Ruger no.1 45-70 trouble

I'm new in casting and are struggeling with precision/leading problem in my Ruger no.1

I got an NOE 460350 (RD) mold wich casts really good looking bullets. I size/gc them to .459 with a Lee sizer die and then pan lube with 50/50beeswax.

I have tested both water dropped and air cooled ww but the precision is, in my opinion not very good at about 4" in 80 yards (3 shots). I have an Aimpoint 1X so i don´t expect wonders but i feel there is room for improvement, especially as there seems to be a bit of leading going on at the muzzle. The current load is 50gr Norma 200, higher loads seems only to open up the groups.

I remember when slugging the bore (at about .4575) it felt like the barrel was opening up at the middle and then went tighter again at the muzzle. Could it be the barrel causing this?

I'm thinking of sizeing to .460 instead, just to crimp on the gc and see what happends. And maybe should i try some harder lube?

I really could use some good advice about what to try next.

//Kristoffer

My #1 works really well with a plain base sized .458 over SR4759 powder. The sights are OEM and even with me in trifocals it will do better than your 80 yd. score, not a lot but maybe 3.5" @ 100 yds. from a rest. No leading from air cooled WW. I've never tried a GC boolit. My handicap is my eye sight, the gun does well even with me hanging on the left side of it.

not to worry
what is your alloy ?
sometimes all it takes is a different powder and vavooom
I use imr 3031 and am getting excellent results
I use an alloy bout the hardness of st8 ww

Lots of areas to investigate. Slow it down a bit, size .459 or .460, change powders, use a different lube, and clean, clean, clean! I use some janitorial strength ammonia (10%) to swab out the barrel. If there is any copper left in there, the green / blue patches will tell you. Don't leave it in long. 3 - 4 minutes and swab it again. When they are free of color, clean the heck out of it with a good oil. Once free of copper, you can eliminate that as a cause of your problem.

Kristoffer,

Yes, make sure your barrel is free os any copper fouling, as this at times can cause a problem.

I am also shooting a #1, and had a new mold made by BABore (Bruce) here in the cast boolit forum.

He recommended I use a Lee "Style" push through sizing die of .460 dia and then a .461 sizer die in my luber/sizer.

My barrel is very nice, the lead or throat is very short, in fact had it opened us just slightly to allow for chambering an LBT 355gr boolit I was trying.

The 465gr Boolit from Bruce's mold, cast with 50/50 Wheel Weights/lead and water quenched as per Bruce's recommendations is out shooting/grouping the LBT boolit.

From what I could find before ordering this 465gr mold, 45/70s tend to shoot better with boolits of 400gr or more.

I totally realize some folk get great groups from lighter slugs, but for some reason - maybe a bit to much velocity ???? the 465 is out shooting the 355 in my rifle.

Leading -------- Could be a number of reasons, but after trying a number of lubes, at this point a lube called MML found here on the Cast Boolit Forum (the version with the bee's wax) seems to be put doing other tried.

Shot up a bunch of odds and ends about a week ago, and did get the barrel a bit warm, but had more signs of fouling or light leading then is normal.

With the MML, the barrel is beautiful after shooting with just a hint of fouling right behind the muzzle.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

my number one likes fat boolits and I use the Ranch Dog 350 as cast with no sizing at all and lube with LLA/JPW mix. No problems as long as I don't try to punish myself with velocity. I have settled on fifteen grains of Unique over large pistol primers. Nice load with good accuracy.

My Ruger #1 shoots cast bullets well but not as good as it shoots jacketed bullets. I have read that this is because of the shallow rifleing in the barrel. If I keep cast bullet velocity under 1750 fps the accuracy is quite acceptable with no leading. I size to .4595 and use Felix lube. I'm working with Miha's 380 gr. HP GC from a group buy and so far H4198 has given me the best results. Also remember that Ruger #1's are notorius for being sensitive to placement position on sand bags for bench shooting. I try to place mine on the front bag as close to the action as possible. This seems to add a little more consistency to fired groups. There is a Ruger #1 group on Yahoo.com where you can find a lot of answers to things you have questions about.

Nighthunter

Nighthunter,

I personally have not found the forend sensitive issue to be a problem with my #1 rifles.

However, a good number of years back, my first build of a #1 from a new barreled action resulted in a bedded and floated forend, and since that point I have bedded and floated all #1 rifles which have come my way.

This takes care of any potential forend pressure problems which may occur, although as said I have not had that problem even on my earlier rifles.

So, glasbed and float and forget any possible forend pressure issues.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

My #1 in 45-70, likes .459, and my pet load is 22-26 gr of 2400 under a 405 Ohas, or 385 Lyman round nose, with 1 gr. Dac fill. Not a recommendation, just what works for me. Good luck!
1Shirt!:coffee:

kristoffer

Norma 200 is in the same burning range as 4227, 5744 and 4198. So 50 gr of Norma 200 is a smoking load, probably upwards of 2000+ fps?

Leading at the muzzle indicates the lube is running out and/or not doing it's job. Leading at the throat would indicate a possible sizing problem. Suggest a change of lube 1st thing before changing anything else. I suggest Javelina lube. Assuming a "50/50 beeswax" means one of the '50s" is alox? All 50/50 lubes of such are not equal in their abilities. I use Javelina with cast bullets in my Siamese Mauser 450-400-70 (45-70) to 2400 fps with excellent accuracy and no leading using the GC'd RCBS 345-300-FN. I also use Javelina at 26-2800 fps with cast bullets in other cartridges with no leading.

Larry Gibson

Lots of good information here! :-)

The alloy is pure WW and the lube is witelabel 50/50 Bees wax (alox/xlox i think) http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/index.html

50gr Norma 200 with cci250 gives maybe 2000fps (51,9gr gives about 2140fps in an 450 marlin with 22" barrel) . It's Normas starting load for 350gr jbullets so i don't know if i want to go below it. I set the bullets so they touch the lands.

The rifling isn't filling up with lead but i can see it in the muzzle, patches doesn't get stuck and it "feels" pretty ok. I haven't got a big .45 jag so i will get one and do a real cleaning per your advice before continuing.

Which of whitelabel lubes would you recommend instead of 50/50? I think i will try switching lube first. If that doesn't do it i will test sizeing to .460 instead.

If that fails i think i will have to get use of my other mold NOE 460 500gr to get the speed down a bit :grin:

I really like the Ruger in 45-70, short and well balanced, not at all like the no.1 in 416 Rigby i had earlier. That was a real shooter and made holes touching each other (with jbullets).

//Kristoffer

Kristopher

Suggest 2500+ as I also use it across a wide range of velocities including 2500+ fps. I don't know how it works with pan lubing though.

Since 50 gr is Norma's starting load with 350 gr J bullets it may not be burning efficiently with cast as they offer, weight for weight, less resistance than J bullets. If you have 2400, 4227, 4759 or 5744 available you might try them with that bullet. I've used a lot of all of them with 300 - 385 gr cast bullets and prefer 4759. With top end loads a filler is not needed but with low end trapdoor 45-70 loads all benifti from a dacron filler.

For loads above 2000 fps with the lighter weight 300 - 385 gr cast bullets and 300 - 400 gr j bullets I've found RL7 to be a very hard powder to beat for top velocity at safe psi and excellent accuracy. If Norma 200 is what you got to use then you might increase the load although that might be pushing that bullet more than you want. I don't know the loading density of Norma 200 in the 45-70 case(?) so I don't know how much you can go up. Is that NOE bullet the one with the honking HP?

Larry Gibson

Larry

I have only used Norma because of availability, Vihtavuouri may also be an alternative and N120 looks like about the same burning rate as RL-7. Norma 200 leaves some unburnt powder in the barrel it seems but that might be solved with the fed 215m primer i believe. Load density (in 450Marlin with 22" barrel) with 51,9gr of Norma 200 is 98%. That should be about the same in the 45-70. I use starline brass.

The NOE bullet i use is the 350gr ranchdog type with lube grooves, no hp. They weigh about 360gr lubed and gas checked.



//Kristoffer

My No ! laminate SS loves the RD 350 .460-461 with20-1 alloy art about 1200 FPS 4759 23 grains. it shoots well with most powders.

My Ruger No1 in .45-70 had similar problems. Upon slugging the bore I discovered tight and loose spots like you have. Fire lapping cured the accuracy and leading problem

Kristoffer

Concur on the VV 120 to try but I have no experience with it in the 45-70. I do have limited experience with VV130 however with .385 gr GC'd cast bullets. It performed quite well at the top end of 53 gr at jus over 2000 fps out of another Siamese Mauser 45-70.

On the low end if you want a very comfortable and accurate load try VV Tin Star (N32C) at 14 -16 gr for a comfortable load between 1000 and 1250+ fps.

Lots of fun but sometimes frustrating working up good cast loads for the old war horse 45-70 in modern actions, especially when top end loads are wanted. Don't give up on the rifle or the bullet as both are good and will perform.

Larry Gibson

Kristoffer, the first thing I would try is an alloy superior to wheelweights. Purchasing alloy from a respected distributor should get you on the right road. In handgun shoot a lot of ww at 850 fps with Lyman Alox and don't get any leading but also don't get much accuracy. Changing up to quality 1:20, 1:10 or wheelweight and Linotype mix really tightens up the groups. More cost, better accuracy. I have heat treated straight wheelweights and gotten very tight groups, but at a much lower point of impact on the target even tho I was using the same powder charge.

It seems that VV 130 has about the same burn rate as Norma 200 and both RL7 and 3031 is a little faster than Norma 201. I will keep trying with Norma 200 and maybe go for Norma 201 to slow things down if not switching lube and changing bullet size helps.

I dont think i want to add any linotype as i want the bullets to work on large game. I'm assuming bullets of this type of alloy gets more brittle?

//Kristoffer

Kristoffer--

You could try making soft-pointed boolits using BruceB's Softpoint Casting method. This would give the best of both worlds--expansion in front and a harder drive-band area. I note no targeting difference between softpoints and homogenous castings in my Ruger #1 in 45-70 or the CZ-550 in 9.3 x 62.

The boolit is ALREADY 45 caliber--how much expansion is really needed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curator

My Ruger No1 in .45-70 had similar problems. Upon slugging the bore I discovered tight and loose spots like you have. Fire lapping cured the accuracy and leading problem

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Oh, i hope that i don't have to go there. How is Fire lapping done?

//Kristoffer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 9.3X62AL

Kristoffer--

You could try making soft-pointed boolits using BruceB's Softpoint Casting method. This would give the best of both worlds--expansion in front and a harder drive-band area. I note no targeting difference between softpoints and homogenous castings in my Ruger #1 in 45-70 or the CZ-550 in 9.3 x 62.

The boolit is ALREADY 45 caliber--how much expansion is really needed?

---

It's not expansion that worries me. I just dont want to take the risk having a brittle bullet that explodes upon impact :-? The tests i have done with a hammer on my WW bullets seems promising as they dont end up into small pieces unlike some WW/linotype bullets i tried the same with. That said i dont know the exact composition of those bullets though.

//Kristoffer

Take this for what its worth, I seem to remember that ruger's in 45/70 and possibly other calibers have two tight spots. One where the barrel band is and the other is where the front sight. My #1 in 45/70 has both. And needs a bullet larger than .459 as that is what the throat slugs out at. Frank

I ordered a .460 sizeing die from a well known manufactuer and got it a few days ago.

When i looked through it i clearly see that the sizeing part of the die is not centered. My earlier .459 looks much better than this one [smilie=b:

This can't be helping accuracy much?

//Kristoffer

Bruce, from BABore here on the cast boolits forum can put you in touch with another fellow on the forum that will make you very good sizing dies. Good price, quick, at least on my order, turn around, quality product.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

The leading could be a number of things. If nothing else works, maybe a light dose of fire lapping. As to the accuracy, most of my rifles including 45 - 70 show a marked preference for 20:1 lead & tin over ww + 2% tin, whether water dropped or not. I doubt if the harder alloy will even show much of a velocity advantage.
Grouch

Not sure this will solve your problem but I often get slight leading at the muzzle in my rifles if I drive them too hard. In my 45-70 I use IMR 3031 and 4064 all it takes is .5 - 1.0 grs. above my usual load to get that result. The 4064 will start to do it during hot weather with my regular load.

John

I load the RD 460-340 over SR4759 with great results. White Lable's BAC and velocity about 1700.

mine isnt a tack driver but it is a decent shooting gun. Its favorite bullets are bruces 420 and 465 lfngc. I cast them out of #2 and size to 460. It will shoot the 465 into about 2 1/2 at a 100 for 5 shots and the 420 into about 2 inch. Most other gas checked bullets ive tried are in the 3 inch range at that distance. It does not care much for plain based bullets and groups will open to 4 or more inches with them. It wont shoot along side my two marlins but its plenty accurate for anything a guy is ever going to hunt with a 4570 even at 3 inch. One other thing ive allways noticed about 4570s is that each one is very powder sensitive. Dont buy just one powder and expect miricles. At least give re7 and 4198 a good try. theres other good ones like 322, 335, 748, 3031, ect. But be willing to experiment.

>>>I remember when slugging the bore (at about .4575) it felt like the barrel was opening up at the middle and then went tighter again at the muzzle. Could it be the barrel causing this? <<<

I have a #1 in 45-70 that shot 3 of 5 rounds on a 24" square target. The other 2 round missed the paper and the resulting 3 shot group was about 18".
I thought about this one a long time and finally checked the bore with some unsized bullets cast at .461.
The rifle had a .001 tight spot at the sling band and a .0015 tight spot at the muzzle due to the front sight band.
I sent it back to Ruger and they put a new barrel on it at no charge to me.
After you get your barrel checked out you may need to send it back, however Ruger will ask you what ammo you are shooting. Make sure you test it with jacketed factory ammo so you can tell them what you used. They will not work on it if you complain about lead bullets and handloads.
If you want to try a load the is easy to get to shoot well try a bullet cast of 20-1 unsized with about 25 grains of SR4759.
Yeah it will be slow but it will be accurate.

For those very heavy loads, I'd try a bullet with more lube capacity and a diff. lube, a thou. or two bigger bullet, or slow it down a bit, but for heavy loads I wouldn't use anything faster then VV130. Your N-200 load sounds very hot and VV120 is very similar.

Fire lapping is pretty easy really. Cast some soft bullets (I melt fishing sinkers and cast them out of pure lead). You then roll them between 2 flat steel plates covered with 320 grit lapping compound. You then load them over a few grains of a fast shotgun powder. The goal is to get them out of the muzzle and little more.

After 15-20 rounds you reslug the bore and see if the constriction is gone. For your barrel, you want to get rid of the tight spot around the sling swivel band, but the one at the muzzle isn't necessarily bad, and I don't think I would fire lap it any more than necessary.

My first group after fire lapping was a clover leaf, with all three shots touching. My load was 57 grains of H335, CCI 200 Primer and a 434 grain Applegate WFN.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8048/8...9c19c8e9_z.jpg

My #1 in 45/70 has two tight spots, one where the barrel band is and the other is where the front sight is. Have shot some jacketed stuff and it seems not as tight as it used to be. Frank

I was "blessed" with a pretty good barrel in my #1 x 45-70. It has shot accurately with castings and J-words since Day 1, and now has about 3500 rounds through it. If it had tight or loose spots when new, I couldn't feel them while running a tight patch on a jag down the bore. Leading has not been an issue, with one exception that was my fault--not the rifle's.

I don't try to extract a lot of velocity from this caliber, though this platform enables a shooter to really pour the coal on if he/she so chooses. In a relatively light rifle like my #1, the price paid in recoil for the flattened trajectory gets too expensive too fast for me. Same goes for the Marlin 95 leverguns. The 400 grain-class boolits run to 1500 FPS remain reasonable in recoil, don't go trans-sonic ("Chuck Yeager Effect") within 175-200 yards, and shoot reasonably flat to that range. Just my view of the sitch.

>>> If it had tight or loose spots when new, I couldn't feel them while running a tight patch on a jag down the bore.<<<
I could not feel the tight spots with my rifle. I could feel them with round balls and with cast bullets left unsized.

To check the barrel I started out driving a soft unsized 500 grain bullet into the breech end of the barrel.
This bullet was driven into the rifling about 2 inches and was knocked back out.
The next bullet was driven into the breech continuing on to the tight spot at the sling band. When it passed this point the bullet fell to about 2" from the muzzle where it hung again. Then it was driven on through the muzzle.
Another bullet was driven past the sling band from the breech until it was loose between the sling band and the front sight band. This bullet was driven back past the sling band tight spot toward the breech. It then became loose and dropped out of the barrel.
In this manner I had slug diameter measurements for the breech, the sling band tight spot and the tight spot under the front sight band.