lube for the barrel. I find if my particular boolit is a bit short of lube I smear the nose with a bit more before loading.
Wad.. I place a cereal box wad under all BP boolits. Sometimes 2 if needed if a recovered boolit shows the base is pitted from the BP. This is usually in large bore rifles which yours qualifies. I tend not to buy anything I can make myself and cereal boxes are easy to find.
Mike in Peru
thanks guys! :)
I was just reading a copy of Lyman's Blackpowder Handbook and Loading Manual. On the table for .45-90 on page 313, it lists the #457125 500gr bullet with an asterisk next to it denoting "for single shot rifles only".
I am wondering why as I thought the 500gr cast bullet was the original load for the 1886 Winchester rifle and I am sure that my new 1886 Winchester is made of stronger steel than the rifles produced in the 19th century.
The orginal bullet was the 300 gr, altho for a while Winchester did offer a 350 gr bullet (45-85) and a 405 gr (45-80), but the 500 gr bullet takes up to much case room when seated to the depth needed to cycle thru the 86 action.
the round nose will rest on the primer in the front , not a good thing.
I will have to see if the shop will let me exchange them for lighter bullets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don McDowell
Yes, the 500 is a bit too big (long) for the 45-90 and is not original to the 45-90 Win lever ammo anyway. You'd be better off, as has been posted, with a 325 or 425 gr +/- bullet.
Since it is Miroku manufacture I woudn't feel too ashamed or historically incorrect shooting a gas checked bullet. If you go that route you get a twofer... BP or smokeless. BTW the modern repros by Miroku likely are stronger and built to tighter tolerances than the originals ever were.
RCBS makes a fine mold for both of those GC bullets in the 325-425 gr range. I think RCBS lists them as 300-FN and 405-FN. I have both and both drop a good bit heavy.
Some threads here and elsewhere about the 330 Gould (Lyman 457122) in your rifle. I'd be happy to send you a handful next time that mould gets hot but I'm looking at the Ranch Dog 350gr or the RCBS mould Don linked to.
Here is the deal with the original Winchester rifles in 45-90 v 45-70.
Not only was the chamber longer on the big 1886 rifle chambered for the 45-90 but the twist was a good deal slower too. Bullets used were between 300gr and up to 350gr.
Winchester’s model 1886 claim to fame was it was the first model they were able to offer in that large and popular caliber. In those days there was an idea that express rifles were the way to fast and clean kills on large game (lager than deer). So the 45-90 was offered as the 2.4” case and a 32 twist. This twist is much slower than the Government 45 standard twist put in their model 1886 chambered for 45-70 Govt.
So, back in the day, even though an original 45-90 Winchester could be shot (in a pinch) with 45-70-405 rounds, accuracy would not be as good as with the lighter bullets. Moving up in bullet weight from there, using the surplus Army 45-70-500 would make that slow twist barrel shoot even worse.
The take away with a modern ’86 in 45-90 is to find out or measure the twist on your rifle and load for it accordingly. It could be that it was barreled with the same barrel stock they use on the 45-70 rifles they put out. …or not.
i agree...the twist will dictate what size...length boolit is going to perform best for you. that being said...if you do have an 18 to 22 inch twist and are hung on doing a shoulder beater load then go to the rcbs moulds as has been mentioned and bring home a 45-500 fn/gc mould and im bettin you will get enough bp in behind this monster to have all the punch/power you will want to withstand. prolly get around 70 grains powder behind it and ill attest to a 520ish boolit humping along with 70 + grains black as some kinda load....have fun and let us know your progress...please?...and photos of the rifle as well pilgrim!!!
And, if you do this with a 520ish boolit also let us know how your shoulder is doing!Quote:
Originally Posted by bigted
That would be interesting! A 86' shootin 500+ grain bollits with a CRESENT STYLE buttplate....................
As Wayne mentioned: "let us know how your shoulder feels after a few rounds".
RRR
Exactly, knock yourselves out shooting 500+ gr bullets out of a 45-90 M86. Reason to do it?- I've no clue.
In the end, because the bullets need to be securely crimped in the case, the bullet nose length, from tip to crimp groove, is going to limit which rounds will feed through the action because of OAL. The next limiter is twist and/or accuracy??? The next limiter is recoil???
I don't believe the recoil would be quite as miserable as some are trying to make it. First off to load a 500 gr bullet short enough to feed thru the magazine probably isn't going to allow for much more than 70-75 grs of black. So that's not that much more than a 45-70. Surely couldn't be anyworse than some of the smokeless loads some folks think they need to shoot thru 45-70's..
Agree for sure. I have an old button mag 1886 45-70 that I used to single feed 540gr Tom Ballard paperpatch bullets with smokeless. Offhand plinking, rolling around 12" log firewood sections was great fun. The shoulder was no worse off than banging away with a 12 gauge for the afternoon. I know some people have trouble with the old butt. The cresent butt just never did anything but fit me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don McDowell
45-90/500gr BP load in an 1886 shouldn't be too much of a thumper, not at all unpleasant in a Sharps-and mine's not a heavyweight. 500 grainer over a stiff charge of smokeless in a Guide Gun WILL give you a good thumping if that's what you're looking for. If you're using a scope and wearing glasses you might want to set the glasses on the bench for the first shot.;)
You didn't happen to buy that gun in Western Colorado, did you?.
LOL...so i regularly shoot the lyman 520ish boolit ahead of 70 grains black powder thru my lite Winchester hunter model [8 lbs] with the extreme crescent Winchester style butt-stock with no ill effects. i withstand the recoil from this combo very well and im no recoil fanatic...i like my rotator cuff! i also had the browning hunter model that is the Winchester twin and it were gouged out to accept the 45-120 case....[would still have this beast if the chamber was cut correctly ] i shot this with the exact cresent plate with no ill effects after i got the hang of snuggling the curve around my arm instead of IN my shoulder.
this 70 grains powder with the 500ish boolit in a fairly lite rifle will NOT tear yer arm off like the hot smokless rounds will that others refer to. as for the length i still refer you to the rcbs boolit that is designed for lever guns and most of the boolit hangs out inside the case.......in 45-90 you should get the 65 to 70 grains powder in there behind this boolit. i load my 458 winny [ which is a 45-2.5 inch case compared to your 45-2.4 inch case ] with this boolit and get 75 grains powder behind it for a puff 458 load...fun watchin others at the range when i touch off a scoped bolt gun with black powder.
have fun 'sixgun'. no matter what you decide to shoot in her it will be fun im bettin. its true tho that the 300 - 350's are what is going to be the historic correct boolits in yer '90'. the Winchester 45-90 is a small bit different than the sharps 45-2.4 cartridge tho ive heard that both have very similar chambers.
bigted, It's good to know that the 500gr .45-90WCF can be used in an 1886 Winchester. I will likely go with the 300gr cast bullets made for this rifle when I use up the 500gr cast bullets that I have on hand.
guess i neglected to mention that the "Winchester Hunter" model is a hi-wall model 1885 Hiwall rifle...a single shot.
just mentioned the Lyman as a reference to shooting a 520 gr boolit ahead of 70 grains bp as tolerable indeed. i can NOT get 70 grains powder in behind the rcbs boolit in my 45-70 cases.... as most of this boolit is inside the case and the boolit length prohibits using any usable amount of black powder with [ if memorie serves i got maybe 50 grains in there to compress behind this boolit]...however the 45-90 case will be just long enough to allow the rcbs to be loaded ahead of this excellent boolit.
you will still be prohibited in using the 457125 boolit in your "86" as 2 things are fighting you...1st is the length of the boolit that rides ahead of your case will make it impossible to work thru your action....2nd is the round nose is going to be harmful as it will bump against the primer in the tube mag of the "86".
just didnt want to be misunderstood here with facts that are incorrect.
Ok, that clears it up. Thank you much. :)
sixgun,
Without repeating my previous post :(, if you are going to shoot only 45-90 (45 2.4) BP loads in this gun, then you can load and cycle thru action most any flatnose bullet AS LONG AS THE NOSE FROM TIP TO CRIMP GROOVE IS NOT LONGER THAN ABOUT .4". In reality the 45-90 BP is not much different in, ballistics, recoil etc. from the 45-70 with the larger bullets because the M86 action is length limited- no matter if it is a 45-70 or 45-90.
Original SMOKELESS ammo was offered for the ORIGINAL M86 until about 1920. Your gun certainly exceeds the original in strength. So no reason to completely discount at some time in the future shooting some milder smokeless loads in it. For that loading the GC bullet is much better than the plainbase.
If you check the twist rate in your bore and it is the same as the originals (slow) then shooting heavier bullets will likely be counter-productive anyway so heavy may become academic. Lots of posts in the various threads about shooting REALLY heavy bullets in some applications- but usually few details about accuracy or even follow up reports. I guess the wow factor is enough.
So the 500gr bullets will work if they're flat nose and don't exceed the OAL? That is reassuring as I thought the .45-90 was more powerful than the .45-70 but it seems to be a whole lot less and I was starting to get buyers remorse.
:mrgreen:
Buyers remorse...NO! You have a fine rifle. The basic M86 action is length limited to about 2.8" OAL. The 45-90 in the M86 was designed as what's called an "Express" cartridge/rifle. That simply means designed to shoot somewhat smaller bullets faster. Since the basic J Browning M86 design has that length limitation of about 2.8" it was used primarily for the 45-70 and with bullets ranging from around 330 gr. all the way up to 500 gr. with a rifling twist rate of about 1:20". But for marketing reasons in a very competitive market, Winchester decided to take the basic 45-70 case length of 2.1" and extend it to the practical limit for the M86. (Winchester also designed an even more hot roddy cartridge for the M86, considering the era, the 33WCF.) The limit for the 45-70 family in 45 cal seemed to be the 45-90 (45 2.4). Which allowed for a much more "modern" type load that used a smaller bullet at a measurably higher muzzle velocity (Express). The down side trade off was (is) the big long bullets loaded in the 45-90 case take up so much powder space they begin to approach 45-70 ballistics. When Winchester designed the 45-90 they also decided to use a slower rifling twist rate of about 1:32. That is better for the smaller (shorter) and faster 45 cal bullets in the 300-350 gr range. But is usually not a fast enough twist for best stabilization the heavier 400-500 gr bullets.
So, the 45-90 in the M86 is a fine performer in the context of its purpose as an Express type rifle/cartridge. One thing you might do is to check the twist rate of yours. I don't know what twist specs Miroku used for the M86 in 45-90. If it is faster than the original rate of 1:32" then you can expect good results with bullets clear up to 400 +/- gr. And, if in the 1:20" range then it will stabilize bullets up to about 500 gr. but as covered earlier, with the heavier bullets, it will have ballistics basically the same as the 45-70. Hope that helps
I think you have a wonderful rifle, Sixgun Symphony, just not one fond of hurling heavy chunks of lead. The graceful Sharps replicas will gladly do that for you. The 1886 is a bit more modern design designed to throw lighter boolits a bit faster than the Sharps and with less time between shots.
sixgun...i also believe you have a wonderful rifle. it is important to know that the different 45... model rifles from the early days all have a spot in history and were built for a specific reason in the evolution of firearms development. each model will make sense when you take the context of when it was made and from what does it evolve. no one rifle will fill all the spots of desire.
ill try at an over view here...the muzzle-loader was fooled with first by a guy named Ferguson and he carefully machined a drop breech that screwed down from battery with the trigger guard.
next came the re-build of the Springfield rifle with a new invention called a trapdoor receiver. this became popular with the military...[ a sure success storie with everything they adopt]. there was a cartridge chambered in these before the 50-70 but memories fail. then after the 50-70 came a new faster cartridge called the 45-70. this fired a 400ish boolit at around 1300 fps and the navy round fired a 500ish at around 1100 fps....both with 70 grains powder with a liter load of 55 grains for the carbines that were and are very lite for the troops to carry.
next came a very enlightened man named Mr. sharps. he invented and manufactured a new breech block that didn't screw out of battery but instead dropped in the fashion of the early Ferguson rifle without the screw down drop...instead he brought us a method that would carry on thru the current day covering such rifles as the Winchester hi-wall...model 1885....thru the current ruger number 1 rifles that drop in the same fashion . a very strong breech setup that would and will handle much more pressure then almost any type breech developed since then...including the ever popular bolt action
the Winchester...[with the help of a genius named Browning ] came up with the next popular action developed after the drop breech that sharps made popular only developed a slimmer breech with the hammer being behind the breech block instead of beside it making the hammer fall very much faster and the firing pin a direct inline development instead of the transferred type firing pin that had been the norm.
browning/Winchester had a development called the lever action invented first by Alexander Henry with the softer brass receiver .....these actions would allow a fella to..."load on Sunday and shoot all week".
the next favorite action was invented with the new favorite style called the bolt-action.
at any rate your rifle comes in around the middle of all this and someone will chime in with corrections to this brief over view but all i wanted to relay is that your beautiful rifle was meant to fill a void at the time and as such with a small bit of questions and study you will come up with the intent of your rifle and if you stay in this expectation...you will be a happy camper for sure. it will fulfill your expectations if you know what it were intended for in the day it was manufactured.
have fun with your rifle Sixgun...and i will for one look forward to reading about your success with this fast handling lever action chambered for the most... powerful-cartridge-in-a-lever-action ...of its day.
have a hoot
Well said, Bigted. Firing these old guns and their repros is like touching history. Once you understand when they came along and where they were used it becomes much more than a firearm.
I have experimented with my 45-90 with different size bullets to determine what it will stabilize. My gun is an original 86 with the 1:32 twist. It will NOT stabilize the LaserCast 405 gr. bullets. I fired 5 shots at 50 yards and the only bullet that hit the paper keyholed. The rest tumbled and never hit the 8.5x11 paper or the box behind it!
Interesting though, I had some cast bullets that were 407 grains, but due to the alloy, were slightly shorter than the LaserCast 405 gr. Bullets. Those bullets stabilized with some signs of wobble. The Greenhill formula was spot on with these bullets. The length of the bullet determined what will stabilize with that slow twist rate.
My gun prefers the 330 gr. bullet over the 375 gr.
I have a question, I am new to Black poweder cartridge rifles, I just bought a new Winchester 1886 in 45-90, on barrel stamped Black powder only, if I keep the pressures equal or less than black powder cartridges there should be no problem right? Anyone advise on a good reloading book for the 45-90? Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geobru
None of this surprises me. Use of the government load was an important objective with the 86 design, as the 81 Marlin would do it, and the magazine is safe with that round-nosed bullet at that sort of pressure. It might be that a flat nose becomes more important when more heavily recoiling loads are used.
Winchester and Marlin had an altercation about ammunition. The 81 Marlin had a record of magazine explosions in Army trials. I don't know if they overcame this by design, but Winchester did with Mason's cartridge hook, which handled the rounds more gently, I believe with a weaker magazine spring. Both companies also made their cartridges with small primers to reduce the risk, but when Winchester reverted to large primers, with a slim chance of exploding a Marlin, an acrimonious correspondence ensued.
The 86 action will only feed rounds about 0.4in. longer than the .45-90 case length, and longer will produce a particularly troublesome sort of jam. In the bottlenecked rounds (even slightly bottlenecked like my .40-82) it isinadvisable to let a cast bullet protrude into the powder space, so for practical purposes the distance between case shoulder and cartridge overall length is the bullet length you get. With the straight .45 rounds a long bullet, if the rifle can stabilize one, just encroaches on powder space and increases recoil. But there is a big difference in how much recoil is tolerable in an 86 Winchester used for long strings of fire from the bench, and used the way it normally used when it was a state of the art hunting rifle.
Rifling twist shouldbe checked in your rifle before you invest heavily. The .45-70 generally has a16in. or 20in. twist, which should be fast for any bullet you are likely to use. Early .45-90 rifles were 32in., precluding the use of bullets over about 330 gr., but in 1900 the standard twist for this cartridge changed to 20in., and will stabilize much heavier bullets.
The .40-65 and .40-82 have 26in. and 28in. twist respectively, unsuitable for bullets much over the standard 260gr., and although that is a good, serviceable bullet, it is not really along-range one. But when it came to introduce a faster twist Winchester managed it differently. The new rifle was entitled .40-70WCF, and its 20in. twist will stabilize 330 gr. bullets, with even better penetration on heavy game or brush than the other forties, which are none of them bad. Presumably the idea was to stop existing .40-82 owners buying the wrong bullet weight and complaining "My gun don't shoot." This one is complicated by cartridge reference books parroting an inaccurate shoulder measurement. It simply is a .40-82, with a slightly tighter chamber to the actual rather than specified maximum they actually were making the case.
I don't know the OP's rifle or what it is made of, but I doubt whether that black powder warning is really necessary. In a sense it certainly isn't, for you can use black powder equivalent smokeless loads in very nearly anything, including the much weaker 73. In a well made 86 of good materials you undoubtedly can step up the velocities considerably, although there is little need for it on deer or even elk, unless you are trying for ranges that need a different rifle. Winchester, for a short time, marketed their own high velocity smokeless loads, mostly approaching 2000ft./sec., and I think it wasn't danger that stopped them, but people making do without buying the smokeless 94.
Greenhill's formula, for a bullet approximately the density of hardened lead or pure jacketed lead, is that the bullet diameter multiplied by the riflng twist, both measured in calibres, shouldn't come out over 150. But in practice, depending on shape, 200 will sometimes stabilize a bullet. A 32 in. twist is 70 calibres, so a bullet 1in. long should be a sure thing, and 1.3in. is a "maybe".
I've had a marginally longer 8mm. bullet stabilize perfectly at 1700ft./sec. and tumble at 1200. So in theory declining downrange velocity might produce deterioration with the "200" figure. But this isn't as much of an issue as it might seem. Bullets retain rotational velocity better than the do linear.
I wouldn't use paper patched bullets in a heavily recoiling tube-magazine rifle unless the case was cannelured behind the bullet. In a box magazine recoil the forces on the bullet, which are much less, could make it shift out of the case, which is no more than a nuisance. But in the tube-magazine is the tendency for them to move inwards, which is dangerous.
you shouldQuote:
I was starting to get buyers remorse
you should also sell the rifle to me as soon as possible.:razz:
The only reason the black powder only stamping is on the barrel is that there is no SAMMI specifications for that round, you absolutely can shoot smokeless in that rifle and do so safely! The 1886 in 45/70 is usually considered at least as strong, or even stronger, than the modern 1895 Marlin in that caliber and if you look at published data for that action in 45/70 you will find some surprisingly hot maximum loads for it, there is no reason to assume that the manufacturers are somehow and for some reason making the 45-90 weaker than an otherwise identical 45/70! I am not saying you should hotrod this rifle by using hot loads, rather I am saying there should be a wide margin of safety if you use sensible smokeless loads at BP pressures or even above. I regularly load those big '90 cases to near 28,000 PSI using data from Accurate Arms for their powder but it's used in a single shot rifle and 500 plus grain bullets, still even those pressures are well under the maximum load some manuals call for in the 1886 chambered in 45/70.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I have found this round to be an excellent cartridge for smokeless powder if that's what you want to use, in many ways it's even better than the 45/70 and due to the longer cases will give slightly increased velocities over the '70 at the same pressure levels with the right powders. Load data has been difficult to find for this round in the past but as it is becoming more popular there is more and more out there, I had a good discussion with the very helpful folks at Accurate and as a result I have built some really good smokeless loads using their powders and suggestions. I have also had excellent results with both Hodgdon Varget and H4895, all the powders I have settled on fill the cases nicely and seem to work well but a lot of folks seem to like 5744 in the 45-90.
You will often hear that you should never load smokeless powders in these old black powder rounds but just like it's little brother the 45/70 the '90 works extremely well with this type of powder. An interesting note about it being an old black powder cartridge is that it was in fact loaded from the factory with smokeless for far longer than it was as a BP only offering, it was factory loaded with smokeless from 1898 until the factory loadings were discontinued in the late thirties! The point is if you want to enjoy this fine old round but want the convenience of modern components then there is no compelling reason not to, you have a fine and very strong rifle that will easily and safely handle any moderate load your shoulder can stand!
If have never tried real BP in cartridges before then you really owe it to yourself to at least give it a try, you might find that loading data for smokeless is completely unnecessary! When I first started with my 45-90 I too was looking for smokeless powder loads to duplicate BP, I was not opposed to using it but I just didn't want to put up with all that fouling, stink, messy cleaning and damage to the bore and finish of my rifle. What I soon discovered was that none of that was true at all! Curiosity got the best of me and to see what all the fuss was about I loaded several rounds with real black powder, none of the phony stuff, and I was hooked instantly! I quickly discovered that all those so-called problems with BP are simply overblown and not real problems at all, sure things must be done differently after all it's really a different kind of sport but because it's different does not mean it's a problem. That time consuming, dirty and messy cleanup turned out to be none of those things, a quick cleaning with plain soap and water was all it took and since I clean all my guns every time I take them out it was no extra work at all and the soap&water vs solvents for smokeless actually made it easier IMO but either way the *problem* is imaginary. Also unless a person is just plain careless black powder will NOT eat away the bore or damage the external finish as I had been led to believe, simple cleaning that should be done anyway makes all that a nonissue, the stuff is just plain fun and need not be a problem at all!
Do yourself a favor and at least give it a try, it's quite different in a very fun way!
I would like to put my two cents worth in here. Garrett, and two or three other companies are making custom ammo for 45-70 that is safe in Marlin/Henry/ROSSI R 95, and any other clones of the basic Marlin action, that are powerful enough to take Rhino, Hippo, Cape Buffalo, and any other large game, but does not exceed SAAMI pressures for modern 45-70 rifles. In fact those animals have been take by three or four people using those lever guns and that modern ammo. They do not exceed SAAMI pressures for modern rifles, and all pressures are in the 40 thousand PSI, OR slightly lower.
The bullets are solids, or almost solids, like a lot of bullets for those animals.
I would assume they would work in the 1886, as that action is as strong or stronger than the basic Marlin style action.
I am considering the purchase of a 1886 in either 45-70 or 45-90. I do handload, so loads would not be a problem, and ya'll say in a pinch could fire 45-70 rounds in a 45-90 rifle.
I am going to have to print out some of the loads ya'll are using, and the powder. I do not currently use those powders for 45-70.
Where do you get brass for 45-90? There used to be a company, called Bell that made really long brass for things like the 45-120 and such. Are they still in business?
But I do know that cartridge length in Marlin and Marlin clones is 2.500 inches
LOL 13 year old thread, still lots of info!