Anyone know where I can find .38/44 reloading data? I had a copy of Mr. Venturino's article but the magazine got lost when I moved last year. thanks all ya'll
Dan
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Anyone know where I can find .38/44 reloading data? I had a copy of Mr. Venturino's article but the magazine got lost when I moved last year. thanks all ya'll
Dan
Dan:
I will scan the load charts and PM them to you tomorrow !
Jerry
Some of the finest revolvers made ! :) :)
http://www.fototime.com/EF221C65FA20FEE/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/82E75D2A5113D6D/orig.jpg
.38 Super load data in .38 Special brass will get you close. Then there's always Elmer Keith's load using 2400 powder and 158 or 173 grain SWC's. Make sure the ammo is marked really well so it doesn't end up in, say, a top-break .38 Special. There's a reason the ammo manufacturers don't make .38/44 cartridges anymore.
I dabbled with .38/44 loads using Blue Dot a while back, and they shot just fine in a .357 Magnum SAA but I got case head separations after one shot. (Blue Dot was not a good choice of powders.) Be careful.
GLL;
VERY nice photos of a pair of wonderful revolvers!
Dale
We're talking about the 38-40 (a.k.a. 38 W.C.F.), right???
If so,
http://www.sixgunnercommunity.com/ar...ing-38-40.html
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/0508/index.html
http://www.reloadammo.com/3840.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/38-40win.htm
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/printthread.php?t=47594
Hope this helps.
No, we're talking about short .357 Magnums, or .38 Specials loaded to 36000+ psi, whichever way you want to think of it.Quote:
We're talking about the 38-40 (a.k.a. 38 W.C.F.), right???
RND, I have a Handloader that Brian Pearce had a very comprehensive write up. You mentioned Mike V.'s I think I have that too. I keep a copy of Pearce's in my reloading manuals, lot's of data in there. I'll make copies in the next few days, I can email in to you. I'll PM you when I get it scanned.
The 38-40 is a different round that the 38-44.
The 38 44 was a 38 special round loaded hotter to be shot only in Smith N frames so marked. the 38 44 was loaded much hotter than the standard 38 special of the time and actually predates the 357!
Because 357 Smith's were very hard to find before the war ( WWII) Smith kept the 38 44 in the line for a very long time.
When found these are great buys! As quality was every bit the same as original 357's Smith's.
Lawyer's keep the factories from doing such things these days.
Found it, it's from October 2006.
Dan:
Here are the loading charts:
Jerry
Mike Venturino Handloader #240
http://www.fototime.com/F7803FA02499B35/orig.jpg
Brian Pearse Handloader #243
http://www.fototime.com/C199393C7CA1293/orig.jpg
Brian Pearse Handloader #243
http://www.fototime.com/096F70209630B7E/orig.jpg
Just for reference the first revolver photo is an early Post-War "transitional" 38/44 S&W Outdoorsman and the second photo is a late Pre-War 38/44 Outdoorsman. These heavy N-frame revolvers with 6 1/2" barrels can produce over 1200fps in 38-44 level .38Special loads and not break a sweat ! :) :)
I own several and they are very accurate guns with these loads !
To complete the trio this last photo is an example of a Post-1950 version.
Jerry
http://www.fototime.com/F9000AFE50C6E07/orig.jpg
Dan, I emailed you a bunch of data generated using QuickLOAD software. If you use any of it, start low and work up slowly. I tried 11 grains of Blue Dot, 158 grain Lasercast bullets, and Wolf small rifle primers (not taking my own advice) and they shot great but the heads came off the cases when I tried to extract 'em (obviously they were way too hot.) Alliant has since issued a warning about pressure spikes when using Blue Dot in .357 and .41 Magnum, but I didn't know that at the time.
Gerry, this gun porn has got to stop!!! When you post those pics I get a rapid heart beat, my palms get sweaty, I start to tremble a bit and things start swelling- like my brain- thinking about those beauties!
Jerry as nice as your photos are, I'll just bet that holding those nice Smith's in your hands is even better !
Best,
Ben
BEAUTIFUL rollers, Jerry--just beautiful.
That bit about case head seperations using Blue Dot would be disconcerting as h--l. None of my current 38 Specials are "38/44 capable", nor have any past examples been that strong. Only one is +P-rated, in fact. I imagine the Colt OMT could soak up +P loads without much fuss or bother, but with 357/41/44 Magnum, 44 Special and 45 Colt ready at hand--why risk straining an out-of-print example? I don't go there, accordingly.
Colt rated these pre-war revolvers with 38-44 ammo in their catalogs. Which includes the official police revolvers. In a post war Officers model match, I have fired probably 500 rounds of 38-44 rated ammo with no problems. I am going for 1000 to 1100 FPS with the lyman 358477 (150 SWC) lead cast bullets. After 2 or 3 boxes, I do have some minor leading that cleans out with a brush and hoppes. The post war target wood stocks really help tame the recoil. I was loading this same velocity in my 357 revolvers because of the leading. I really like shooting the OMM as much as the python. Free internet advice is worth what you pay for it but I am breathing new life into these long forgotten target guns that just plain outshoot almost any semi auto.
I've got a spare if anyone needs a shooter. I'll sell or work a swap for a 58.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...r/DSCN4495.jpg
Interesting thread. GLL thank you for the pics of some wonderful historic S&W Handguns and the data.
Not too long ago, I became interested in the replicating the .38-44 cartridge in its factory ballistic form.
In doing some research, I found the following catalog data:
Pre 1953:
158 gr. 1,115 f.p.s.
after 1953 until discontinued:
158 gr. 1,060 f.p.s.
I aquired some the following headstamped cartridges from a cartridge dealer:
1.) REM-UMC .38-44 SPL
2.) REM-UMC .38 SPL H S
3.) R-P .38 SPL H V
I dissected several of each and found that 1.) & 2.) were loaded with an average of 7.5 grs. of a disc type powder; and 3.) 13.0 grs. of a Ball type powder.
I fired some of these vintage 60+ year old cartridges through my .357 Ruger Security Six (6" barrel) and found that they still had plenty of life left:
1.) 1,105 f.p.s. average (3 cartridges)
3.) 1,104 f.p.s. average (3 cartridges)
......only 10 f.p.s. slower than the early cataloged 1,115 f.p.s.
I then tested 7.5 gr charges of several different powders and found that HS-6 came the closest to replicating the burning rate of the powder used in the .38-44 factory cartridge with an average velocity of 1,122 f.p.s.
bullet: 358250 158 gr. (similar to the 358311 except that it has 2 lube grooves)
seating depth: .36" (the factory lead bullet was seated to the same depth)
primer: Rem 1 1/2
case: R-P +P
Accuracy for the 5 rounds @ 50 yards was very good at just over 1 1/2":smile: which were fired using a solid rest.
Now to try replicating the 13.0 gr loading................
Cartridge history is interesting.
w30wcf
I would say the 13.0 gr load is probably 'old' 2400.
redneckdan,
The 13.0 gr charges are definitely a ball type powder and not the disc type that 2400 is. I have some old 2400 and it is also of a disc configuration. Based on the data that GGL kindly posted, 13/2400 would likely give velocities around 1,300 f.p.s.
Additional testing later this week.......
w30wcf
Could it be AA#9? Or maybe H-108?Quote:
13.0 grs. of a Ball type powder
Dan, is that the same as a 357-44 Bain and Davis? If so Hodgdon lists loads on their website http://www.hodgdon.com/#
nope. Think of it as a .38 special +P+
w30wcf, Did you, by chance, mike case body expansion for the factory rounds and your HS6 handloads? It would be interesting to know if pressures were comparable.
Update:
I did try 13 grs. of Lil'Gun (WSPM primers) and velocity averaged in the mid 1200's. Based on that, AA#9 and H-108 would give higher velocities since they are faster burning.
I then tried some discontinued W680. Interestingly 13 grs. sparked by WSPM primers averaged 1,124 f.p.s..... very close to the published 1,115 f.p.s.
The powder used in those R-P .38 SPL H V headstamped cartridges was a non canister powder. Interestingly, W680 pretty much duplicates it.
Treeman,
No further expansion of the cases were found with either of the loads.
w30wcf
w30wcf, Were you miking heads or the expansion ring on the case body? I wouldn't expect head expansion even with heavy loads but case body expansion gives a good idea of relative pressures.
Treeman,
The expansion ring just forward of the web.
w30wcf
Just an update for the folks out there. I have been using 10.0gr of 2400 under a 150gr rcbs KT bullet in my model 15 4", I have been getting about 1025fps. Accuracy is excellent. Understand that this is not a plinking or practice load but rather a carry load for the times I don't feel like carting around the 629 or model 19.
is the .38-44 keith loads you list, tried and true? ive worked up for my dan wesson mod 15 8" barrel some hot 38 loads for my gun and they are accurate. im looking for a lbt wld 180 gr mold,,,160 would work. all my loads are worked up 1/10 th grain at a time and are pressure tested. i need h-110 loads to complete my list. if you reply i would appreciate it
The load I listed was test d over a chronograph out of my 4" model 15 Average centered right around 1025 fps.
A "magnum" load using .38 Special brass that I've been shooting a lot of lately is a DEWC over 7.0 grains of WSF powder loaded to 1.36" OAL. (This is not a max load but it's close.) It won't chamber in a .38 Special because the meplat is too wide. Works great in a .357 Magnum.
Obviously this won't be much help if you're loading for a S&W Outdoorsman, but if you want a plinking load for a .357 and you don't have much .357 brass, this is a good load. And I can fit 11 in the magazine of my Marlin carbine and they cycle just fine. I haven't tried shooting them in the carbine yet.
You guys are good on the 38-44 not many remember it at all. Recently I loaded a batch (400) 38 specials for my son in law and found 3 cases made by peters that had large pistol primer pockets cases were nickel plated could these have been 38-44 cases? They were marked 38 special.
I tried 12, 12.5, and 13 grains of current Alliant 2400 with Federal SP Primers and Lyman 358429 boolits that were right at 173 grains with WW lead. Test gun was my S&W 681-3 L-frame. Results were as follows:
12.0 grains, 1086 fps Average
12.5 grains, 1143 fps Average
13.0 grains, 1201 fps Average
The 13 grain load had slightly sticky extraction, so I'm planning on sticking with the 12.5 grain load for my future .38-44 loading.
I only tried 12.5 grains of 2400 with the Lyman 358429 Hollowpoint (which runs right at 165 grains with my WW lead), and it averaged 1176 fps out of the same gun.
if you had known elmer keith before he died you would have his data and you could copy his notes as i did. elmer helped me a lot years and years ago. he also had loads for 200 and 210 loads for the 38-44 and i got them and they work real well with lbt wln bullets. bullet weight is critical but so is the bearing surface, both affect pressure. i have a pressure gun and barrels for every caliber in pistol and rifle i got and i have a lot. these young writers dont know nothing compared to keith and p.o.ackly. dont believe me,,,thats ok,,,only the younger ones wont listen. im old and ive been taught by the masters.
oldmantoo49:
If you are willing to share Mr. Keith's notes on the .38-44 I would love to hear from you !
Please drop me an email !
Best Regards,
Jerry
gllewis@pasadena.edu
Higher velocity doesn't mean accuracy. So what kind of 50-yd groups are you shooting with any of those loads?
Oldmantoo49:
Me too!!!!!!!
I need information to reload 158gr swc to 38/44 levels for home defense. As we are not allowed to have 357 magnum revolvers (I live Down South of Rio Grande) I intend to get enough power out of my Heavy Duty. Of course, the 38/44 loads are not the type I would use in my S&W M-67, or my Colt DiamondBack or Official Police, Only to be used in my 1946 4" Heavy Duty.......................so
"If you are willing to share Mr. Keith's notes on the .38-44 I would love to hear from you !
Please drop me an email ! tadeus99@yahoo.com
Best Regards,"
tadeus
You could do a lot worse than 12.0 to 12.5 grains of Alliant 2400, or 11.0 grains of AA#7 or N105, or 8.5 grains of Power Pistol. (these are all max loads. Probably over max, but I'd shoot them in a .357 revolver)
I saw one good group on target talk. It was a Smith 14-6 shooting HBWC's (?), 2.7 grns Bullseye, a ragged hole at 50 yds. Can this be expected more often than not?