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I just inherited a Arisaka 6.5x50
Is is a complete not-modified (stock) long rifle. It even had the original leather sling which is now hard as nails.
There is a number 5 stamped on the buttstock. No other obvious markings as I need to do some cleaning before anything becomes clear.
Any thoughts? Anyone know much about re-habbing this kind of old rifle? Any do's or dont's?
thanks ( pictures later)
atr
I had a 6.5 Jap rifle that I later gave to my brother as a decorator piece. It had turned out to be a smooth bore two piece barrel blank firing training rifle. So always check for that first off.
First off the Lacquer used for the stocks of most to these rifles contains a toxic natural insect repellent. Any sanding dust if inhaled can cause serious respiratory problems especially if one is particularly allergic to it. Its best not to refinish these anyway. Just clean and inspect it properly before test firing.
I inherited one too, full mum with dust cover. Mine was full of sand when I took it apart to clean it. The stock was beat to all smithereens, but no cracks and the metal is in good shape. The only thing I did besides a good cleaning was a coating of tung oil on the stock. It was pretty dried out. It's a really good shooter with j-words, though I haven't got around to casting for it. My recommendation would be not to refinish it. Any more they are becoming collectible in all original condition.
Start with BLO (Boiled Linseed Oil) on the stock. Get some liquid lanolin or soft lanolin or mink oil and slowly work the leather soft. Don't use anything abrasive until you know what you have, and probably not then. Pull the action out of the stock and see what it is like - you may have rust or oil softened wood. Rub the BLO on with nothing more aggressive than burlap bag cloth. Get some light machine oil and rub down the metal - keep it off the wood. Machine oil is what causes oil softened wood. Use a nickle on edge to rub off rust with the oil. In other words, use original natural materials and go slow and easy.
How come no one has mentioned pulling the bolt and looking down the barrel?
run a brush and some good bore cleaner through the barrel and see what you ave to work with internally.
Collector or shooter . . . Barrel condition is still important.
^^^What he said^^^ Boiled linseed oil is good stuff. It takes quite a while to dry but it does and is very good for the wood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Smith
Check it over, clean it up, slug the bore, then go shooting. Don't mess with an original gun (no sandpaper, no refinishing, no cutting of anything). If you're wanting to try customizing a rifle, there's a ton of bubba specials out there than can be had cheap. The originals are getting harder to find each year, and they're getting more expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by atr
TClewis has a good point about the barrel...I did start there; pulled the bolt and I am now in the process of trying to clean the barrel. I want to see if there is any rifling left. I see signs that the rifling is present, but it is going to take some effort to get that barrel cleaned up. I would like to shoot this, it is a model 38, but that will depend on the condition of the barrel.Quote:
How come no one has mentioned pulling the bolt and looking down the barrel?
I sprayed the leather sling and the stock with leather conditioner I have around for using on my chaps. The sling is just beginning to get supple and the conditioner really cleaned the stock. I am not going to do any standing or anything else cosmetic to this rifle.
So far I have not found much in the way of production markings.
Keep in mind that Arisakas were rifled with "Metford" rifling. Do not expect sharp lands and grooves, but shallow valleys and rounded hills. Many an Arisaka rifle has been trashed because someone thought it was "shot out" when they looked at the rifling. Try soaking the bore with Kroil to loosen the fouling. Most of the ones I have cleaned had pretty extensive jacket fouling that acted like pitting. Once this was removed, the bores were fine. Many of the M38s had chrome lined bores. The chrome plating was not of uniform thickness but did mostly prevent corrosion from mercuric primers and jungle humidity.Quote:
Originally Posted by atr
Curator....thanks for that tip and information...
I am in the learning process with this rifle...
atr
What curator said. If you get it nice and shiny clean (easy enough with the chromed bores) you can look down it and see the rifling, but it'll look more like swirls in the light than real sharp cut rifling. Check the crown on it, may have to touch that up more likely than the bore is bad. Most of them haven't been shot enough to have bad bores, and they usually clean up well. Have heard stories of guys overpaying for junked up ones "because it had a pristine bore!" When usually, the bores are not a concern. I am keeping an eye out for a decent type 38 for a good price just to go with my type 99. They are good rifles and very well made, strong actions for the most part. Also some of the cheapest to get into these days. Just dont fall into the trap of spending money on it to make it worth more, often gains are not realized and it is possible to put more into them than they are worth. Which to me is fine, since shooting is my main goal!
There is a guy in my town with a sporterized Arisaka 99 that looks in really nice shape...good bore and has been shot recently. (safe).
He want's $150. I decided to get a 45/70 in a Handi Rifle instead for $200. Is the 99 considered comparable to the 6.5mm?
The 99s are just as strong as the 38s but are simpler and not as well finished. Except for last ditch ones, they are great rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traffer
The lack of action markings is of concern. Have they been buffed off or do you have a "trainer"?? There should be a Mum with characters on the top and a serial # and three interlocking circles on the left action side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traffer
The Type 99s are chambered in 7.7x58 (basically .31 caliber like an Lee-Enfield or Mosin-Nagant) and is comparable to 30-06 or 308Win in effectiveness. For reloading, its easier to load for than the Type 38s as you can use trimmed down and reformed 30-06 brass or simply necked down 8x57 or necked up 7x57 brass and LEE makes an affordable 175gr bullet mold for the Fat .31 rifles.
I reload my Type 99s using 303 British load data and it performs great.
If you don't want it, let me know the fellow's name and I'll work out a transfer of cash with him.
It is on Armslist and he won't do shipping.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce drake
I have (what we believe to be) a last ditch Type 99 that was sporterized by someone in my family. (Got it from my grandfather)
Wayne Smith (above) helped me refinish the stock with Tung Oil, install a Limbsaver pad, and a Lyman receiver sight.
It hits hard on both ends, and was reamed for a 30-06. It still has the mum on the receiver, but because it was reamed, removes all collector value. (Won't sell it anyways..)
I haven't shot it since we were working up loads for it (I was in High School), but it's sitting in the cabinet.
I need to get it out and maybe pop a deer this year..
So far I have found nothing like what you describe. The top of the chamber does not look to have been buffed. I will check the left side of the action which is only partially visible due to the stock.Quote:
The lack of action markings is of concern. Have they been buffed off or do you have a "trainer"?? There should be a Mum with characters on the top and a serial # and three interlocking circles on the left action side.
Thanks for the tip !
update: 10/10/18 at 0910 hrs.
I can only find the number 37 stamped on the left side of the receiver, just above the stock. I also find this same number stamped on the bottom of the chamber. The only other number is a large number 5 on the side of the butt-stock. The top of the chamber does not have any markings.
atr
The Arisakas were a very strong action. There have been tests done on them and they surprised those that did the tests. As been said before, they are getting hard to find a decent one that hasn't been messed with. If you want to build a custom rifle with one of these actions, try to find one that has been bubbed already. The original ones are not only getting hard to find, but are bringing good prices.
As a side note, the 99's and 38's were very similar, but there are some small differences. Although they look the same, the bolts are different as are the firing pins. The 99's look like they will work in the 38's, but they will lock up the action once the trigger is pulled. It was a real challenge for me to figure out how to get it apart without destroying anything. Both are a good solid piece, though.
I had bought one about 40 years ago for $15, but at that time, there was little to no ammunition for it, so it went down the road for what I paid for it without ever having fired it. Now days, there are sources for brass, dies, and load data. (Grafs has new brass for both the 6.5 and the 7.7)
Is the safety a hook or a cap? Pics might help but I'm no expert. I rebarreled a 38 to 8x57mm years ago. The mag length dictated 150gr or less bullets but it is a shooter.
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The safety is a round cap. The bolt assembly comes apart by rotating the round safety. I am pretty sure it is a model 38.
I don't know how the metal was originally finished but there appears to be no blueing. I think it may have had some type of coating, but not blueing.
After I soaked the action in solvent I was able to unscrew the barrel by hand.
I'm not sure if this will help but here's a link to some information that will identify your Arisaka. A simple way to tell if it's a model 38 or 99 is to count the number of vent holes in the top of the breach,a 38 has two while a 99 has one. I've two 99's and have been lusting for a 38 just because. http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html
Good luck with it and pictures would help to identify what you have. I'd be careful if the barrel comes off the action that easily, something isn't right. They usually need a lot of grunt work in a vice to move.
Post info and pictures of the rifle on the Japanese forum on GunBoards for help with what you have.The lack of markings bothers me.
some pictures, also a single vent hole so it may be a model 99
Attachment 228593Attachment 228594Attachment 228595Attachment 228596
That's definitely NOT how my barrel came out! You may well have a blank firing trainer there. Post #23 has a point.
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I'm with Ken and Texas on this one, a whole isn't adding up on this rifle. The barrel shouldn't do that and it certainly should have the serial number on the left side, with a series mark in front of that and the arsenal mark on the other end as Texas said. Be VERY cautious, the blank-firing only trainers are thought by many to be what gave these rifles a reputation for being weak, unsafe actions when an unsuspecting GI would load a cartridge in one and fire it. They are cast receivers (the training/school rifles) that were never made to fire live rounds. I have read some sources that state they had a two piece barrel on the trainer. The safety looks like an early production, non "last-ditch" style, but that could also fit a trainer. The quickest test I know is to first check the barrel for rifling, the trainers arent supposed to have any. Then, if this all does turn out that it is a legitimate rifle, you'll need to get that barrel properly torqued before you try and use it.
Also... can't see from your photos but the bolt on a trainer doesn't have front locking lugs, just two in the rear. You can't fit a rifle bolt into a trainer but you can fit a trainer into a rifle (BAD IDEA). The trainers often had a set screw under the action that held the barrel in, cant tell if it's there from the photos either. And, I dont believe that barrel looks right, like it threads into a receiver extension, on a regular (battle) rifle that is all once piece that comes out together I believe. The trainers have been known to have lose barrels in them as well, and may have very slow turn rifling or straight rifling as well. SO, 3 questions, does the bolt have front locking lugs, does it have a setscrew under the receiver, and lastly does it have rifling? Oh and what is the bore diameter to know if it is a type 99, which it appears to be by the single gas vent hole.
1. yes, two front locking lugsQuote:
SO, 3 questions, does the bolt have front locking lugs, does it have a setscrew under the receiver, and lastly does it have rifling? Oh and what is the bore diameter to know if it is a type 99, which it appears to be by the single gas vent hole.
2. No set-screw under the receiver
3. it does appear to have rifling, although I am still working on getting the barrel cleaned out.
I agree, something is NOT right about the way the barrel came lose.Quote:
I'd be careful if the barrel comes off the action that easily, something isn't right. They usually need a lot of grunt work in a vice to move.
thanks guys....its a learning curve !
That vent hole looks like it is off center to the left which is different from my two 99's but matches or is close to where one of the vent holes is located on a model 38. The bolt doesn't have any serial numbers on the top of the handle either but I'm not familiar with serial number placement on a model 38. From the way the barrel attaches I'm going to say it's a trainer.
OK,
the only number stamped is 37 which is found on the bottom of the bolt handle, on the round "safety", and on the receiver.
there is also a cartouche stamped on both the bottom of the bolt handle, and on the round "safety" at the back of the bolt. This cartouche is very hard to make out and I could not match it with any of the markings per http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html
The barrel does not appear to have any rifling.
The top of the receiver does not appear to have had the symbol ground off. No grinding marks are present.
I think the general consensus that this is a training rifle is correct.
Either that or it is a rare firearm, worth millions ...in which case I will be selling it and retiring!
Question: what would you do with this antique?
Hang it on the wall is what I'd do.
Same here. A box of original Japanese blanks probably cost more than the gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShooterAZ
Object D'art!
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https://youtu.be/WaznkI2yF7s
real vs trainer details
I bought a 7.7 in a bar back in the 70s for 10 bucks. It was about like new and the ugliest gun id ever seen. there was a poor old ex logger that lived out by our camp in a one room cabin and killed everything with a 12 guage single shot and #6 shot. for deer he made cut shot out of them. I gave him the gun and the 5 boxes of shells the guy who sold it to me threw in. Youd have thought I gave the old bugger a brick of gold when he saw it. Im sure no expert on them. I shot exactly one shell through it to hear it go bang.
eric,
that link you provided was VERY useful...thanks
I do believe I have a training rifle
i'd learn what history is available on jap trainers, hang the gun on the wall, and amaze your friends with well told historical stories. of course, selling it for millions has a certain panache, too.
Interesting but a nice wall hanger