160gr. cast boolit, what is the "do not exceed" rule of thumb? Been using 16gr. and getting decent results, but max load data is pretty much nonexistant.
So what's you guys' opinions? How far have you gone up in the range?
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160gr. cast boolit, what is the "do not exceed" rule of thumb? Been using 16gr. and getting decent results, but max load data is pretty much nonexistant.
So what's you guys' opinions? How far have you gone up in the range?
Atv16 grains of Red Dot in 7.62x54R you are already at mX load. Quit where you are!
C.E. Harris' load of 13grs. Red Dot in a .30cal. cartridge (metrics included) with CBs is where you want to be. No need to exceed it!
Maybe even back off! Pressures climb rapidly with fast burning powders. I use around 8 grains of RD in my milsurps.
Don't you guys get ridiculous bullet drop with lower charges? I'm still learning about cast rifle boolits, but 2-3 feet of drop by 100 yards is a bit too much, maybe I just need to forget about red dot loads and just load gc'd boolits at higher velocities. Thanks for the input, guys, I'll probably lower the charge back to 14 grains for my kids to shoot and just forget about light plinking loads for myself, I'm too hung up on long range shooting for this low velocity stuff.
low velocity stuff...amazing how the buffalo and Indians were dealt with low-velocity bullets. There is even recorded evidence of a indian fight where the buffalo hunters took down the Indians from nearly a mile away with a 45 caliber lead pumpkin mosing along...
just put your sight setting at 600 meters or arshins (depending on the age of your rifle) and you can work at 200 yards with a 13gr Red dot load quite well.
Why do people want to take super quick powders like Red Dot and max them out with red line loads ? ? ?
So many more useful powders on the shelf if you are looking for increased velocity. You gain a side benefit , much lower pressures with 2400, SR - 4759, IMR - 4895, etc.
LOL! I know the story of Billy Dixon's Adobe Wells shot, but I'm still new to cast boolits! I'm used to loading 44.6 grains of Varget behind Sierra Match Kings and achieving 8" and smaller groups at 600 yards, so this whole cast boolit mindset is slightly confusing at times! I heard about the Red Dot loads here, and worked up from 12 grains in half grain increments, and found my best accuracy from the 16 grain load, but it has too much drop to use in my rifle (accurized,shortened, sporterized 91/30) without having to sight my rifle in just to shoot the thing! Keep in mind, though, I'm still a noob at cast boolit loading, so I'm still learning what works, what doesn't, and what's just a dumb idea. I do have a nice little deer load I'm working on for my brush gun using a cast boolit, and am currently experimenting with paper patching gas checked boolits.
Plus, the more stupid questions I ask, the less stupid things I do!
Sweeper,
Welcome to the forums!
I'm going to respond very bluntly to your OP and subsequent posts:
STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING BEFORE YOU GET SOMEONE KILLED!!
Get a manual dealing directly with cast boolit loads and data. From reading your posts, it's obvious you aren't aware of certain "realities" and how they apply to the realm of cast boolit shooting. Go back to square one, read and learn all you can about this type of ammunition and what it takes to safely make it work. Then pick one cartridge and firearm to perfect your abilities with. You need to learn that cast boolits perform differently than full metal jackets. Failure to do so can be catastrophic.
Take a look at this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...new-folks-that
Then read this one:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-you-recommend
Best wishes as you move forward.
YES YES YES.
for what you're trying to do, RED DOT is the WRONG powder.
If you were to use a lighter boolit (like 90gr.) and load at 1600fps or less for plinking purposes, then Red Dot should be fine. But you'll still get a good drop at 100 yds. I shot alot of 22LR at various distances in a rifle league, and typically a standard velocity 22LR will drop about 8" at 100 yds. you just have to deal with it.
If you want to stick with the 160gr boolit, my first choice would be 2400...BUT DON"T LOAD TO J-WORD SPEEDS. 16 gr. of 2400 with a standard weight cast boolit is the goto load for 30 cal milsurps...it'll be under 1800fps.
Good Luck,
Jon
What exactly do you mean by "2-3 feet of drop"? If you sight in at 100 yards with 13 grains Red Dot, your midpoint max height will be no more than 5".
For 16 grain charges, you need Alliant 2400! What are you trying to accomplish? Red Dot will approximate 22lr in this cartridge, no better velocity, much better BC and terminal energy and penetration.
Maybe you missed my stupid question comment?
I'm asking questions so I DON'T get someone killed, I haven't been able to find any load data for a Red Dot load other than the Ed Harris rule of thumb. Cast boolits are new to me, so I'm learning what I can as I go, and telling me to "Stop what I'm doing before I get someone killed" doesn't help the learning process.
But thanks to everyone giving me useful advice, Red Dot loads are obviously not what I'm looking for in a CB load, so I'll stick with loading them at under 14gr of powder, as what I'm hearing here is that even that 14 grains is a "hot" Red Dot load. Time for me to look at other options for a PB CB load for plinking purposes.
I was trying to accomplish the building of a load that I could use for plinking with my rifle, but, my rifle has been sighted in for long distance shots, 2" over bullseye at 100 yards, gets me about 1" under bullseye at 300 yards, so when I shoot the red dot loads, I can't successfully hit anything without sighting my rifle in for this particular load. I was working on a load that I could successfully fire in my rifle for practice shooting, and Red Dot loads obviously are not going to work for me. Another reason I wanted to work up this load is that I stock plenty of red dot for both my handgun and shotgun loads, so the option of using it in a plinking rifle round appealed to me.
The max load of Red Dot is obviously not going to work for what I need it to, so I'm going back to Varget powder and resign myself to gc'ing all my boolits.
hi sweeper , greetings from another new guy .
first thing is you are new and admit to not having much knowladge with cast .. nothing wrong with that . but you should watch how you word your responses if you care to make any friends and get the help you ask for ... the last post you made is not going to win you many friends .
but moving on ... if i read your last post correctly ( i reread it twice to be sure ) my understanding here is .. you want a plinking cast load that is going to shoot to the same point of aim as your jacketed loads at 100-300 yards.
if that is the case .. i agree with wilco. STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING .
if you do realy expect to be able to shoot a differant load without changing your zero be it cast or jacketed you may be to confused to help
Sweeper, not to belabor a point or be overly critical, but there is no point in PP a GC boolit. You can PP a GC "style" boolit and eliminate the expense of a GC, or put a check on it, or PP a plain based style, just a waste of time and money to combine the two. GW
Hey Sweeper, Welcome.
I am no expert, and have only been loading cast bullets for about 6 years, but have been reloading jacketed bullets in surplus rifles for almost 30 years.
The problem is velocity and bullet lube.
You can certainly load a 160 grain cast bullet to the same speed you can load a jacketed bullet. But you will not intentionally hit anything if you just use Lee Liquid Alox or other "standard type" lubes.
Very knowledgable people have spent years working on a lube that will hold up to 2500-2700 fps in a .30 cal. It can be done, but it is not beginners work. Paper patching will accomplish the same, but is its own specialty.
Basically, to approximate surplus ammo trajectory, even at relatively short range like 100-200 yards, you will have to approximate the velocity. Or you can try a radically different bullet weight, like 90 gr, or 215 grains, and hope to "luck out" at a specific range.
I take it your Mosin Nagant no longer has the issue military sight on it, and what you have on it now is not easy or quick to adjust.
Good luck, and be safe.
I'm not really confused, just worked a load up to the point where I decided to put the question in my OP to those more knowledgeable than myself. The 16 grain charges have shown no visible indications of overpressure, no funky neck blemishes, splits or anything that would indicate that the load was too hot, BUT, the Ed Harris recommendation was 75% of the load charge, and the manuals I currently have don't even have a Red Dot recommendation, so I decided to ask the question before going any farther. That in itself should be an indication of how careful I am with building my own ammo. I got the answer I was searching for- that the load I had worked up was too hot to be using, and I need to back it off a bit. It is what it is, and the Red Dot load, while I can plink with it in my carbine, is useless in my rifle, so I need to try something different.
Thanks! I wasn't aware that the paper patching nullified the usefullness of a GC'd boolit (I've been doing both with decent results) but that'll save me a wee bit of both time and money, since I guess doing both is redundant.
I was hoping to be able to use the same load in both my rifle and my carbine, but the Red Dot load has too much of a rainbow trajectory to be of any use in my rifle. If I could at least adjust for the amount of bullet drop of the Red Dot charge through my scope it would be an option, but at 100 yards, as my rifle is sighted, I can only see the top edge of my target at the bottom of the crosshairs, and that's just not going to work for me.
But yes, my Nugget no longer has the front sight post, or the last 8" of barrel (Or that 6" of counterbore that murdered accuracy) and is equipped with a PE scope mount and a 4-12 power scope. It's more deer rifle than surplus rifle now, and with the cartridges I've loaded in the past, it has achieved sub moa accuracy.
I ask my questions here because this forum has more knowledge of cast boolit loads than even the manuals (most of which I'm still slowly collecting) and I would much rather ask a stupid question than do something stupid, hence why I stopped at the charge I did to ask questions, since none of the data I have in paperback form have any data on this particular powder for a rifle load.
So, I'm going to just replenish my supply of Varget and build gc'd or pp'd ammo for this rifle, as the CB load I have been working on shoots about 3" below bullseye in my rifle, which is acceptable IMO for a cast load versus a nearly max loaded match bullet.
Thanks everyone for the help, now I'm off to load up another batch of 9mm boolits, 'cuz this guy's out of Varget and now knows that that durned pistol powder just won't work for me.
Sweeper,
Have fun going in circles. Not trying to pick a fight, but you clearly didn't read my post fully. You don't understand what you're doing in regards to cast boolits and ultimately, you're going to get someone killed. You've failed to grasp the basic fundamentals between shooting full metal jackets and cast boolits. They are two different worlds and cannot be fully intertwined. My best advice is to stop what you are doing, get a manual related to cast boolits specifically, pick a single cartridge/firearm, and go from there.
False. Bullet lubes are a part of the equation, but there's many more factors to be considered. Such as alloy BHN, pressures and so forth. Even with paper patching, you cannot achieve full metal jacket velocities or performance. Two different worlds, which is why having a full understanding of cast boolits and their inherent uses is so critical, before there is even one grain of powder spilled in the endeavor of cast boolit shooting.
Having a manual for cast boolits is key to success. This website is only a resource to expand upon the basic knowledge.
Wilco, man, I'm here on this forum specifically because I don't fully understand cast boolit reloading, otherwise I wouldn't post the questions that I do. I just can't understand the logic in being told to stop learning how a cast boolit acts with specific velocities and different burn rate powders, paper patched, gas checked or plain based, water hardened vs. air cooled, etc, until I learn how it all works. I don't understand how to learn without applying the knowledge I have, in other words hands on experience. Yes, I load jacketed bullets, in all my firearms, yes, I achieve great results while working well within the load parameters, I even get excellent results loading cb's for my handguns, and getting better results with every batch of my gc'd and pp'd cast boolits. This Red Dot load was the first time I attempted using a fast burning powder to work up a plinking round for a rifle. I used standard basic knowledge of working up a load, and still, even at the 16 grains of powder I loaded, the cases show absolutely no signs of overpressure, no signs of anything at all not being completely normal within the chamber of the rifle, but, it was getting progressively hotter with each batch, and although the signs were not there, I became hesitant to load any hotter, hence, I asked for advice.
I have a few older manuals, and a couple have load data for regular rifle powders, but the only place I've found the Red Dot info was here, by the way, thanks for the link, I'll be ordering or downloading a few of those manuals depending on their availability, the Ed Harris manual I haven't seen yet, but what I've heard it's probably the manual that I need more than the others.
Sweeper, thanks for hanging in there and not getting upset. Wilco and the assembled are looking out for you.
Just a tiny glimpse into what the guy's are trying to explain to you:
Just the difference in the way a jacketed bullet and a lead bullet interact with the case and the differing amounts of pressure it takes to begin to move the projectile out of the case can present a catastrophic situation with the lead bullet, when treated like a jacketed bullet.
Stay with it, read everything you can get your hands on about lead boolit loading, and check your thoughts against multiple sources.
Hey Sweeper,
You're missing my basic points. You cannot go forward and build upon your experience without first having the basic working principles of using lead projectiles as boolits. You need to know that most of what you've done with full metal jackets doesn't apply with cast boolits. You need to understand that full metal jacket bullets are not readily interchangeable with cast boolits in the same firearm, without doing the proper prepwork. It does no good to have a rifle sighted in for fmj and then try to develop a load for cast, without being willing to readjust points of impact. It's dangerous, a waste of time, materials and money, to just take a "Load" from the internet and work your way up to a point, and then ask questions on max charges. If you fully understood the basics of cast boolits, you would know that you'll never achieve your ultimate goal, based on the realities of limitations inherent with the lead itself.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but you really need to learn about lead alloys, BHN, velocities and pressures, powder selections, powder reduction formulas, lubes and a host of other factors that are considered "Basics" and covered thoroughly in a manual geared towards cast boolit shooting. Stopping where you are, going back to square one with a designated cartridge/firearm, fully grasping the basics of the task at hand with a correct manual is both prudent and wise.
Richard Lee's Second manual is a good one for you to read along with the Lyman #3 and #4.
What the guys are trying to say (I think) is there needs to be an understanding of what happens to a cast boolit when fired versus the jacketed. I am using the Hi-Tek coating on my gas checked rifle boolits and trying to come close to jacketed velocities. A very definite point in the shooting is apparrent when the pressue becomes too great for the relatively soft boolit to withstand. IIRC 22 BHN linotype metal is good for about 27,000 psi, and heat treated 35 BHN alloy is good for about 35,000 psi. (My psi might be off a little.) This shows on the target as an immediate enlargement of the group size. So I am working with different alloys and powders trying to find the elusive combo that will give me good accuracy at over 2,550 fps with a 200 gr boolit in a 30-06.
The "light" shotgun powder loads like the Red Dot you are using is low velocity, but not low pressure really. You are probably in the 35,000 to 40,000 psi or more with your load. They feel light because there is not the volume of gas created by a jacketed rifle load and the boolit is much slower.
You may be able to accomplish what you want but it will probably take a lighter boolit and a much slower powder like your Varget (when you find some!). Have you considered a lighter jacketed bullet?
I developed a "light" load for a friend of mine that has only one arm for his 30-06 H&R. It was a 125gr jacketed bullet with 2400 as the powder. It shoot about 1 1/2" below the Remington 150gr factory load he used for big game hunting. Gave him a fun load for coyotes and such.
Don't forget that boolits can break apart mid air from rotational inertia if pushed beyond your chosen alloys ability to hold together. If you try to push a boolit to jacketed speed in some rifles you get a shotgun affect at or before 100 yards. This is why some of the best calibers chosen have a max jacketed bullet speed of around 2000 FPS. The 300 blackout, and 30-30 are good examples of rifle calibers that shoot at speeds that cast do well with. You can get a boolit to do 3000 FPS, but it takes a lot of know how, and understanding of what is going on to achieve it safely.
The max Red Dot load aside, I don't get the difficulty of 'sighting' for different loads. I just jot down in my book how many clicks up or down I have to go on a scope or where to set the irons. Pick heavier bullets 200gr+ and slow the jacketed loads some, and the POI difference will not be as great while keeping the cast bullet at easily attainable speeds.
Thanks for all the responses and info!
Lots of good info, and even more for me to research and work on. While I am abandoning the quest for a Red Dot load, I better understand both what I need in a cb round and what I need to do to achieve the desired results.
I'm considering casting for a Moisin-Nagant. I've had good results in a M95 Steyr carbinr in 8x56R using cast bullets and IMR4198. I'm using a 220gr Lee .338 bullet at around 1800fps. The powder is much too fast for normal jacketed bullet loads, but seems to work extremely well with cast. For the Moisin I'm considering a heavy bullet with IMR4198. As every one here recommends, I plan to review a reloading manual on cast bullets BEFORE I get started.
The 4198 will work just about the same in the 7.62X54R as the 8X56R. The 4198 will also work for jacketed loads but it will be at similar velocities to what you get with the cast loads. If you tried to match full jacketed velocities with the cast boolits 4198 would also be way too fast.
The heaviest boolit normally available that would work in the MN is about the same weight you are using in the Steyr.
A simple observation on this subject.
There's asking the question so you would know the "not to exceed" level, and there's asking the question because you want to try it.
Now, wanting to know what to not exceed is a good thing.
But, it's pretty much moot, as you should transition to a different powder long before you even get close.
In other words, other powders work better.
Seems faster powders (like Red Dot and Bullseye) work well for real light loads. Loads on the upper end of the velocity range should tend to be better served with quite slower powders, even slower than you would use for jacketed bullet loads.
Why?
It's about keeping pressures low.
Load for an M1 Garand for a while, and you have to learn about "port pressure". You actually can load cast bullet loads at slower velocities than jacketed, and the action will work. Of course, you're using powders that would totally wreck the operating rod if it was loaded to jacketed bullet velocities, assuming you could get enough powder in the case to do so.
A good book to read for advanced loaders is "Propellant Profiles". I'll wager Amazon has it. There's several different versions, the info gets kept from the older ones to the newer ones. It'll teach you about powder. If you're a fairly new loader, it's still good, but before you get it, I would look for "Pet Loads", which is available on Amazon. Warning, it isn't real cheap.
There are well known fast powder loads for rifles that work well for cast in the large milsurp
cases of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. They are 10 gr Unique, 16 gr of 2400 and
13 gr of Red Dot. Of these, Red Dot is BY FAR the fastest burning powder, so it will increase
pressures the fastest as you add powder. Unique is in the middle and 2400 is the slowest.
Unique is fairly forgiving up to 12-14 gr or maybe more in some cartridges, 2400 can be pushed up
a good bit, too, but all of these need good data like in the Lyman manual. Pushing RD much is not
going to be good, I would think and I actually do not use RD in the big milsurps, I stick
with Unique and 2400, mid and slower speeds. The above loads are known good and known
safe in a wide range of large capacity milsurps. Use them as is and you are safe. As you
push higher, take care and try to find data to guide you.
Best of luck, be careful and get some old Lyman manuals that give data for these powders.
Modern manuals pretty much ignore cast in rifles and have a primary interest in
producing max velocities with jbullets, so you are not going to find RD, Unique or 2400
in use for rifles in most of them.
Bill
Man, I'm sure glad I kept learning instead of stopping when Wilco said I'd get someone killed. Over 20,000 rounds of cast lead loads have gone down my barrels since I started this thread, and the only things I've killed have been coyotes and targets.......
Just proves that some old know it alls are just butthurt that nobody listens to their rantings, glad I kept going instead of taking the advice of a grumpy old know it all!
(facepalm)
If you'll go back and reread this thread you'll see a whole bunch of folks completely agreed with Wilco. Folks were trying to help you. Noobs showing up with zero appreciation for loading granulated brass bombs is fairly common on this site and a pretty fair percentage of the old fuddy-duddies here would rather caution someone frankly instead of hearing later about the injury and property damage.
I am to assume that the 20,000+ rounds were 16gr. Red Dot or higher, as that is the way you have worded it?
I guess folks should have told you to keep pouring the powder to it like some forums,,,,,.
Three times I almost jumped into this mess, 3 times I walked away.
I guess I have 2 things to say.
A I started out with 13 grains in my 7.62x54r, and its ok, but it shoots better at 10 grains.
B Unreasonable expectations. They'll kill ya.
If you are going to shoot cast over Red Dot, shoot cast over Red Dot. Sight the weapon for the load and leave well enough alone. And who said you could shoot light Red Dot loads to 300 yards?
You want to shoot 300 yards buy match ammo and quite screwing around with plinking loads.
Red Dot is great for what it does. What it does NOT do is give you max speed. 2500 fps for shooting 300 yards. You want to do that you need to look at a full case of slow rifle powder.
Fast powder like Red Dot to go slow.
Slow powder to go fast.
Decide what you want. And accept that unreasonable expectations are dangerous.
Don't think that this attitude is restricted to Cast Boolits.
I frequent another forum geared towards California residents. Maybe it is the special type of snowflake that we are raising out here now but the attitudes there are shocking.
I agree about Red Dot. I don't own a Mosin but I helped my son work on his. When he shoots 75-100 yards he grabs a Red Dot or Unique load. When he goes for 200 yards he gets the 2400 loads.
Now we are going to try to work up some 300 yards loads with Rx7 and others.
You guys are great to try to help new reloaders, keep up the good work.
Steve in N CA
You dredged up a 3.5 year old thread to brag about still being alive after not accepting some advice? How about adding something useful to the forum like what it is you kept learning over those 20k rounds and years of range time.
Nah, was actually trying to find Ed Harris's write up for another fellow reloader and this thread was the first to pop up on my search. I re-read it, and it elicited the same thoughts it did 3 years ago, when I quit frequenting this forum.
I learned a lot about lead boolits since then, and, other than .223, every round I reload gets fitted to it's very own cast lead pill.
We should all think about how we respond to noobs, as our responses to their questions can affect how they view our hobby, and if the continue learning the do's and don'ts of cast boolits and reloading.
I'm shooting the 8x56R hungrian steyr, its the same case a 7.62x54R, mine is just necked up a little. I'm shooting a 227 gr. bullet somewhere between 1050- to 1150. that 9gr's of to 12 grains of Red dot, or 9 to 12 gr's of Trail boss. yes, this is with a Crony! this is still very much a work in progress, and trying to wait till the wind gets below 15 MPH("O") you can make 8x56R brass out of 7.62x54R, but the neck will be a little shorter. but it works, anneal the brass before you shoot it.
You still don’t get it?
After a five year “sebatical” of sorts while you go about firing “twenty thousand boolits” and you open back up by lecturing experienced members on how their obligation to behave towards newbies?
In your old postings you were lamenting on not being able to find data on using red dot in your Mosin. What bothers advanced members is people who charge in that have not bothered to use the search function.
If you had done so ...(used the search)....you could have spent the past five years reading on the subject.
The other place would be reading manuals .... members with experience grow weary answering questions that are in print in some awfully obvious places ..... the LYMAN CAST BOOLIT MANUAL .... for instance.
After while a pattern becomes evident amongst newbies dividing them into two camps .... one where new members are absorbing as much info from print, physical and electronic as they can and the other group, one which wants to bypass the heavy lifting and cut to the chase, save time by just “asking” rather than reading.
I personally know a fellow who takes it a step further. Whether it is about trucks, horsemanship or handloading and shooting, he often calls for information but also wants to argue if I did not give the answer he wanted. This has been going on for years and I flat out put him in his place now days because I simply run out of patience and time.
You see a newbie that wants to find short cuts to learning is valuing their time more than they value a fellow member’s time and that is selfish.
The reality is that the very posts of the past are a great gift to any newbie, far better than the advanced members had it in pioneering the advancement of the craft of casting and shooting boolits. There were nothing to search in the begining, much less all those stickies and member written articles.
With all those resources at hand we find newbies that still expect it handed to them ........
Three44s