When did certain Christian sects start to believe and teach rapture doctrine?
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When did certain Christian sects start to believe and teach rapture doctrine?
1 Thessalonians 4:17 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.
I believe the authorship of that letter is attributed to the Apostle Paul.
Correct.
Untranslated "rapture" in the original Greek simply means "caught-up". It's why meat eating birds are called raptors, they catch up their prey.
So is God and Jesus coming down to dwell with man on an earth that's been made new, or coming to take Christians away to somewhere else?
About that word. Have you bothered to look at all the other scriptures where this word is used. It appears that a better translation of this word to English would be "taken by force". Caught up, simply won't work in most of the other context where it's used. Our sovereign King has the power to take the dead from the grave and make them alive again, does he not?
From what I have seen of the tinfoil hats I am related to, they are waiting for the second coming of Trump or Jesus, I'm not sure which and they are confused by the interbabble of wonderful stuff.
Beware of manmade "stumblingblocks".
I ask them. "What are you doing?" No really. The flickering screen is no help.
"What are you doing to prepare for His Coming?"
My Savior said He would be right back. And soon.
God the Father, God the Son of God and God the Holy Spirit are infinient spirits indeed, i.e., they don't have physical bodies and they are not limited to time or space so they're here, there and everywhere all the time. Of the Trinity, only Jesus, the son of man has a visible body. We will surely see Jesus after the rapture but I don't think we will ever "see" the father or the Holy Spirit - our eyes just aren't big enough for that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundarstick
I'm not going to do a concordance search of the rest of scripture to test your premise. But, at least on the surface, it seems that any instant snatching up of rabbits, mice, fish, living and dead people's bodies, etc., by an airborne raptor is of necessity accomplished by an overpowering force. If that's so, you may be drawing out a word distinction that doesn't make any difference. ??? :)Quote:
About that word. Have you bothered to look at all the other scriptures where this word is used. It appears that a better translation of this word to English would be "taken by force".
When you read scripture remember to examine the subject and the object, closely examining what is being said for context as well as the meanings of the words.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
When? Then.
Nobody will have to wonder about this. The whole world is gonna know it's Him.
Good Cheer Nailed it. We will all know when it happens. Be ready!
Thunder, getting back to your original question, Paul had obviously taught the Thessalonians about the Rapture and probably other end times doctrines as well. They had clearly misunderstood parts of it so Paul wrote a letter to correct and reassure them. That means teaching about the coming Rapture goes pretty far back in the Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundarstick
* Just a thought; Paul's written pages were not his own, everything he wrote was inspired by a very reliable source. Therefore, I don't believe your term "certain Christian sects" properly applies to the early Christians who taught and correctly followed scripture as best they could, including the Rapture prophecies. ???
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matthew 24:26).
Not sure about when or how it will happen-as long as it happens!
Yeah, noisy, spectacular, permanent, done and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostHawk
1 John 3:2 New King James Version
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Well, it wasn't taught in any churches until about 1820 or so, and many Christian churches still don't teach a rapture where we'll be taken away from the earth to dwell in heaven (another place).Quote:
Originally Posted by 1hole
Someone mentioned context. There is (context) 4 verses, or so, in front of and after, (Context) how the word is used in that letter, by that author, and (CONTEXT) how that word or paraphrase is used in ALL of scripture. This is why I brought up looking at how a word is used in other scriptures in the original language text (English versions are translated and transliterated verse).
I personally don't see Revelation as a road map of the end of days. Let's not forget that these "books" are all letters written to someone else, that we are listening (looking) in on. I don't see these "end time" theologies as having anything what so ever to do with salvation, and sometimes wonder why we even spend time mulling them over.
Say what! Do you really reject as a fact that Paul himself taught the Thessilions about the rapture somewhere in the early second century AD? Or are you saying the rapture and other end-times doctrines don't matter to you therefore it shouldn't matter to anyone else? Goodness my friend .... that's a BIG step!Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundarstick
Well, except as a pleasant holding place awaiting the millennial Kingdom, I don't accept that either. The present spiritual Paradise is a only place for us to dwell until the time of the new heaven on the rebuilt to original specifications on earth begins.Quote:
...and many Christian churches still don't teach a rapture where we'll be taken away from the earth to dwell in heaven (another place).
The only context at issue here is what the message of the rapture means, not who it was originally written to. Man, if we rejected parts of the Bible as irrelevant today because its "context" wasn't specifically named for Americans in the 21st Century there wouldn't be much left!Quote:
Someone mentioned context. There is (context) 4 verses, or so, in front of and after, (Context) how the word is used in that letter, by that author, and (CONTEXT) how that word or paraphrase is used in ALL of scripture. This is why I brought up looking at how a word is used in other scriptures in the original language text (English versions are translated and transliterated verse).
Okay, that's your point of view. But, what other parts of God's big Book do you suggest we ignore because the information doesn't directly impact salvation? (And I'll mention that the doctrine of salvation is only the starting point, i.e., the baby's milk of the Bible.)Quote:
I personally don't see Revelation as a road map of the end of days. Let's not forget that these "books" are all letters written to someone else, that we are listening (looking) in on.
I don't see these "end time" theologies as having anything what so ever to do with salvation, and sometimes wonder why we even spend time mulling them over.
Salvation is easy to understand; it's so simple that kids can get it. It doesn't really require a lot of study by long-time Christians - people who often haven't gotten passed the spiritual infant stage to know all we need to know about salvation.
Seems pew sitting for years while carefully listening to a steady diet of the simple basic doctrine - the baby's milk of the Christian faith - Sunday after Sunday can't be expected to advance the spiritual growth of the Body of Christ ... and surely you would agree that our churches do seem to have a lot of very old but still baby Christians! (Read 1 Cor 3:1-3 and Heb 5:13-14. Read in context of course ... maybe it wasn't meant for anyone but the Corinthians and Hebrews? ;))
"Say what! Do you really reject as a fact that Paul himself taught the Thessilions about the rapture somewhere in the early second century AD?"
If you are asking about pretrib then yeah, by what scripture says I've found the theory to be untenable along with the notion that Paul was teaching it.
People who want to resolve the matter in their own minds have much to wade through if they consider the published works of proponents and detractors of the theory. For those interested in further research much has been published on investigative works concerning the early 19th Century proponents of the idea, how it was thereafter propagated in Britain and North America, who put up the money along with the political purposes behind it and where in what portions of the world the theory has gained dominance. As with most things political the truth just doesn't cut it so be prepared to find all sides doing a taffy pull on reality.
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. —Philippians 2:12-13
The issue here is the Rapture, not if it will occur pre, mid or post Trib. All we need to know about the timing is to read the scriptures as if they are true as stated. It not a contest of logic or other books or "I believe this and you (wrongly) believe that". Only what God says matters and his Book is where we find that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Cheer
Scripture says the Rapture will happen suddenly and without warning; that would not be the case if it were to occur at mid or post Trib. The Trib itself it would be an obvious warning of what's coming next if the Rapture should happen mid or post Trib. Therefore, pre Trib is the only possible "Surprise!" answer and it matters not what I may think it should be.
Bottom line; the Rapture is not a recent concept, it comes directly from New Testament scripture, the same as salvation by faith and not works, and it did NOT start in 1820.
It's a fact that the Rapture will occur suddenly and without warning, therefore it has to occur pre Trib. (Mat 24:44) ???
And, from 2nd Thessalonians we know it happens after the son of perdition comes out of the closet.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1hole
I've come to think that Christ's return happens after the two dead witnesses stand up in the city. That's going to be a big surprise and so will be
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God as stated in 1st Thessalonians.
You and I have drawn different conclusion. So be it.
"pre, mid or post Trib"
If you don't know the Who, then the what, when & how is not going to help you and if you do know the Who (Jesus) then you can have peace beyond understanding.
I'm trying to understand how you seem to see a direct connection from the SURPRISE! Rapture to be simultaneous with and following the start of the Tribulation period. I see no reason to believe the Rapture won't occur well before the rise of the A.C.Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Cheer
Consider this: Unlike God, Satan alone can't do much with his own power. The A.C is now constrained by the Holy Spirit indwelling the body of the Church; he cannot begin his evil until that restraint (us!) is removed (Raptured). Even then the beast with his master's help will need some significant amount of time to organise and set his plans into motion.
Thus, it seems probable that the appearance and political rise of Antichrist cannot realistically occur until well after the Rapture! So, IMHO, only a pre-Trib Rapture fits all the pieces together seamlessly.
We will know who the A.C. is when he actually comes "out of the closet" with world authority to sign a lying 7 year "peace treaty" with Israel. On that treaty signing day, (probably a few years after the Rapture), the first day of Tribulation begins. Humanly speaking, the political power to make such a treaty like that simply can't happen instantly!
I suspect it will be 2-4 years after the rapture before Satan's sneaky snake "beast" can gain that level of world authority.
1hole,
The world will have embraced a god. My expectation is that when Christ comes back that people all around the world will indeed be surprised. As previously stated, I've come to think that Christ's return happens after the two murdered witnesses stand up in the city, that it's going to be a big surprise as will be what 1st Thessalonians speaks to, that the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.
PS,
Hope you had a fine Resurrection Day.
My personal take is that we will be caught up and meet the Savior as he triumphantly returns to an Earth made new. When, where and what exactly will happen is less important than doing what he commanded.
Yep, of course it is more important. Like learning the parable of the fig tree. He said to learn it.
I'm saying, that for 1700 years of christiandom a pre-tribulation rapture wasn't preached, taught, or understood in scripture!Quote:
Originally Posted by 1hole
Then all the sudden John Nelson Darby developed this pre-tribulation theory and starts pre-tribulation doctrines, where it's included in the Schofield reference Bible. There is where it enters some main stream English speaking sects as scriptural teaching. Then with the Left Behind books and movies have become entrenched in the American Christian psychie. This doesn't make it true and, or scriptural at all.
The Church has been in a tribulation since its establishing, and in no way are believers taken out of these trials. That's just not scriptural at all. The Church in America is being attacked just as the church in Laodiecea, by wealth and ease.
We certainly need a second coming of Trump unless you are happy with the great job confused Joe is doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by .429&H110
Off topic but true.Quote:
Originally Posted by GOPHER SLAYER
America and the world be much better off with Alfred E. Newman in the White House than brother Booboo Biden OR sister Kackling Harris. Or Peelousy. Or ..... etc. of the Democrat's brain dead craphouse crew.
Historically, I'm saying that no one knows much about what was taught in the early churches, one way or the other because there are simply no records. We seem to know that not much of anything was standardized before the church in Rome declared itself boss of the world somewhere about 600-800 and, eventually, started calling itself "the universal true church", i.e., Roman Catholic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundarstick
By that time the ruling church leaders had no interest in teaching doctrines that couldn't be used to extract money from the people. And, to varying degrees, nothing they teach seems to have changed very much.
It's important to remember that the church reformers - Martin Luther and John Calvin - in the early 1500s were deeply immersed in RCC teachings and NONE of it included soteriology OR eschatology. They had a lot of other stuff heaped on their plates at that time (like staying alive) so it's not meaningful that neither of them addressed either topic directly.
Rabid opponents of po' ol' Darby and Schofield have successfully accused both them of things they did not do. To the degree they started anything it was only to retrieve doctrines the RCC had dropped. But Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians and it's plainly written in the Book for all to see so it obviously isn't a diabolical invention crawling in from 1820.Quote:
Then all the sudden John Nelson Darby developed this pre-tribulation theory and starts pre-tribulation doctrines, where it's included in the Schofield reference Bible.
You're faulting Darby and Schofield because of fictional secular books and movies they never saw and not one of whom even suggests they might be scripture? This is the USA so you are free to say that but it's a very long stretch with no end.Quote:
Then with the Left Behind books and movies have become entrenched in the American Christian psychie. This doesn't make it true and, or scriptural at all.
That's true so far as it goes but it's NOT true that the Church/Bride of Christ/true believers will go through seven years of Tribulation before the relief of the Rapture occurs. Otherwise there would be no purpose at all for the Rapture and God doesn't do anything without a good reason!Quote:
The Church has been in a tribulation since its establishing, and in no way are believers taken out of these trials. That's just not scriptural at all. The Church in America is being attacked just as the church in Laodiecea, by wealth and ease.
Bottom line, the Rapture is actually God's promised way of keeping his church out of the misery and devastation of the Tribulation! Sorta like what he once did for Noah and his family when they were caught up for safety during the early days of an unusually heavy rain storm.
The ark of the last days is a study I'd encourage any to make.
"Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians".
No.
there is more written that has been found and rejected or edited out by rulers such as Constantine, one example is the book of Thomas.
just what was written from those who actually knew Jesus and traveled and learned from him?
No? Goodness!Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Cheer
How then do you account for Paul's inclusion of it in his letters?
It isn't.
"No" what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Cheer
I haven't yet figgered out if you think you've figgered out there will be no real Rapture at all or that the Rapture won't be a "Surprise!" or that the Rapture will be mid-Trib or the Rapture will be post the horrors of the great Trib or if you hold some otherwise unknown view; will you help me on that? ???
As previously stated, I think that Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.
Something that I suspect is that His return may be concurrent with winter solstice the same as the last time He physically came to Earth. And that you should pray that your flight be not in winter because that is what could happen if you had accepted the fake Christ, the one who comes first.
The two witnesses will be killed in the streets of Jerusalem and the Antichrist will desecrate the new temple's altar at mid-Trib. You think Jesus and the angelic clouds of heaven will physically return to earth at that time to be with us for the second half of the Tribulation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Cheer
Like I said, Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.
If you think you can tie it down closer than that, speak up and say how.
And as I have effectively said, so do I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Cheer
Tie "it" down and speakup? Well, okay, if your "it" is when does the second coming occur, I can easily pin the Lord's return to earth at the end of the Tribulation, i.e., 7 years after Antichrist signs a peace treaty with Israel and 3 1/2 years after the two witnesses are killed.Quote:
If you think you can tie it down closer than that, speak up ...
No.Quote:
... and say how.
Trying once gain to reason with a closed mind that not only refuses to listen and won't answer questions or make any attempt to reason back would be foolish. I sometimes do foolish things but I'm no fool.
I will tell you that the easiest way to understand scripture is to look at everything that touches a matter and accept all that is written, just the way it's written, and arrange the parts to fit with no loose ends hanging out. And do it without "spiritualizing" what's written to make it fit your preconceived theories.
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Interlude to anyone that cares:
The Rapture will suddenly take up the Church pre-Trib because the Trib will be the wrath of God. Believers, i.e., the Bride of Christ/Jesus' blood-bought Church, will never face the wrath of God. (It's in the Book!)
Instead, we'll all be celebrating with our Lord in heaven as the hells of Tribulation unroll on earth.
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Cheer, study and learn the truth for yourself or not, as you wish, but ... believe me, you do need the study! :)
And what you need to do is to try harmonizing scripture concerning Christ's return as you would when observing differences in the gospels recorded by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
So there, now that we agree to disagree and have told each other what we need to do from the heights of our self-acknowledge superior biblical scholarship perhaps someone will touch upon where the pre-trip rapture theory (PTRT) came from without the usual ad hominem attacks and trying to look down our noses with a key board.
People who study scripture often choose to concentrate on the English KJV because for those of us who speak American it is the one that has huge numbers of study resources is keyed to it. In somewhat a like manner the writings of David MacPherson concerning the PTRT have drawn so much flak, such a vociferous response from the proponents of the PTRT, that much has been written to attack him and what he wrote. That makes MacPherson an excellent place to start; if you want to be shocked then grab a lightening rod. My suggestion would be to get completely stoked on all things anti-PTRT and then immerse yourself in all the scholarship mankind has amassed that is pro-PTRT. Soak it all up. Digest it. Decide.
Some would ask, why is deciding important? My answer would be that if you approach scripture with a preconceived template in your mind (whether valid or not PTRT is such a preconceived template) then you will skew what you are given by scripture to fit your template. So be sure you are not choosing to believe a lie.