Anybody here found a way around spending the crazy amount Brown-give me all your money-ell's charges for a tank to boil a barreled action? I only need it to boil stuff in water in the course of rust bluing.
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Anybody here found a way around spending the crazy amount Brown-give me all your money-ell's charges for a tank to boil a barreled action? I only need it to boil stuff in water in the course of rust bluing.
Weld up a mild steel tank, don't use galvinized or Stainless steel. Don't braze it together either as the copper in the brazing rod will ruin the solution.
Don;t forget a lid and make it deep enough so the water is a littel bit away from the top edge.
mild steel is correct. Make a angle iron frame to hang the tank off of, then you can use sheet stock which will cost less.
On the occasions I have had to do rust bluing, I made the tank from PVC. Cap the ends, and cut out an area to allow the metal to be put in. I like to pre-heat the metal some, but don't think it is necessary. Bring distilled water to a boil, and pour it over the metal immediately.
Midway used to sell them a few years ago, 30.00 IIRC.
I took Waksupi's advise, with a slight variation. I capped a long piece of 2" PVC, dropped the rusted barreled receiver in (After making it hot with a hot air gun), poured in a gallon of boiling distilled water, capped it, let it sit for 15 minutes, dumped the water, and voilá- perfect black. Carded, repeated 6 more times- perfect even blue. Looks like, well, a custom rust blue job. Thanks!
Lots of subtle details that spell the difference between a frustrating failure and a professional looking job. Once the learning curve was surmounted, it did indeed become a simple (but very time consuming) operation. The next one will go quicker and easier. I can't wait to start it!
(Yes, a proper boiling tank is on order.)
What type of blue worked with hot water? Was an oil/water bath necessary after that?
I did some hot bluing with my dad. The iron pipe stove (natural gas ) is gone, but I have the tanks.
Rather than welding, you can FOLD a tank from a sheet of mild steel. Try it out with a sheet of paper and you'll get the idea. You'll need a length of wood to act as a form. A 4x4 would be about right. It's just like wrapping Christmas presents. A large mallet and several large C-clamps will be needed. You might get a sheet-metal shop to do the two long bends on a press brake.
Hiram, rust bluing doesn't involve hot caustic baths. The steel is rusted in a controlled way (with proprietary solutions of very weak acids- someone correct me if I'm wrong on that score) and then put in boiling water which merely converts the red rust to black, which is then carded off (with a soft wire wheel or steel wool) to reveal the black stain (for lack of a better term) on the surface of the metal. When I say "rust" don't think of it as the garden variety of rust we all know and love. The rust in this case is very fine almost velvety in nature. If you let it get really rusty, you've screwed the pooch and you must start over.
gnoahhh: do you have a recipe that worked well for you?
Yes. The recipe called for sending virtual dollars over the internet to Brownell's and getting in return a bottle of their proprietary stuff. If by "recipe" you mean what steps did I follow, I won't bore you with all the mistakes I made thinking I knew more than the manufacturer. Follow the instructions to the "T" and you'll be alright. Start out doing a couple of the small parts to get the hang of it, then go whole-hog. I boiled the small parts in an old stainless steel stew pot. The real problems started when it came time to do the barreled action, which prompted my original query. I now have a tank on order from Midway, even though the PVC tube idea worked well.
This was quite an adventure. Now that I've gotten the kinks worked out I can't wait to do more. A severely rusted/pitted (but perfect working condition and very accurate) pre-War Colt Woodsman is tempting me. That whole thing can be boiled in the stew pot.
For anybody tempted to try rust bluing on their own, I have a couple of observations. First follow directions perfectly. Shortcuts will bite you in the ***. Second, it's very, very, time consuming. Hand polishing parts down to 400-600 grit while being careful to maintain crispness of lines and lettering is not a quick operation and will be mind numbing- but totally necessary. If all you want is a quick job, give to a gunsmith who will wheel polish it and caustic blue it. If you want old world looks and craftsmanship, do it yourself or be prepared to spend extra to have someone else do it.
Rust Bluing STICKY!??
This is of interest to me also. I too have a candidate for this in an old High Standard 22 semi-auto that was improperly stored by a previous owner. Thus it came to me as a good deal. I would like to do something like this to it. So if I have a vote, I'd like to see a rust bluing sticky too.
PVC rinse tanks and for the boiling tank take a 6" square tubing and weld on ends and then cut out the top. If you make a lid is also serves as a oven for dura coat. Mine from scrap was less than $20.
I slow rust blue / german bluing, i have a custom built tank made from stainless I also have a smaller aluminum tank for doing small parts and hand guns. aluminum and stainless are not a problem for slow rust bluing
Just to add a warning here about prep for bluing of any kind, lot's of discussion everywhere about how to get the blue to work properly but it seems proper prep just get's passing discussion. However poor preparation has not only caused failure of the bluing it has ultimately RUINED a great many guns being blued! Improper sanding and buffing has ruined many, many fine firearms and will undoubtedly ruin many more because once the crisp lines, lettering, etc have been blurred the damage is done and it's not something that can be undone- after the metal is gone there is no putting it back! There is much to know about how to properly polish a part prior to bluing, more than can be covered in a short post, so learning how to properly sand and polish should be the first consideration but unfortunately it often gets overlooked until the damage is done. Doing this right can be labor intensive and requires a great deal of attention to detail and the attitude that "aw that's good enough" or "that little bit won't matter" will result in poor results every time, remember bluing will only magnify blemishes and it will not hide ANYTHING! However by far the worst mistake is sanding away the crispness of the lettering and rounding off edges, if a person has any questions at all about how to do this properly they need to learn BEFORE attempting to work on anything of value because once it has been ruined it will stay ruined, the metal will be gone and the original crispness of the firearm will be gone forever.
Clean and degrease the barrel,Apply Ammonium chloride and distilled Water solution,stand in warm area until rusted,Boil for ten minutes in rainwater,Using 0000 Steel Wool rub off the Rust that has changed from Feric Oxide (Red) to Fero Feric Oxide (Black).Repete these operations until you have a deep black,Wash with clean Water, heat barrel and apply lubricating oil,Allow to stand for a couple of hours before wipeing off excess oil.For Browning do not boil just scald by pouring boiling water over the barrel.
P S.Plug off the Barrel at each end before starting.
wait why is barrel plugging needed? aren't the bluing chemicals only coming into contact with the barrel where YOU apply them? unlike a hot dip?
I am interested in the answer to this. I am prepping for my first bluing job, and I'd rather do it once than 3 times. I still have more questions about rust bluing, and I should start with the answer to one question than ask six at once!
I have done some rust bluing with Mark Lees product. I've used both his express blue and the slow rust blue, both work well. Instead of plugging bores, I've coated them with varnish and let it dry, before slow rust bluing. With an express type blue, which uses the boiling hot water, you don't need to plug or varnish the bore, as the process is faster. To remove the varnish from the bore I used laquer thinner on several patches to remove it.
Find yourself a copy of Angiers blueing. LOTS of different formulas there cold and hot.Aloha, Mark
a very inexpensive but durable tank for rust bluing can be made from a short section of aluminum rain gutter. You will need two end caps, a tube of silicone calk and a few sheet metal screws to hold the caps in place. I've been using one for many many years.
A couple of wooden stands hold it securely enough over camp stove burners.
I would not use this for caustic salt bluing but it is fine for rust bluing. http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessi...20tank%202.jpg
I would like to add that in case anyone might think of trying to use such a tank for caustic bluing the results would be a disaster! It would not just not work it would dissolve away almost instantly as the caustic solution would attack the Aluminum violently, it would start fizzing and splattering then just collapse spilling the contents creating a catastrophe!
I had a near miss a couple of years ago using a stainless steel pot for a small batch to blue small parts in, I noticed the solution started fizzing near the top of the pot then a couple of minutes later when I attempted to lift the pot both handles fell off causing me to drop the pot. Luckily I was prepared with rubber gloves and boots plus protective cover-alls so the solution (that had not reached full heat yet) didn't cause an injury. What had happened was that I failed to notice the rivets holding the handles to the pot were Aluminum! These simply dissolved away and allowed the handles to literally fall off and these rivets were waaaaay thicker than an Aluminum gutter.
Lots of very good advise and timely I am having a custom 98 Mauser built and all the old gunsmiths that I know that are still working don't do bluing anymore because of the unwillingness of people to pay for the prep time needed to do the job properly.
This last week I have been hunting for the bits and pieces for the hot tank, unlike most tanks I will have the heating tube in the tank with a burner firing into the heating tube, I have used this method of heating on large Caustic tanks and high volume salt water heaters for fish farms, very efficient it's not really needed on a little tank for bluing, but it will be a nice little project.
Regards Trevor
My tanks were built by hand, here is a blog post showing how we did it. The burners were made from iron pipe, we followed a design found online (Google is your friend here). The tanks were welded pieces of flat steel.
http://tincanbandit.blogspot.com/201...ing-tanks.html
I built all this stuff may years ago with the help of a friend that had a TIG welder. 6 tanks, 4 burners. The caustic tank is mild steel, others are 316 stainless. The two lower tanks on the stand on the left are spares.
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...986724/enhance
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...258481/enhance
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...924324/enhance
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...924354/enhance
3/32" diameter holes two rows. High volume regulators on the tanks.
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...258485/enhance
Better method I came across I've used for the last few guns I've blued. Get a section of 4" pvc, long enough to put the metal in. Get a plumbing flange to fit the pvc. This will be your most expensive part, around $25. Find a pot that this will set on top of, cast iron preferred.
Then get a piece of metal, or even wood, and drill a hole, or holes in it, to put in a wire hook to hold a barrel. Set the pot on a hotplate and bring water to a boil. Drop your small parts directly in the water to boil. Set the pvc and flange over the pot. Let boil for 25 minutes minimum. The steam in the tube does a fine job. The steam part actually takes only 20 minutes, but the boiling parts will need 25 minutes, as the water is not as hot as the steam.
Let cool, wash off any loose residue, then steel wool or wire brush. Repeat as necessary.
Good book but you a lot of the chemical names left me scratching my head. Essence of this and eye of newt, etc. Seriously though, when I was in school, we were given a cheat sheet that translated the names of ingredients mentioned in the book to the more common modern equivalents.
For anyone that may be interested, I have used the Neidner's slow rust bluing formula and it works very well. Our college chemistry lab would mix a gallon of it at a time for us. Much cheaper than commercial rust bluing solutions.
I don't have the ingredients handy, but a Google search turned up this:
https://www.finishing.com/136/81.shtml
Don't know if your question was answered, as it was asked years ago, but for anyone else reading this, the rust bluing acids will pit the bore.
Conventional wisdom is that plugging the bore prevents rust bluing acids from accidentally entering the barrel, which could/would result in pitting in the rifling or chamber. The course rust layer created by rust bluing acids is not considered to be desirable on the inside of a barrel.
Caustic salts create a very fine layer of oxidation and is not detrimental to the barrel in any way. This is why you can polish a barrel to 1000-grit, caustic blue it, and when your done you still have a 1000-grit polished barrel, but black. Rust bluing, in my limited experience, leaves a more of a matte surface finish although a carding wheel will burnish the metal somewhat.
I use a mild steel tank for caustic salts and a stainless tank and distilled water for rust bluing, as well.
I was told/taught that a stainless tank is preferable for rust bluing for reasons I cannot recall at this time.
I have been told that stainless tanks should not be used with caustic salts, due to the nickel and chrome in the stainless. I can neither confirm nor deny the validity of this.
If someone could explain the logic behind using mild steel for caustic and stainless for rust bluing, I would be thankful for the enlightenment.
Thanks for the response. I'll have to shorten the time up and not let it go for so long. I'd like to see if I can get more luster. I usually stop at 320 as well.
Matte probably wasn't the best way to describe the finish, but I'm struggling to find the right words... how about not shiny?
I've heard some guys say that they've gotten high luster finishes when rust bluing. I consider a high luster finish to be one in which you can see yourself in it. I don't know how that's possible with rust bluing. I've found highly polished surfaces don't rust well, and when they do rust, the polished surface is greatly muted.
Insofar as plugging the barrel, I'm starting to think it's unnecessary, if a person is careful when applying the solution. Still, old habits die hard. Hearing that you don't plug your barrels leaves me wondering if it's really that necessary for slow rust bluing. Seems to me it would be a good idea to plug the barrel and chamber when fume bluing. Any thoughts on that?
So ! now that I have my metal blued ( cold blue ) to the way I want it ,,what do we use as a protective coating ,, besides oil.
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.