Vista Ammunition Producers

Anoka, Minnesota-based Vista Outdoors produces ammunition under the CCI, Federal, Speer, and Remington brands.

I have a question for those who "know".
I specialize in 22 rim fire ammo. Having measured and inspected various different brands, I have found that there are production differences in these various brands.
Especially between Remington and CCI.
The question is this:
Will Vista, now that they own Remington, bring Remington rim fire ammunition "up to" the standards of CCI and Federal?
(moderator, if this is posted in the wrong forum please move it for me, thanks)

Forgive me for saying so, but isn't that a question you'd have to direct to Vista? Personally, I've never had much trouble with Remington .22 ammo. Maybe a once-in-a- year dud. Also, I've heard plenty of complaints here on this Forum about "cheap Federal ammo." CCI does seem to be the recipient of fewer complaints. At the moment one is lucky to get any of it!

DG

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Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager

Forgive me for saying so, but isn't that a question you'd have to direct to Vista? Personally, I've never had much trouble with Remington .22 ammo. Maybe a once-in-a- year dud. Also, I've heard plenty of complaints here on this Forum about "cheap Federal ammo." CCI does seem to be the recipient of fewer complaints. At the moment one is lucky to get any of it!

DG

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I asked here because the engineers for at least some of those plants frequent this forum.

Traffer, what is your definition of “up to standards”
I didn’t know ther was different standards with US made rimfires. The different quality standard for rimfires to US brands are the likes of Eley, Lapua and Wolf
PS... my black powder reload 22’s will tear the centers out of targets at 50 yards with vintage Ballard & Stevens single shots with vernier iron sights [smilie=s:

Specifically the pull weight of the crimp. Remington rim fire has measurably less consistent crimp.

Vista is a George Soros company

I wouldn't expect to see a change, guessing they will just keep the lines going....when the can get the materials to run it.

IMHO, when .22 LR is selling for over $50/brick, if you can get it, there is no incentive to improve its quality. I doubt even "normal" preventive maintenance is being done on the machines producing the stuff. They are (or should be) running full out to meet demand.

Strange as it may sound...most companies are not stupid. There is no incentive to improve quality unless they can increase market share. So until consumers have a choice, even Remington Thunderduds will fly off the shelves for at least the next 6 months.

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Originally Posted by Slim Chance Pistolero

Vista is a George Soros company

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Links? Proof??

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Originally Posted by Slim Chance Pistolero

Vista is a George Soros company

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In what way is George Soros involved with the company

https://vistagroup.co.nz/board-and-management.html

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/VSTO/holders

https://fintel.io/so/us/vsto/soros-fund-management-llc

It is not good to post lies to this forum.

It is not hard to check what you post to make sure you are not spreading lies. You owe it to us.

Tim

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Originally Posted by dverna

IMHO, when .22 LR is selling for over $50/brick, if you can get it, there is no incentive to improve its quality. I doubt even "normal" preventive maintenance is being done on the machines producing the stuff. They are (or should be) running full out to meet demand.

Strange as it may sound...most companies are not stupid. There is no incentive to improve quality unless they can increase market share. So until consumers have a choice, even Remington Thunderduds will fly off the shelves for at least the next 6 months.

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It would seem to be short sighted to not do proper PM's on equipment. PM's prevent damage to the equipment that could lead to long production delays and reduced output.

I would think that companies like Ely who have a reputation to protect and who can charge a premium because of the reputation would not relax any quality standards as that would damage the brand and reduce profits.

I am not buying any .22 lr right now for a lot of reasons. I am sure you are right that some produces are cutting corners.

Tim

All that I know about 22 rim fires for all the manufactures is that small caliber brass round stock is a severe shortage from the manufactures and case makers are backlogged
Source: Jeff Roberson, President Roberson Cartridge Company
I'm in a long wait to have fifty 25-10 cases made for Remington 44 1/2 rifle

If they make .22 at the Arkansas plant they said they rebuilt/retooled everything before reopening.

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Originally Posted by Slim Chance Pistolero

Vista is a George Soros company

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A couple of others have asked for proof, so I will also, even though this is not the first time I have heard that same info from different sources. It is next to impossible sometimes to find the REAL owner of these large corporations.

Vista Outdoor is a publicly traded company.
Anyone, including Soros can buy shares in the company. That does not make it a Soros company.

Information on their Board of Directors:

https://vistaoutdoor.com/investors-i...-of-directors/

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Originally Posted by dtknowles

It would seem to be short sighted to not do proper PM's on equipment. PM's prevent damage to the equipment that could lead to long production delays and reduced output.

I would think that companies like Ely who have a reputation to protect and who can charge a premium because of the reputation would not relax any quality standards as that would damage the brand and reduce profits.

I am not buying any .22 lr right now for a lot of reasons. I am sure you are right that some produces are cutting corners.

Tim

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The OP specifically questioned the quality of Remington....not Eley. I would not expect Eley to make stupid manufacturing decisions....Remington bargain 22’s...well....they did not call them Thunderduds without reason.

As to PM....I worked in manufacturing all my life. At one time ran the maintenance department for a $65 factory...PM’s would get delayed many times when market demands pushed for production. Just my experience from over 40 years in four companies.

An engineer insisting on doing PM will need to convince management there will be a catastrophic failure that will result in extended downtime, or safety issues to justify shutting down production when marketing and sales are demanding product.

follow this link and the many more that can be found on Google on this subject ...
https://www.ibtimes.com/political-ca...le-backing-gun

Wow he owns $11m, if that, in a company w/ a market cap of $2b.
"A spokesperson for Soros Fund Management declined to comment on the firm’s holdings, citing company policy. But Soros’ fund has sold most of its Vista holdings and no longer owns Olin stock, according to a source familiar with the companies."

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Originally Posted by Slim Chance Pistolero

follow this link and the many more that can be found on Google on this subject ...
https://www.ibtimes.com/political-ca...le-backing-gun

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That article is from 2016, his funds sold their holding since then.

Tim

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Originally Posted by dverna

The OP specifically questioned the quality of Remington....not Eley. I would not expect Eley to make stupid manufacturing decisions....Remington bargain 22’s...well....they did not call them Thunderduds without reason.

As to PM....I worked in manufacturing all my life. At one time ran the maintenance department for a $65 factory...PM’s would get delayed many times when market demands pushed for production. Just my experience from over 40 years in four companies.

An engineer insisting on doing PM will need to convince management there will be a catastrophic failure that will result in extended downtime, or safety issues to justify shutting down production when marketing and sales are demanding product.

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I guess I work in a different environment. Not doing PM's in my world will get the equipment shutdown by quality. If Production Operations wants to delay PM's they have to show that it will not cause quality or safety problems and get Quality Management to extend the intervals. In our factory you have to verify current PM's and Calibrations before you can run a job. If the system shows the PM's or Calibrations are out of date the job order can't even be issue to the floor to be worked. I guess it depends on how much Quality and Safety matters to the business. Any Quality Manager who will cave to production pressure does not deserve the title.

Tim

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Originally Posted by Slim Chance Pistolero

follow this link and the many more that can be found on Google on this subject ...
https://www.ibtimes.com/political-ca...le-backing-gun

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I wonder how much money he made? I would think firearm related stocks would go up when the anti-gun crowd causes panic buying. So why wouldn't the anti-gun rich invest millions in those companies. At the end of the day it is still all about money.

Vista's stock is up 230% over the past year according to CNBC. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2021/05/0...gs-report.html

Something many people don't know.

Those "budget" 22 LR lines are primed by people in training. It takes a couple of years to become proficient in the process. That's why you can get ammo that doesn't go bang, it either missed being primed or was improperly primed.

Watch a video on the process. The person doing the priming is also the inspector. Ya try and keep as many people away from the priming area as possible. That stuff is sensitive.

Primer compound for 22 is liquid, done by machine. FTF caused by shipping. Only QC on rimfire priming is done by test firing. Probably not very often.

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Originally Posted by popper

Primer compound for 22 is liquid, done by machine. FTF caused by shipping. Only QC on rimfire priming is done by test firing. Probably not very often.

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I'll disagree. The liquid is the Ely method. Not all companies use it. There are videos out there showing how CCI and Federal make rimfire ammo.

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Originally Posted by Burnt Fingers

I'll disagree. The liquid is the Ely method. Not all companies use it. There are videos out there showing how CCI and Federal make rimfire ammo.

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CCI uses a method that requires drying. Not sure if it is the liquid process you are referring to...
https://youtu.be/_rCZHG_eEak?t=278

Can be liquid or slurry primer mix. Has to be spun to get it out to the rim for rimfire. CCI makes a pellet, drops into case then spins (liquidizer added?) then dried. more accurate and safer than trying to drip a drop of mix into the case. Center fire primers probably make the same way without the spinning.
22 cases are probably made with OLD deep forming equipment, no/little PM on them. I have noticed the new cheap stuff won't fit and old 50s chamber. Guess new chambers opened up too.

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Originally Posted by TimD

CCI uses a method that requires drying. Not sure if it is the liquid process you are referring to...
https://youtu.be/_rCZHG_eEak?t=278

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Go back to 3:33 of that video to see how they do it. It's a pellet, of course it's wet when they work with it. Otherwise....BOOM.

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Originally Posted by Burnt Fingers

Go back to 3:33 of that video to see how they do it. It's a pellet, of course it's wet when they work with it. Otherwise....BOOM.

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Does not seem right to call something soft and wet a pellet. Technically I think it is a glob

glob
[ɡläb]
NOUN
informal
a lump of a semiliquid substance.