45-70 Govt. Effectiveness on game animals between 1150 and 1350fps.

Hello guys! My inquiry is more to do with the following. I am using a 420 grain ranch dog style flat point.

What is your observations of the 45-70’s effectiveness with a 420 bullet going 1075 fps vs. A bullet going around 1300 fps?

I have a light weight Pro-hunter rifle with a 20” katadin barrel mounted on it.

Once the velocities get up around 1350-1400 fps, the snappy recoil starts to diminish the enjoyment of shooting the rifle.

If I keep velocities around 1150-1250, it is MUCH more pleasant to shoot!

I live in Northern Alberta Canada, and will shoot elk and some deer with it.
Have any of you noticed a big difference in killing potential between these velocity ranges?

I know the the 45-70 will kill game either way, but how noticeable of a difference does it make?

The last elk I shot with the 45-70 was with a 350 hornady flat point at 2222 fps average. It was certainly a decisive kill!

I would expect no problems with killing power at 1200fps. My load out of my guide gun is a 405 cast at 435 going about 1500 and it's had no problem killing deer. Understand elk are larger but it exited the deer just fine.

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It will do just fine. An untold number of deer, hogs and an elk have fallen to a similar load.

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Originally Posted by sharps4590

It will do just fine. An untold number of deer, hogs and an elk have fallen to a similar load.

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Not to mention a similar load almost drove the American Bison to extinction.
Hunt, and kill away!!
Rick

This is just my opinion. The higher velocity makes longer shots a bit easier, and not substantially (some, but not substantially) increase the lethality of the bullet! Likely, either will give an exit wound. The higher velocity round will give a little larger, temporary wound channel! Any bone fragmented by the higher velocity bullet “may” travel a bit farther due to the somewhat higher impact velocity causing more secondary damage, caused by the higher velocity impact! memtb

Thank you gentleman! I will proceed to hunt with the 1100-1200fps load that shoots the best. ��

There is a rn385gr I use in 45/70 and 458 win it is a lot easier on the shoulder and hits just as hard I have used it many times if you wish to try a little lighter bullet

I see no reason to drive your 420gr bullet over 1200 to 1300 fps. Sighted 1" high at 100yds it should easily be good for 150yds. 200 yds with a little practice with the load. Weight = momentum. Momentum = penetration. I base this on my own in the field experiences.

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Originally Posted by memtb

This is just my opinion. The higher velocity makes longer shots a bit easier, not substantially (some, but not substantially) increase the lethality of the bullet! Likely, either will give an exit wound. The higher velocity round will give a little larger, temporary wound channel! Any bone fragmented by the higher velocity bullet “may” travel a bit farther due to the somewhat higher impact velocity causing more secondary damage, caused by the higher velocity impact! memtb

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When you try to push velocity for flatter trajectory, you need to make a 300 fps increase in speed to appreciably flatten trajectory in any cartridge. The gain is not usable by the common rifleman.

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Originally Posted by waksupi

When you try to push velocity for flatter trajectory, you need to make a 300 fps increase in speed to appreciably flatten trajectory in any cartridge. The gain is not usable by the common rifleman.

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You’re probably right.....430’s @ 1790 fps from my GG recoils less (felt recoil) than my wife’s hunting rifle. But, she’s not your common “rifleman”! :bigsmyl2: memtb

Never shot an elk but a 405 cast boolit going about 1050 will certainly go thru a large sized whitetail from stem to stern. In the front and out the rear end, ole whitey may take 3 steps. Very little recoil and not loud out of my Henry. It works.

I shot a Trapdoor rifle using a 535 gr Lee Cast bullet at the low end for 3033 and can not see a difference in the killing power. I will say it is much easier on my shoulder than a max load. I shot the same load in a Sharps and a Browning. I like using black powder as it has a push not a rap when touching it off.

What velocities do you get with the low-end load of 3033?






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Around 1200-1250 fps using a 405 RNFP hard cast in my Marlin 95. Have not checked my single shoot Sharps as son shot my unit.

Attachment 288747 doe shot with a ruger #3 in 45-70, 400 gr CB at 1400 fps. dead is dead. my trackers name is ray charles.

A few ago, in Saskatchewan, 525 pound wild boar. Winchester M86, 45-70, 350 grain bullet, 70 grains KIK FFG..............80 yards.
More than enough power for most game in NA.

Attachment 288750 Attachment 288751

This was a 305 grain JHP from.a Winchester 1886 at 62 yards, never took a step.

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Originally Posted by RickinTN

Not to mention a similar load almost drove the American Bison to extinction.
Hunt, and kill away!!
Rick

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Perfect Reply!!!

Not to mention "ethics" had no part in the old west.

The Indians kept a many a soldier pinned down from 800 yards at Reno's defense line with the 405 after Custer fell. They kept troops pinned down with Henry's and Winchester's out to 300 yards. THAT is an Awesome example of what is considered "Effective"!

"Effectiveness" depends on what one's objective is and the ability of which to complete!

I can't remember the exact speed of the original BP load used when the Army was developing it, and the trap door Springfield.
I think it was about 1300 fps.

Anyway-
In the Army's extensive tests for accuracy and killing power:
If the marksman did their part, it would take a man off a horse at 1,000 yards.

Of the 3 deer I shot with mine, none took another step.
One received a 75 yd. quartering shot through the vitals, upon exit, the 405 at 1400 fps blew its front leg off.

Use the softest lead you can. Even though the boolit is large in diameter, mushrooming helps. You are not looking to go in one side and out the other.

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Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE

Use the softest lead you can. Even though the boolit is large in diameter, mushrooming helps. You are not looking to go in one side and out the other.

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Soft lead expands like a hollowpoint. If it hits fast and expands a lot, you will blow the deer to smithereens up close!!!

Heck, I used a 240gr Hornady SWC-HP from a 44-40 at 1,425fps @ 65 yards and was a bit overkill.

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Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE

Use the softest lead you can. Even though the boolit is large in diameter, mushrooming helps. You are not looking to go in one side and out the other.

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I have to disagree with that statement. I always want complete penetration, two holes to leak blood. Whatever the quarry, they'll not go far and will leave a generous blood trail to follow. My experience with thirty years of hunting with a 12 ga. slug gun confirms this.

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

Soft lead expands like a hollowpoint. If it hits fast and expands a lot, you will blow the deer to smithereens up close!!!

Heck, I used a 240gr Hornady SWC-HP from a 44-40 at 1,425fps @ 65 yards and was a bit overkill.

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He’s looking for low velocity rounds. The Boolits that shot all the Buffalo didn’t expand like hollow points. He will also be hunting elk too.

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Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE

Use the softest lead you can. Even though the boolit is large in diameter, mushrooming helps. You are not looking to go in one side and out the other.

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Pure lead is as soft s you can get

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Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE

He’s looking for low velocity rounds. The Boolits that shot all the Buffalo didn’t expand like hollow points. He will also be hunting elk too.

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Soft lead as was used by the cavalry did't expand?

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Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE

He’s looking for low velocity rounds. The Boolits that shot all the Buffalo didn’t expand like hollow points. He will also be hunting elk too.

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https://www.africahunting.com/thread...8/#post-505009

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I was very heavy into cast bullets 20-25 years ago using them in .30, .358, and .45s. They are accurate and I never had a failure when using them on game either. I've only ever recovered 2 and these were from elk and cast from very soft lead, about 5 BHN. Below are the pics from left to right: bullet before patching, patched bullet, .45/70 loaded round, bullets taken from elk that were against the skin on off side. 7x57joe

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I have never recovered bullets hardened to 10-12 BHN and .45 were the only size I patched.

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Attachment 288808

[QUOTE=centershot;5262799]I have to disagree with that statement. I always want complete penetration, two holes to leak blood. Whatever the quarry, they'll not go far and will leave a generous blood trail to follow. My experience with thirty years of hunting with a 12 ga. slug gun confirms this.[/QUOTE


I wholeheartedly agree! I like two holes to leak from, and the deeper or farther the penetration....the more vital animal components you’re subject to damage! I want an exit, no matter the animal size or the shot angle! memtb

Thanks for all the input guys!

I have worked up one load that shoots very well in both my marlin Guide gun and the T/C Katadin barreled pro hunter.

Both rifles seem to shot the 26.0 grains of Dominion 4198 within 1.2” or better at 100! Super pleased with that! SD for those loads were 3.7 and 7fps! Crazy low! Really surprised me!

Both loads have the boolets seated to “barley” enguage the lands when the action is closed, so no function issues there.

Hunting season for the centerfires opened up this morning! Wohoo! Hopefully I can get my son out with me on the weekend to get ourselves a deer or two, and maybe an elk! Yummm!

I use an NOE mold casting a 350 gr-460-FP over 25-26 grains 2400 /.5 dacron and get 13-1400 FPS leaves 2 holes at most any angle to
(175+yds) PB/GC ed/or powder coated

Never saw the need for hollow points or could tolerate the excessive destruction they cause. Soft lead, a decent meplat and full penetration has dropped everything I've killed with my 45-70's and 45-90 if not in their tracks, with a couple feet. Except for one hog I shot at a dead run at between 25 and 30 yards. His nose hit the ground and his momentum and hind legs carried him forward about 20 feet. He was dead by the time we got to him....probably when his nose hit the ground.

Velocities are fine hard cast or soft both will do the job with a WFN style boolit. Load to accuracy and what your gun likes. I shoot a 460 hammer WFN it will run a deer end to end length wise. At 1200 FPS.

Every thing I have shot with a 45/70 has died. No matter the bullet jacketed or cast. No matter the angle of shot. They all died

All have been shot under 125 yards.

Dthunter

What kind of velocity are you getting with the GG, ?? boolit and 26 grains of 4198?

Never mind, I have reloaded since the 60s and until two weeks ago have never possessed any 4198 so did not even notice loads for it.
According to Lyman manual it looks like 45 fps/grain for 4198 for a good estimation.
Now that I have some I may take a break from 4759, 5744, 3031, 8700.
Had a bunch of 3031, someone gave me the 5744 as well as the 4198 and 8700.

I will put the 4198 in some cases for Wednesdays testing.

8700? I have some military surplus of this, is there a trapdoor load for it? Sorry if I am getting off track.

Older Accurate manuals have load for 8700 in the 45 and 70.
Something on the order of 10,000 psi as I remember
Kind of like Black Powder.
Certainly those kinds of velocities or slower.

I too like the through and through shots on caribou and moose using my vintage 1886 and 1895 .45-90's with cast boolits in the 300gr range. Just one shot through the lungs to get them to bleed out with very little damage to the meat, even out at 250yds is all it takes. They rarely go far if anywhere and I rarely recover boolits unless they happen to hit a major bone. Went caribou hunting with a friend three yrs back and he shot 3 caribou in one spot and blew half the backstrap out of a one at 125yds with a .243. The meat damage on all three was horrendous. What a mess. The meat tasted like liver it was so bloody. There's no need whatsoever to overload the large caliber cast bullets. They punch a nice hole at just about any velocity you can accurately lob them in at.

27 June 1874 second battle of Adobe Walls Texas a group of buffalo hunters were attacked by Kiowas, Cheyenne's, Comanches the defenders held off the attack and a astounding shot with a rifle was made by a man by the name of William Dixon who shot a Kiowa off a horse at the range of 7/8s of a mile.