Ignition Problem with Ramshot Hunter powder

I have an 8-pound jug of Ramshot Hunter powder that I am working through. I am loading 300 Winchester Mag rounds. 190 gn Nosler CC and 66.8 gn powder. Have loaded and shot a little over 200 rounds out of the jug. I have noticed that I get a slight hang-fire at times. Seems to occur 1-2 rounds out of a ten shot string. It occurs with both Wolf LRPs and Wolf LRMPs.

Not having any additional primers to test, I have loaded some rounds with IMR 4831. Both Wolf LRPs and Wolf LRMPs have been used in the IMR 4831 loads. There has not been any indication of any hang-fires with either of the Wolf Prime types.

I asked Western Powders about the slight hang-fires and got the the following response:

The powder charge could be underloaded if the bullet is seated out to touch the lands or may not have enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place for proper ignition. The primer may be weaker than it should be. Ball powder is harder to
ignite than extruded. These are a few issues you may be experiencing.

Load density is 85%; that should be okay. Ogive is about 0.010" inch off the lands. Can't see neck tension being a problem. Chamber pressure should be about 48k psi.


Anyone have any thoughts on why it appears that I am having a problem getting a proper ignition with the Hunter powder? Guess it could be the Wolf primers.

I've used thousands of Wolf primers and I've found them to be among the best I've ever used. Its a shame they aren't available anymore, but I would highly doubt it could be the primers. Maybe crimp a few and see if that improves ignition.

Are you getting a good firing pin strike, could be the rifle or a headspace issue that allows the case to move on the firing pin strike, a thin belted case with a max chamber can do that. I have heard(?) that Wolf primers need to be seated very firmly, more so that 'American primers?

IMHO, and experience that using Wolf and Tula primers with ball powders that is known to light more difficult than stick powders will give you hang fires or misfires. Wolf and Tula primers are wonderful primers if used with stick powders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MostlyLeverGuns

Are you getting a good firing pin strike, could be the rifle or a headspace issue that allows the case to move on the firing pin strike, a thin belted case with a max chamber can do that. I have heard(?) that Wolf primers need to be seated very firmly, more so that 'American primers?

---

This one I can answer quickly; just happen to check the shoulders on ten fired and ten full length sized cases last week. The average setback on the sized shoulders was 0.0015" from the average of ten of the fired cases. The barrel was installed with a minimal headset and I thought it was time to check it. A solid primer strike.

It appears to be pointing to the ball powder since I am not seeing any problems with the IMR 4831.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Screwbolts

IMHO, and experience that using Wolf and Tula primers with ball powders that is known to light more difficult than stick powders will give you hang fires or misfires. Wolf and Tula primers are wonderful primers if used with stick powders.

---

I have had problems with Tula / wolf primers and ball powers. Squib loads and powder puff shots. Not always but only started to occur when I was on my last couple of hundred . I loaded 100 9mm with not one successful load. Using other primers same powder success. I tried leaving the remaining wolf primers in the hot sun for a couple of hours and then reloaded 25 which shot perfectly. Primers were getting a bit dated, about 10 years old and not stored that well. The remaining primers have worked well with no issues .

Nosler want the COL at 3.330" i dont know where this puts the bullet shank? But the bullet needs to be in full contact with the necks bearing surface. Trying to get closer to the rifling, bad idea.

Neck tension minimum is .002" Measure before and after seating a bullet. Has the outside of the neck expanded .002" or more, after seating?
The bullet is likely moving to soon at primer firing. A Lee Factory Crimp Die may help, but last thing to try. https://leeprecision.com/factory-crimp-die-300-wm.html

I would try increasing the powder charge to increase pressure. Watching for pressure signs.

Working pressure is 64,000 PSI

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor..._200909/100079

Quote:

---

We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads — we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings — probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectible to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays.

If I've recommended a Magnum primer in reloading data I've developed, it's because my lab results show it's needed.

---

A good read on primers.

The 190 gn bullet is bullet is 1.365" long. It is seated 0.338" deep with a COL of 3.490" This puts the bullet approximately 0.010" off the lands.

Will verify the neck tension tomorrow. Great suggestion.

Here is a hair-brain idea. A bullet touching or into the lands is suppose to add approximately 8k psi to the starting pressure. I should be in the 48k psi chamber pressure range now. If I load some rounds, for testing, that are 0 to 0.001" into the lands, there will be no doubt that the bullet will not move until the pressure starts to build. Max pressure should be around 56k psi then. See if the problem disappears.

I am trying to stay at predicted accuracy nodes. The next node is at approximately 60k psi (no lands contact). A little hot for what I am trying to do. But may have to do a few test rounds if I keep striking out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 243winxb

Nosler want the COL at 3.330" i dont know where this puts the bullet shank? But the bullet needs to be in full contact with the necks bearing surface. Trying to get closer to the rifling, bad idea.

Neck tension minimum is .002" Measure before and after seating a bullet. Has the outside of the neck expanded .002" or more, after seating?
The bullet is likely moving to soon at primer firing. A Lee Factory Crimp Die may help, but last thing to try. https://leeprecision.com/factory-crimp-die-300-wm.html

I would try increasing the powder charge to increase pressure. Watching for pressure signs.

Working pressure is 64,000 PSI

---

Yes, a good read. Some good info on primers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 243winxb

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor..._200909/100079

A good read on primers.

---

I am using a Lee Collet Neck Die.

I measured the necks on 10 prepped cases. Two measured 0.330". Seven measured 0.331". One measured 0.332".

I measured the necks on 10 loaded rounds. Seven measured 0.331". Three measured 0.332".

Looks like neck tension is something to take a harder look at.

I have a spare 300 WM seating die. Think I will back the seating rod off and set it to provide a crimp on the loaded rounds. Then see what happens.

One step at a time.

Do you think it was a high humidity/moisture problem?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driver man

I have had problems with Tula / wolf primers and ball powers. Squib loads and powder puff shots. Not always but only started to occur when I was on my last couple of hundred . I loaded 100 9mm with not one successful load. Using other primers same powder success. I tried leaving the remaining wolf primers in the hot sun for a couple of hours and then reloaded 25 which shot perfectly. Primers were getting a bit dated, about 10 years old and not stored that well. The remaining primers have worked well with no issues .

---

With ball powders, I always use magnum primers. Ball powder are a little harder to ignite than stick or flake powders or at least that has been my experience. james

Problem found, neck tension. I bought a Lee Collet Neck Die to test in my 243 win.

To much work to just size a neck. 35 pounds force on the RCBS press lever.

I been using bushing dies. They work perfect. Redding type S.

If I full length resize, the neck diameter is reduced to 0.329". I can get a 0.002" neck tension by full length sizing. Will work the brass a little harder.

The smallest neck diameter that I can get with the Lee Collet Neck Die is approximately 0.3005". That is with a lot of pressure. Will not get a lot of neck tension using the collet die. Should the collect die reduce the neck to the same diameter produced by the full length resizing die?

Polish the Lee collet neck die spindle down a thousanths and try again. That's what the collet jaws force the case neck against.

I was considering doing that. Glad to hear that you think that will work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BABore

Polish the Lee collet neck die spindle down a thousanths and try again. That's what the collet jaws force the case neck against.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pirate69

If I full length resize, the neck diameter is reduced to 0.329". I can get a 0.002" neck tension by full length sizing. Will work the brass a little harder.

The smallest neck diameter that I can get with the Lee Collet Neck Die is approximately 0.3005". That is with a lot of pressure. Will not get a lot of neck tension using the collet die. Should the collect die reduce the neck to the same diameter produced by the full length resizing die?

---

Is the 0.329" outside diameter?

The "approximately 0.3005" has me confused. How & where are you taking the measurement?

Bullet diameter should be .308" The mandrel should be smaller at .306" ?? But after spring back of the brass, will be less neck tension. Not .002"

Yes, you are right. This does not make sense. Will check tomorrow and see what I was doing.

The neck OD using the collet die should have been listed as 0.3305" not 0.3005". A typo. Meaning I get 0.0005" to 0.001" of neck tension using the Lee Collet Die. Full length indicates around 0.002" neck tension.

Made another discovery this morning. While rechecking the above data, I picked-up a bullet and measured it. The dial caliper indicated 0.305". That's not good. Checked the bullet using another caliper and it read 0.308". While the measurements above may not be accurate, the relative differences should be accurate. Guess I need to check all my calipers. I was making sure that the dial was zeroed before and after measurements.

Just to be sure, I checked some cases using the apparently actual caliper.

The OD of full-length resized cases was 0.334" to 0.335". The OD of loaded rounds was 0.337" to 0.338". Looks like a neck tension of about 0.003". That makes some sense.

Did not want to deprime cases to generate and measure collet sized cases; so I just measured the mandrel. It measured 0.306". So, the neck tension, has to be less that 0.002" on a loaded round. The rounds that I have unloaded were very easy to pull. Don't think there is much neck tension there. Polishing the mandrel to gain a 1000th or so is still a consideration. But, before I do that, I have one more test to do to verify in my mind that it is really a neck tension issue and not a powder and/or primer issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 243winxb

Is the 0.329" outside diameter?

The "approximately 0.3005" has me confused. How & where are you taking the measurement?

Bullet diameter should be .308" The mandrel should be smaller at .306" ?? But after spring back of the brass, will be less neck tension. Not .002"

---

I had 2 hang-fires or click bangs in over 50 years.

1. Old surplus military 30-06 ammo, a powder problem, from old age.

2. A 22-250- H450 powder- CCI mag primer. Powder started burning & just stopped. Powder was new, but seemed like the heavy coating, to control burn rate, retarted it to much.

Let us know if you find the problem.

It appears that neck tension is not the reason for the slight hang-fires. Since the collet die is producing only a slight neck tension, I seated ten rounds longer than the distance to the lands and let the bolt seat each round to just touching the lands. Just could feel some resistance as each round was chambered. No room for the bullet to move before a good powder ignition. Well, three out of ten rounds had the slight hang-fire. This is worst that observed in the past. But; it was 37 degrees F. That may be telling me something.

The 500 yard ten shot group was a little strange. First of all, only nine rounds printed. Not a clue as to where the 10th round hit. Nine round extreme spread was 13 1/4". Vertical spread was 12.5" for nine rounds. Horizontal spread was 9.5" for 9 rounds. There were three rounds that seemed to be outside of the general grouping. And, also three slight hang-fires.

The six round general grouping had an extreme spread of 5 3/4". Vertical spread was 5.5" for six rounds. Horizontal spread was 4.5" for 6 rounds. More along the expected results.

The earlier reference IMR 4831 load has produced no hang-fires in a ten shot group and an extreme spread of 6 1/4" at 500 yards. This is with the same primer that I am getting hang-fires with the Ramshot Hunter powder. Don't know the answer yet; but am getting closer.

I am trying to locate enough different brand LRMPs to test.

Hope you find different primers. :coffeecom

Have there been any developments since

I am in the same boat. I’m becoming convinced that Hunter doesn’t have good ignition unless it’s close to 100% case capacity or pretty high pressure. I’m shooting 180gr flat base Interlocks and 180gr SSTs in a Tikka 300 Win Mag and I’m seeing published loads from various sources starting as low as 65.5 and max of 73.4. Started working up at 66 and all the way up to 71 gr it was a severe hangfire or even no ignition. Only when I got to 72 gr did I start to get reliable ignition at all. I am not one to push max loads whatsoever and am hesitant to increase my charge from here but I might creep up at .5 gr. Intervals from here. I should say I have seen absolutely no pressure signs at all, I just like my barrels and brass to last a long time.

I’m thinking about ditching it and working up a load for H4831, which I have never had any problems with in any caliber whatsoever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pirate69

I have an 8-pound jug of Ramshot Hunter powder that I am working through. I am loading 300 Winchester Mag rounds. 190 gn Nosler CC and 66.8 gn powder. Have loaded and shot a little over 200 rounds out of the jug. I have noticed that I get a slight hang-fire at times. Seems to occur 1-2 rounds out of a ten shot string. It occurs with both Wolf LRPs and Wolf LRMPs.

Not having any additional primers to test, I have loaded some rounds with IMR 4831. Both Wolf LRPs and Wolf LRMPs have been used in the IMR 4831 loads. There has not been any indication of any hang-fires with either of the Wolf Prime types.

I asked Western Powders about the slight hang-fires and got the the following response:

The powder charge could be underloaded if the bullet is seated out to touch the lands or may not have enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place for proper ignition. The primer may be weaker than it should be. Ball powder is harder to
ignite than extruded. These are a few issues you may be experiencing.

Load density is 85%; that should be okay. Ogive is about 0.010" inch off the lands. Can't see neck tension being a problem. Chamber pressure should be about 48k psi.


Anyone have any thoughts on why it appears that I am having a problem getting a proper ignition with the Hunter powder? Guess it could be the Wolf primers.

---

I went to mg primers, no more problem lighting ball powder.

With the wolf or the Russian primers magnum indicates a thicker cup and not a hotter primer. Ball powders tends to be harder to ingnite so magnum primers are recommended.

.223 load experience.
WC 846 Ball Powder
Wolf Small Rifle Magnum Primers
Slight Hang fire on around 30%
Changed to CCI 400 no Hang fires

IMR 3031 Stick Powder
Wolf Small Rifle Magnum
No Hang fires

I now use Wolfs with my non Ball Powders

By the way I am using Magnum primers, so that’s not it. I still think it’s the load density. I loaded up a few with a tuft of Dacron to keep the powder tight against the primer and those had no problems. But we are talking about elk hunting with a .300WM, not light cast bullet loads so that’s not an acceptable long term solution. Moving to a different powder

I think Troy has it. Go up in charge