Black powder vs. Substitutes

Quick question for you gents who shoot primitive style muzzleloaders.

I stumbled upon what I believe to be a good deal on an old Investarms Hawken rifle in .54 caliber the other day.
I was really intrigued by the gun.
I love the look of the old stuff, and really love the length of the gun (it's fairly short). It's in really good condition, so I figure $100 was a reasonable enough price.


But my question is regarding the powder.
In my modern inline, I use Pyrodex.
I'm thinking in the old style Hawken, real BP would be more appropriate. It's a regular cap, not a 209 primer, and I've heard BP is easier to ignite.

So am I thinking correctly?
Is BP any easier or harder to clean than Pyrodex? I use Ballistol, so I'm sure it will do the trick just fine.
But I've never shot the real stuff before.

I would say $100 was a very good price. All I shoot is real black. Years ago with 1st ML used Pyrodex and had nothing but ignition issues. There is a a saying about going with real powder ( of something like that) and never going back. Quite true. Not difficult to clean. I do clean soon after finished shooting. Enjoy shooting that rifle.

I've got an Investarms .54 with a short barrel that I haven't shot in years (decades). When I was shooting it on a regular basis, I used Pyrodex RS exclusively with good results, shooting both .530 patched round balls and .54 HB Minié balls. Then, as now, Pyrodex was available everywhere, but black wasn't. The only ignition problems I had was when I tried to use Remington caps with many misfires. Everything was fine with RWS or CCI caps. Clean up was easy by removing the barrel from the stock and taking out the nipple. I'd clean it in the kitchen sink with hot water and a few drops of dish detergent. Afterwards, run a few dry patches down the barrel, use a pipe cleaner and q-tips in the vent, then run a few patches with any gun oil. Wipe off the stock with a damp rag then dry it.

Does your rifle have a chrome lined barrel? That makes cleaning mine easy.

I would say, if you can get black, why not use it?
If you have an inline designed to use pellets, that is another matter, of course black will work in that too.
It is all corrosive, so why not go with the real deal?
I somehow ended up with 3 cans of pyrodex but haven't use any yet, always had black powder.
At some point I will use it.
I haven't shot muzzle loaders in years, but made a New Year's resolution to remedy that!

Pyrodex will work in your new gun and yes, flipping buy it for $100. Black powder is not hard to clean. When you get home from the range https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UegItShDG00
Bore butter is your friend and so is simple green. Run a patch down the bore when you notice its getting hard to load. Followed by a few dry patches. Now all you have to do is get the appropriate sized round ball mold and you'll be up and running. By the way old blue jeans make great patches.

Here she is. I like it.
I've been wanting to play traditional muzzloaders for a while and was just waiting on the right deal.
Just measured the barrel. It's 23"


https://i.imgur.com/0kqECOL.jpg?4

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Originally Posted by Arkansas Paul

Here she is. I like it.
I've been wanting to play traditional muzzloaders for a while and was just waiting on the right deal.
Just measured the barrel. It's 23"


https://i.imgur.com/0kqECOL.jpg?4

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I would say you got an excellent deal, you will have a lot of fun with that.

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Originally Posted by elmacgyver0

I would say you got an excellent deal, you will have a lot of fun with that.

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I hope so. If the accuracy is acceptable, I plan on chasing whitetails with it come October.
I've killed several with an inline, but it would be awesome to get one the old way, especially with a ball or bullet I cast myself.

Looks like a dandy rifle. Welcome to traditional BP shooting! Start the meeting with new members saying “ Hi I’m (insert your name), I’m a Blackpowder a holic”. Lol

Never been a fan of Pyrodex or any other substitute for BP. At first the marketers and writers said it was not corrosive, then was not as corrosive, then is actually more corrosive than BP. Stuck with BP. I started getting in to my shop guns owned by folks that swallowed that line of non-corrosive, hook line and sinker. One great big rusty and corroded mess.

I use the old traditional method of cleaning, 5gal bucket of hot steaming water with Dawn, outside, a lage soft cloth swab on a cleaning rod, nipple out, breech plug out, make a hand pump of the swab, Run clean hot water through the scrubbed clean barrel, nipple, etc, Heat dry, oil after. Remove and clean the lock plate/hammer, in and out, re-grease.
I cleaned a BP gun inside "my wife's house", just once. Stunk up her whole house....not a thing you really want to repeat, if you expect a happy wife.

If new to BP shooting, get a bottle of rubbing alcohol and make extra large patches, swab after every shot with a dripping wet swab, you get a clean barrel for every shot and instant evaporation. Load with the hammer down to prevent the nipple filling with powder, fire from the cap has to go through the nipple into the chamber.

Let the rifle tell you what it wants. test with pyrodex and several graduations of BP also several brands IE Olde Ensforde, Swiss, Goex, Wano. Different thickness and types of patches. Maybe different dia balls. Let the rifle tell you what it wants to perform at its best.

Cleaning real BP isnt a big chore hot dish soap water In a bucket dip breach end of barrel in and pump with a tight fitting patch this will pull the soap water thru the nipple breech and barrel in both directions A muzzle protector is a good idea here. A minute or so of good full length pumps the water will be discolored and a second batch dosnt show much change. Dry and oil. This pulls and pushes the water out under pressure getting into crevices well. Dry well a blow dryer and dry patches. then a light oil or a wax oil based bullet lube patched into bore to preserve it. Wipe down the outside with a patch and oil the wood with a good stock wax.

These rifles can be a lot of fun. A possibles pouch, Powder Horn, and patch knife Really set them off and you can make them yourself.

I think you got a tremendous deal. I have a Tradition's cap lock Hawken from the mid 70's that shoots great with Pyrodex RS. Just make sure you clean everything real well RIGHT after shooting.

I just now realized that I posted this in the paper patching subsection. Should have been just the muzzleloading one.
Sorry bout that.

Thanks a lot for the replies.
I'm going to visit a black powder supply store on Saturday and see if they have any black powder in stock.
Can't wait to shoot this thing. It will be a completely new experience for me.

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Originally Posted by Arkansas Paul

I just now realized that I posted this in the paper patching subsection. Should have been just the muzzleloading one.
Sorry bout that.

Thanks a lot for the replies.
I'm going to visit a black powder supply store on Saturday and see if they have any black powder in stock.
Can't wait to shoot this thing. It will be a completely new experience for me.

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Let us know what you find in reguards to powder .
My first revolver was a cap & ball and in 1970's time real black powder was easy to get. I still have a small stash of real black powder from then . Might want to get a little more though . I have had no experience with the "substitutes" ... but was wondering what was available in the real stores ... I hope real black powder is still a viable option !Let us know what you find !

$100 for that Hawken Rifle...that was such a great deal that in some states it may be considered Highway Robbery !
Nice going , great looking smoke pole :drinks: !
Gary

Ignition can be an issue with any 'powder'. If RS is readily available use it while you search for the Holy Black. Some nipples can be the culprit for bad or delayed ignition. Here are some sites for BP shooting: Track of the Wolf, The Possible Shop, Buffalo Arm to name just a few. Muzzleloader forums exist for more info. And don't forget the ubiquitous "yube tube" videos! Of course good advice has preceded this post.

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Originally Posted by trebor44

Here are some sites for BP shooting: Track of the Wolf, The Possible Shop, Buffalo Arm to name just a few. Muzzleloader forums exist for more info. And don't forget the ubiquitous "yube tube" videos! Of course good advice has preceded this post.

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Thank you very much trebor. I will definitely be checking those sites out.
I've heard of Track of the Wolf, but I'm not familiar with the other 2.
I'm a fiend for YT videos. I've found some good stuff already.
I always have trouble around this time of the year with figuring out what to do with myself. Football season is about to be over, deer season is over. Looks like this spring I'll be playing with black powder.

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Originally Posted by gwpercle

Let us know what you find in reguards to powder.
Gary

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I was fortunate.
They were pretty well stocked with 2f, 3f, and 4f.
It was crazy. Just a little store a guy runs out of his shop, but it was the most well stocked place I've ever seen. They have everything you need for black powder shooting from cleaning supplies, to parts, to powder, to projectiles, and even everything you need for casting, including pure lead. And the prices were very fair. I picked this pound of powder up for $28, which was less than I expected. I'll be back for sure.

This is the brand of powder they had in stock. Not top shelf from what I've researched, but should get me started.

https://i.imgur.com/pCRPME2.jpg?2

Shuetzen is considered by many to be better than most except for Swiss. Certainly better than Goex or even worse, Pyrodex, which is MUCH more corrosive than real BP. I have been shooting BP in SASS shoots for over 10 years and the only guns that ever rusted were the ones I used Pyrodex in. I got 5 lbs free form a friend that was moving, but wish now I had just thrown it away.

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Originally Posted by Springfield

Shuetzen is considered by many to be better than most except for Swiss. Certainly better than Goex or even worse, Pyrodex, which is MUCH more corrosive than real BP. I have been shooting BP in SASS shoots for over 10 years and the only guns that ever rusted were the ones I used Pyrodex in. I got 5 lbs free form a friend that was moving, but wish now I had just thrown it away.

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I love Pyrodex. I haven't used it since the 70's when it first came out. Through the years I have been given about 1/2 BP guns that were seriously damaged due to not cleaning after use with Pyrodex. I was able to part them out for about $450 per profit.

black Mg when it was available was a good substitue for real black.

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Originally Posted by M-Tecs

I love Pyrodex. I haven't used it since the 70's when it first came out. Through the years I have been given about 1/2 BP guns that were seriously damaged due to not cleaning after use with Pyrodex. I was able to part them out for about $450 per profit.

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I tracked down the formula for pyrodex.

45% potassium nitrate
9% charcoal
6% sulfur
19% potassium perchlorate
11% sodium benzoate
6% dicyandiamide
4% dextrin
1% water

Look familiar? 60% of it IS Black Powder. The other 40% of it is probably there just to keep the BATFE from calling it an explosive.

I make this:

Potassium nitrate 64.3%
Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) 32.1%
Charcoal 1.8%
Iron oxide (red) 1.8%

You can actually mix, ball mill and puck it the same way as you do Black Powder, but there is no binder in it so the "wet" method is better if you don't want to add dextrin. Its like 10% more power with about half the residue. If you add the Dextrin the power drops to where it basically is the same as BP. It is marketed commercially as "American Pioneer Powder" but Vitamin C was not discovered until 1912 and not commercially made until after WW2 so the Pioneers never used it. Its also called "Golden Powder" (as Yellow powder is something else) but every batch I have made is a light slate grey as I don't wait for it to turn yellow. It does not chemically change so there is no point.

Ascorbic Acid costs over twice as much as any of the other components but its still about a quarter of the price of buying powder. Only real advantage is that you can use petroleum based bullet lube as there is no Sulfur in it. Disadvantage is the high ignition temperature which makes it (along with Pyrodex) not a good choice for flintlocks. I do not know if it is less corrosive as I have never left a gun dirty long enough to find out.

I mainly made this to see if I could, and if it worked. I can. It does.

Something I've done is to use a priming charge of black powder.... about 10 grains. I've had ignition problems with a couple of rifles with the subs, and not wanting to just dump them out, plus the fact that it's an hour and a half or more round trip to get bp, it's a usable solution. None of my side locks have given any trouble going this route,too.

Use SWISS or SHUTZEN. ff is good for a 54 cal Yea its pricey, but it works. You can save if you order 10 pounds at a time ( used to be free shipping if orders were 10 pounds or more) and if you practice a lot you will use it up quickly. Interesting Rifle you have there. I like the double set trigger but the Barrel is so Short, which ids great in thick woods, you wont need much powder as it wont all burn with a round ball or go Loaded for Bear as they say with double round balls. Great close range load . try a Heavy Conical and you may have a hard hitting Big Deer Moose Rifle. I would try and keep the range 50 yards or under which is mostly as far as I can see thru the thick woods anyway.

I have a traditional Hawken style rifle in 54 cal., it uses a cap and I use black in it
I also have a more modern rifle that uses a shotgun primer and I use Blackhorn 209 exclusively a black powder sub
so I am with the same mindset as you

A lot will depend on the gun and what it shoots best . I will add a vote for black powder .

NOW that is interesting, I shoot primarily Pyrodex which is as I just found out mostly Blackpowder...The reason I choose the Pyrodex is the availability, black in my area is scarce and that was before Biden and Covid now it is almost impossible. As far as which is "Better" I find Pyrodex just as reliable and accurate as black, provided one works up the load. I know I know the "HOLY BLACK" snobs will scoff, mock and ding this reply. Truth is truth

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Originally Posted by Kentucky146

NOW that is interesting, I shoot primarily Pyrodex which is as I just found out mostly Blackpowder...The reason I choose the Pyrodex is the availability, black in my area is scarce and that was before Biden and Covid now it is almost impossible. As far as which is "Better" I find Pyrodex just as reliable and accurate as black, provided one works up the load. I know I know the "HOLY BLACK" snobs will scoff, mock and ding this reply. Truth is truth

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Ditto. I only shot Pyrodex RS in a short barreled .54 Investarms carbine, the same as Arkansas Paul, the original poster has. It would routinely cut cloverleaves at 50 yards with patched .530 balls lubed with ATF or .54 Minié balls lubed with beeswax and beef tallow.

Three of us bought those carbines from an ad in the Shotgun News back in 80s as we tired of dragging around the full size rifles we built from kits. Two 50s and a 54. Chrome lined bore seemed like a good idea. I played with 2f and 3f in my 54. Drilled and tapped the barrel and added a top mounted receiver sight. Used 100 grs of 3f in '87 to put a poly patched round ball through this deer, side to side. Plenty of power and accuracy (and recoil).

Attachment 323030

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Originally Posted by TheBoat

Use SWISS or SHUTZEN. ff is good for a 54 cal Yea its pricey, but it works.

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Actually I'm in a good spot in that regard.
I'm getting black locally at a similar price to what Wally World sells Pyrodex for.

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Originally Posted by firefly1957

A lot will depend on the gun and what it shoots best . I will add a vote for black powder .

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I have made Black Powder since 2019 when I learned how to do it. I now know how to make four different substitute powders. Each, however, has a drawback that leaves real black powder still the best overall choice. My latest is 'White Powder", just to see if I can make it and make it work. Its not better, just different.