Low pressure smokeless 12 ga

I have this classy old hammer gun I used to shoot the heck out of with black only because of the twist barrels. Recently I saw where a fellow was shooting smokeless in a old twist barrel and said it was safe because his smokeless loads produced less pressure than black. My first question would be is this possible? What would such a load be and what would be it’s pressure? It was always told to me that black and smokeless developed pressure differently. Black being lower and longer drawn out but smokeless is quick and tends to develops a fast spike in pressure. This faster spike even being lower was what was actually more harmful to those old twist barrels. Now all of this I was told a long time ago and I am wondering does all this still hold true or has time changes it?
If it were actually possible to safely shoot smokeless in my old double 12 ga with pressures less than black I just might break it out for a round of doves.
Ideas? Loads?

Dont do it just use black powder

If the barrels are twisted steel hammer welded to make a barrel, i would not shoot it with any powder from my understanding. From what I understand is that such barrels can rust and no matter what powder can blow out a section when the welds have corroded and are failing.

If you must shoot here are the issues and many think it is safe to shoot them so with a qualified gunsmith and where you find one of those in the USA I have no idea"

“Damascus-barreled shotguns in good repair are highly functional,” Jacob said. “Barrel integrity is the most important— and the least understood—element of shooting vintage Damascus-barreled shotguns. Before you buy a Damascus-barreled shotgun, have a reputable gunsmith inspect your firearm.

“I find that barrels fail inspection from one of three distinct issues,” he said. “The first comes from pitted bores, which are often caused by a manufacturer’s use of soft iron or poor welding techniques.

“Pitting also can come from improper storage over time. If the bores have been reamed to remove rust and pits, then the wall thickness is altered. When excessive amounts of metal are removed, then the barrel integrity is compromised and is therefore weakened. Gunsmiths use micrometers to measure barrel thickness in a variety of places and then compare those measurements with factory specs.

“A second reason Damascus guns fail inspection is because the barrels have been dented while hunting. It’s easy to remove dings from fluid steel barrels, but their removal from twist barrels creates a soft spot and lessens barrel integrity.

“A third issue resulting in failed inspections relates to chokes. Most vintage guns had tighter chokes. Improved cylinder and modified were common, and modified and full were as well. If your candidate has cylinder and skeet chokes, then the odds are high that the chokes have been opened at some point. Each of these conditions is easily assessed by a competent gunsmith with a micrometer.”

Shooting low-compression shells is a must. Thanks to companies such as RST and Polywad, these traditional shells are commercially available.

“Chambers in the 1800s were the standard of the day, 2 1/2 or 2 5⁄8 inches,” Jacob noted. “While a modern 2 3/4-inch shell will fit into the chamber, they pose problems upon discharge. Modern shells feature full crimps and, when fired, the crimp extends beyond the chamber’s length. Damage to forcing cones and hinge pins along with increased compression are a by-product.

“All that is necessary is to shoot short, low-compression shells from companies like RST Shotshells and Polywad, among others.”

Shawn Wayment is a bird hunting veterinarian from Colorado who specializes in treating bird dogs. He isn’t afraid to reach into his gun cabinet and extract a Damascus-barreled shotgun.

“I’ve got seven Damascus guns,” he said. “Two are Parkers, two are Lefevers and three are Frank Hollenbeck drillings. Every one of their barrel patterns is unique, and they’re all gorgeous.

“My first Damascus gun was a Parker GH 16 gauge on an O frame,” said Wayment. “Because it’s a 16 gauge on a 20-gauge frame, it’s light and is considered to be the Holy Grail of grouse guns. I found it at M.W. Reynolds shooting and fly fishing store in Denver, and when I mounted the gun, it fit perfectly.

“After a thorough inspection, I bought it on the spot. I’m a bit more careful when hunting with the Damascus gun, and because I hunt at high elevation in rugged terrain, I’m cautious not to ding the barrels. I shoot RST 2 1/2-inch low compression shells, and I’ve killed one heck-of-a-lot of birds. These days I don’t care if a shotgun’s barrels are fluid steel, Damascus or twist. If the gun fits, I buy it.”

Are brand new shotguns with Damascus barrels available? Graham N. Greener, director of W.W. Greener Sporting Guns LTD, has been making shotguns with Damascus barrels for some years.

“Our company was the last English gunmaking company to make Damascus barrels and production of these ceased in 1903,” he said. “However, we had a stock of these and so we decided to make shotguns with these barrels again and some with steel and Damascus interchangeable barrels. These have mostly been sidelock side-by-side sporting shotguns in 12 and 20 bore. All have been made to individual orders, including pairs and sets of guns. Many are featured on our website.”

There is a reason that Damascus barrels are no longer in current production, and that’s because the quality of available materials is metallurgically harder than before. Still, one gunsmith, Missouri’s Steve Culver, gave it a try.
pistol knife
More at: https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/da...safe-to-shoot/

On the positive side if a Damascus or more properly damascene steel barrel fails normally just a piece of the barrel blows out so the worst that happens is parts of your hand or finger(s) goes with it and you face and eyes are probably ok. You have two hands and 10 fingers and do not need all of them to more or less live a normal life.
Me I would consider lining such a gun to smaller gauge just to be safe.

The bores need to be quite good and without large pits, shiny is good. Outer finish needs to be good as well. Hold the barrels using one finger under the lump and strike the sides with anything you have on hand that is metal, say a screwdriver or punch. If they give off a dull sound, don't shoot it. If they give a high ring, you may be good to go, but that's as much as I can say without seeing them in person. Just because they give a high ring does not mean you're safe. I said 'may' be good to go. But it will tell you right away if it's a 'may' or a 'no way'. Further close inspection is needed for 100%, but if they meet all this then 90% of the time you're good. I always recommend sticking to black. There are some smokeless loads within range, and while they are good and the stories of bursting barrels do not arise from them, the problem arises over time, as they have a sharper torgue and wear on the lump and bite, which will bring your gun off face. This will not happen quickly and may take years, but eventually you'll have to have your gun brought back on face, which is not a cheap fix. This is the reason you see so many poor doubles off face, because when smokeless came out, everyone used it regardless.

A lot of good information coming out and I do thank you all.
A bit more information. The old gun is of Belgium manufacture but is very high quality with delicate English scroll engraving and gold inlays and one of the finer pieces of French walnut I have ever seen. I can’t do pictures or I would post them.
The barrels have no pitting whatever inside or out and does have the short 2 1/2” chambers. The chokes do not appear to have been modified. I will do the ring test next time I have it out.
I load for it and the last time I did I used the equivalent of a 20 gage load thinking it would keep pressures down. Am not trying to get full power loads for hunting but rather something very light just more to see it will break a close range clay pigeon or two. By going to a light 20 ga. load would it drop the overall pressure?

Some reading:

https://www.rstshells.com/

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums...40772&page=all

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4763

Post #1
https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=37470
https://parkerguns.org/forums/attach...1&d=1665027856
https://parkerguns.org/forums/attach...2&d=1665027856
https://parkerguns.org/forums/attach...3&d=1665027856

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1589

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16462

https://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content...10/ceretto.pdf

I have a W&C Scott & Son 10 ga. Damascus twist barrel shotgun built in 1881. It has certainly seen better days but I have been told by a gunsmith that it is safe to shoot with BP or BP equivalent pressure loads and plan to do that after I do some stock repairs and have the action tightened up.

I know of others shooting Damascus twist barreled guns that have been approved for shooting by gunsmiths. I know of one fellow that has a Damascus barreled shotgun that has been reproofed for nitro loads.

So, the short story is that as long as a qualified gunsmith says it is safe to shoot you will be okay. Note that RST is a commercial ammunition manufacturer that states that their ammunition is suitable for use in Damascus barreled guns in good condition. If there was a significant liability they wouldn't be saying that.

You'll have to make your own decision as to whether you will load for it and shoot it with BP or smokeless after the gun is checked by a gunsmith but it seems pretty evident that there are smokeless loads that are safe for Damascus barreled guns in good condition.

Longbow

For what it's worth, I've seen a lot of beautiful Damascus barreled hammer guns on Holts auctions which have been re-proofed for smokeless loads - Like this one:

https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.co...1568&saletype=

As long as the pressure is within safe limits, it doesn't matter much if it's black powder or smokeless, but to reach the same velocity of e.g. 1200 fps, the smokeless load will create a higher max pressure than the BP. Also, you can load BP loads to ridiculous low speed without worrying about "bloopers". With only three different grades of BP, you can load for almost any gun you can think of. Smokeless, not so much. I can count at least seven different Norma powders in my collection - and that's just for rifle cartridges.

For the old doubles, even the very fine guns, you're looking at actions of 1018 to 1020 steel, so none of the 4130 or special alloys we have now. They just wear more readily. Casing them helped, but that's just surface. With black all is ok. Add smokeless and your average farmer John loading high brass 1 1/4 oz. loads in a 12 and things wear a little. Most of that was done during the transition of powders, the guy goes in the hardware store and see's 12's and gets a box. The ammunition companies wanted to sell shells, and people didn't speak of 'pressures' like we do today, one was lucky to have a tv, so if it was the right gauge and it fired, it worked. Fast forward to the 70's and the old double is rattling a little. I went to school with boys that used the newest high-power shells in their grandpa's doubles and were completely oblivious to any of this. I've seen a lot of burst damascus barrels, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that over 90% were due to an obstruction in them upon firing and had nothing to do with smokeless at all. Sure, they are not 4130 alloy, but they are extremely tough and were proofed in their day, and at least here in the States, one can just re-proof the gun themselves if they have doubts, but it's generally not necessary. The big thing to watch for is going to be those guns that are more than frostily pitted, with questionable pits, and the deal breaker will be between the soldered ribs where water or condensation may have occurred to a degree that it's questionable. And you can't 'see' in there, so that's where a re-proof comes in, or it becomes a wall hanger, or, in some cases one can be sleeved. I have an 11-bore Tolley that was sleeved to 16 and I still use it, although it's a little heavy this way, and I'll never know if it was done due to pitting or because 11-bore shells simply could not be found anymore. But that is a viable option. It adds weight, but does not detract from the pleasure of using a piece of history.

this is the one place where spending the coin and purchasing a set of chamber reducing inserts makes perfect sense...because they supply their own chambers and partial barrels,the whole pressure thing is pretty much rendered a moot point. close range doves,rabbits,ducks are perfectly doable with even the wee .410 and you lot can get heavishot at prices where its actually feasible to use it,so anything is possible even big geese.
but your low pressure loads......that would be cowboy action loads.plenty of them around.

Another option is making up some 'mini' shells using a roll crimping tool to assemble loads that are equivalent to a 28 ga or so. I use about 5/8 ounce of shot with a stack of cards to fill the case. I will look up my load. The tool is cheap at ballistic Products. I also use this (attached screenshot)light load in my full length shells.

Attachment 316987Attachment 316988Attachment 316989

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Originally Posted by Jungle Dave

, and people didn't speak of 'pressures' like we do today,

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Although this has merit, it is not really completely true. We all know America in rural areas was not very educated at all by 1900. However, educated and ignorant are a bit different. The most uneducated, or illiterates in the old west and early 1900's, would be those typically using shotguns such as sod busters, prospectors and those during the land rush times...folks moving out west. Lets face it, the north-east was probably the most educated during those times, but could also be the most ignorant as well.

Even black powder types were divided into separate categories, so to speak, to keep pressures down due to burn rates needed for a particular application. These would be Cannon, Fg, FFg, FFFg and even FFFFg. Anyone ever try using FFFFg in a cannon in the same why you would cannon powder? Smokeless powder was a bit more confusing, but not much different in layman's terms although a bit more technical.. i.e. Shotgun, Rifle and Pistol smokeless powders...Bulk powders and Dense powders. To keep it simple, bulk smokeless powders were used in the old black powder arms while dense smokeless powders were used in the modern smokeless powder arms.

Even so, Dupont advertised right on the early 1894 "bulk for bulk" powder cans that these early powders created less pressures but maintained the same, if not sometimes more velocity then black powder loads. This was true, especially with Dupont, for those powders used in shotguns, rifles and some pistols. Dupont manufactured Shotgun, Rifle No.1, Rifle No. 2 bulk smokeless powder, of which No.2 rifle was used in some of the larger black powder pistol cartridges.

Many of the older magazines, articles and books speak much of the pressure concerns in such arms from their inception and by 1899/1900, as it got confusing for many that used them. Even educated folks, out of natural ignorance, trying to use shotgun powders in high power rifles got a rude awakening just as folks using pistol powders or high power smokeless powders in shotguns got a rude awaking! The main issue was folks trying to load the powders bulk for bulk like black powder, big mistake for any Dense smokeless powder...not so much for the bulk for bulk smokeless powders.


It is a bit more technical now days, but...

There used to be a lot of interest in loading very-low-pressure smokeless rounds for old black powder guns, and the powder of choice was PB. However, this has been discontinued, supposedly for lack of demand.

Some really good solid information of all types is coming out and I would like to thank all who have contributed. Myself I plan on printing it all off and keeping it with the old double in case a grand kid wants to pick up where I leave off.
Now another thought that might be a simple answer and I see where it has been brought up at least once is to purchase a set of chamber inserts. Chiappa I see makes them at a very fair price.
Has anyone tried a set in 20 ga. or even 410?

Briley sub gauge tubes , not cheap but they will keep you safe.

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Originally Posted by Reg

Some really good solid information of all types is coming out and I would like to thank all who have contributed. Myself I plan on printing it all off and keeping it with the old double in case a grand kid wants to pick up where I leave off.
Now another thought that might be a simple answer and I see where it has been brought up at least once is to purchase a set of chamber inserts. Chiappa I see makes them at a very fair price.
Has anyone tried a set in 20 ga. or even 410?

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Perhaps titanium alloy or scandium could be used to keep the wt down. That would be a question for people well versed in metallurgy.
It used to be the ideal southeastern quail gun was a light wt and short 16 ga double. Putting sleeves that altered the balance would defeat the purpose of the gun.

Do you folks understand the danger to be primarily in the chamber? I was considering a pair of the Short Lane inserts but was not sure that the chamber was the only concern.
https://www.gunadapters.com/categori...eatured&page=1

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Originally Posted by BrianL

Do you folks understand the danger to be primarily in the chamber? I was considering a pair of the Short Lane inserts but was not sure that the chamber was the only concern.
https://www.gunadapters.com/categori...eatured&page=1

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The chamber seems to be the most common place for failure with the forcing cone maybe the area of highest pressure.

https://www.trapshooters.com/attachm...n-jpg.1860297/

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Originally Posted by barnetmill

The chamber seems to be the most common place for failure with the forcing cone maybe the area of highest pressure.

https://www.trapshooters.com/attachm...n-jpg.1860297/

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That makes good sense. Do you think that the smaller bore of the adapter's entrance into the forcing cone would alleviate the most of that pressure?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrianL

That makes good sense. Do you think that the smaller bore of the adapter's entrance into the forcing cone would alleviate the most of that pressure?

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Not sure about alleviating pressure, but the better steel of the insert will certainly withstand pressure a lot better for the areas that it reinforces.

Do we get a story with the pic of the blown chamber? There is always a story.

Was that shot with low pressure smokeless load? 2 1/2" chamber gun shot with modern 2 3/4" ammunition?

The barrels certainly look to be in good shape... except for the piece missing.

Some details would be beneficial for all.

Longbow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by longbow

Do we get a story with the pic of the blown chamber? There is always a story.

Was that shot with low pressure smokeless load? 2 1/2" chamber gun shot with modern 2 3/4" ammunition?

The barrels certainly look to be in good shape... except for the piece missing.

Some details would be beneficial for all.

Longbow

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https://www.trapshooters.com/threads...-smith.856635/
Drew Hause · #12

So, from that post they were using 2 3/4" modern loads in a 2 1/2" chambered Damascus barreled gun!

"The shells were 12g and the study compared 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers with a short and a longer cone. The rise in pressure was 385 psi to 1216 psi.
1216 could be significant if the pressure of the shell was already at the SAAMI max. of 11,500 psi +/- 900 psi ie. 1,200 + 11,500 + 900 = 13,600 psi"

I have no doubt that many Damascus barreled guns would fail with that combination! Possibly some more modern guns as well!

The OP asked if he could use low pressure BP equivalent smokeless loads in his Damascus barreled gun, not modern loads longer than the chamber.

Again, if the pressure is equivalent to BP and the gun is sound then the answer seems to be "Yes!" If it is safe with BP then it will be safe with BP equivalent pressure smokeless loads. Why wouldn't it be?

And, again, if there was any significant liability companies like RST would not be selling smokeless loaded ammunition that is rated to be used in Damascus barreled guns.

Longbow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by longbow

So, from that post they were using 2 3/4" modern loads in a 2 1/2" chambered Damascus barreled gun!

"The shells were 12g and the study compared 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers with a short and a longer cone. The rise in pressure was 385 psi to 1216 psi.
1216 could be significant if the pressure of the shell was already at the SAAMI max. of 11,500 psi +/- 900 psi ie. 1,200 + 11,500 + 900 = 13,600 psi"

I have no doubt that many Damascus barreled guns would fail with that combination! Possibly some more modern guns as well!

The OP asked if he could use low pressure BP equivalent smokeless loads in his Damascus barreled gun, not modern loads longer than the chamber.

Again, if the pressure is equivalent to BP and the gun is sound then the answer seems to be "Yes!" If it is safe with BP then it will be safe with BP equivalent pressure smokeless loads. Why wouldn't it be?

And, again, if there was any significant liability companies like RST would not be selling smokeless loaded ammunition that is rated to be used in Damascus barreled guns.

Longbow

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A modern gun should not fail from 2,100 psi over max pressure. I would want any gun that I used to hold together to at least 50% over max pressure and with shotguns used for hunting likely a lot more.
But we are adults here and make our own choices.

I took a look at the Chiappa tubes but didn’t see where they have any form of extractor. Did I miss something or do you carry a screwdriver around to pry the fired shells out?

I totally agree, a modern gun should not fail from 2100 PSI over pressure but that pic is of a Damascuss barreled gun shot with a modern 2 3/4" load in a 2 1/2" chamber so the chamber pressure was about double what the Damascus is rated for.

Longbow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by longbow

I totally agree, a modern gun should not fail from 2100 PSI over pressure but that pic is of a Damascuss barreled gun shot with a modern 2 3/4" load in a 2 1/2" chamber so the chamber pressure was about double what the Damascus is rated for.

Longbow

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A damascus gun in good shape as it left the factory 120 years or more ago should not catastrophically fail from such a load. My concern is during hunting that things can happen to elevate pressures. Mossbergs are cheap and a lot safer even if they have absolutely no class at all. I would not mind using them for trap shooting with low pressure correct shells and I would go black powder. But again big boy rules.

Damascus bbl'd guns are routinely Proofed/re-proofed in Europe right along with steel bbl'd guns.
They get no special loads for proofing. They get the same Proof Loads as any other.
The gun either passes or fails.
Most guns fail proof upon examination anyway,,loose lockup, excess headspace, etc. Not from a 'blow up'.

Shooting damascus or other twist steel bbl'd guns is a choice of the shooter obviously. There is plenty said on both sides.

Yes there are smokeless shotshell loads , recipes right from the mfg'rs of the componenets that will give you chamber pressures at and even below what BP loads will register.
You have to follow the recipe to the letter with no changes.
The favorite powders for those loads are fast becoming extinct.
PB and 7625 were favorites. With them (especially 7625) 12ga loads could be made up with common components to give chamber pressures in the 5000psi range. There were even a few listed in the high 4000psi range.
Velocitys were no joke coming in at 1100fps with 7/8oz loads.
10 and 12ga will give those low chamber pressures. The small bores are not so easy to get those lower pressures with smokeless but there are some recipes out there

Pezio checks of the pressure curves show a near perfect match with the BP loads. So the fear of high pressures further down the bbls is not there IF you follow the recipe(s).
It's all been done over and over again. Data to please the Damascus smokeless powder shooters. The nay-sayers still contend that every damascus bbl'd gun is a handgrenade ready for you to detonate by pulling the trigger.

It's like the 'Shoot it/Don't' shoot it back and forth over Low# 1903 Springfields. It never gets to a diffinitive answer. Just more dug in opinions lined up on each side with talking points in hand.


Thought, time and accurate measurements must be gotten from the bbl's themselves.
Not every gun is a good candidate for shooting no matter what the bbl material is.
Bores that have been honed out and over bored, thinned walls, extended forcing cones, extended chamber lengths and other 'repairs' such as hammered back into place bulges in the tubes should be carefully looked at and for.

Removing bbl wall material just to make them shinny and sparkle back at you when you look thru them is just material & strength lost.
Start with a better gun if it's pitted badly.

There's no certificate of 100% safety that comes with any firearm. Anything can happen and does even with modern mfgr'd guns.
I've seen many that have come back into their factory with split bbl's, banana splits at the muzzle, cracked breech blocks and all sorts of damage.
Some from the customers fault, others just a failure of the materials used to make them.
It happens. Just like bridges collapsing, bungee cords snapping and planes falling from the sky.

Lots of people shoot damascus and have no issues. Lots of people hang them on the wall.
Read up,,then chose for yourself.

If you feel the least bit unsure about it,,then don't.

I use 800x for my vintage guns ,look at the load data for it you will see the pressures are much lower than other powders and velocities around 1150 to 1250 fps are achievable.
My Boswell damascus barrelled sxs pigeon gun is one I use regularly on small game .

Before this thread goes way down under, I wanted to mention some things that I had failed to last time. I use black in mine only because, 'for me', it is easier. I never enjoyed the finer points of getting smokeless loads where they needed to be, and I suppose I'm lazy in that regard. I would, however, use smokeless loads of 7000psi or less in any of my guns without hesitation. I simply do not have any on hand. 7000psi is generally agreed upon to be the limit, although I've seen some push it to 8000psi, but I would recommend sticking to 7000 or below. A rise of 500psi to 1000psi can come from using a 2 3/4" shell in a 2 1/2" chamber. Plastic wads add pressure too, by 500psi or more. I've always stuck with fiber wads because the plastic ones do not mix with black, but I'd even prefer fiber with smokeless. Forcing cones are steeper, instead of the long and gradual on modern guns designed for plastic wads. One more thing, and perhaps the one thing I kicked myself for forgetting, was that most of us do not use abusive loads due to the barrels alone, but because of the wood. I have some on the verge with hairline cracks that have formed, and I'd like to prolong repairs or complete re-stocking as long as I can. The barrels will take it if in good shape, but the stocks at this age will not. 7000psi or under smokeless is good to go with sound barrels. I stand firm on that statement.

What I did was order two of the Chiappa 410 adaptors. They did require a tiny bit of fitting at the rim but I fitted them tight to allow for any future wear. No. They do not have extractors. The original extractor on the gun raised the adaptor and the fired shell out of the chamber by about 3/8” and there is a milled relief that you set to the 10 or 2 position depending on which barrel it is in and so far all cases tested flip right out with your fingernail. I felt no resistance using 444, blown out 303 , paper and plastic cases. The inserts are very well made. I didn’t have all this done in time for doves but for whatever reason we have been blessed with a great overabundance of cottontails this year so in the weeks remaining before a good frost I want to do some pattern work. While the inserts are turned from steel they did add a minor amount of weight but didn’t change the balance point. There were many ways I could have gone with this but to this point this seems for me at least to be the best way to go.

Sounds like a great way to go, and it just makes me want a .410 double even more, be it lined or not, I just have a love for the little cartridge. I keep waiting for a nice late-Victorian to pop up so I can grab it at reasonable price, but they are few. I may settle for one of the folding poacher's guns or get me 2 Chaszel liners. Everything out there that is not 12 or 16 commands a big premium, even if it's not in as good a shape. I may just do what you did. Should be great on the cottontails!

Update

12 cottontails so far and the inserts are working fine. If you want to get that old double going again this seems to be a safe, fun way to do it!
Now for the rabbits! Three bunny’s boned gives you roughly four pounds of meat. Grind with about four pounds of pork butt and add sage and a couple other spices and you have an excellent breakfast sausage. It will be very lean but if you want you could add a little fat.

great to read its worked out for you. the 410is a wonderful wee round.

I have a set of Briley Side Kicks -20,28, and 410
I regularly use them in my Damascus barreled shotguns for practice during the off season, and switch to black and brass cases for bird season.
The recoil difference in a 20 gauge 7/8 oz load going about 1,200FPS and a 1 1/8 oz load of lead using black powder going about,1,180 FPS uis very noticeable , although the 1 1/8 and black powder load is not uncomfortable.
I started using the Smokeless loads and Side Kicks for a few reasons, the actual cost of loading black powder versus Smokeless being one.
David

Good Morning, i would like to give my contribution to this discussion. Here in in Italy i have been working with a friend that has a fine English damascus double in excellent conditions. Same issue black powder vs smokeless. What we have done successfully is this: we studied a load (65 mm shell, 2 1/2 in. roll crimp) that had a max pressure of 500 bar (7250 psi) and a velocity of 380 ms (1240 ft sec). We were able to achieve this with a 28 grams (1 oz) pellet load. Nedless to say, they work fine on game. We are fortunate here, we had our loads tested in a pressure barrel gauge to be on the safe side. After trial and error... a few euros spent in testing different combinations, we found the appropriate load.

At one time my friend and I loaded Federal hulls using 700X ( 17.5 grains IIRC) from a Hodgdon manual that listed the load as under 7,---PSI.
It was a very good load for skeet .
I prefer my side kicks however.
David

I shoot my Parker PH with twist steel barrels using 7/8oz loads under 6,000 psi using published data. Have your barrels gaged and inspected by a side by side specialist before shooting. If your wall thickness isn’t adequate, I’d not shoot it at all. Also, if this gun has some family significance remember that parts can be very difficult to find/make if you break something. Best of luck.

One of the very few 12 Ga. shotguns I own (I generally prefer 16's) is an old 1903 Ithaca Lewis with beautiful Damascus barrels. I could shoot low- pressure smokeless loads through it but, it is just as easy for me to load and shoot Blackpowder. The only concession I have to make is to use Paper hulls, which isn't much of a problem since it has 2 1/2" chambers and I trim down the shells accordingly. Besides I LIKE the look of the crimps in a paper hull and the smell of BP!

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Originally Posted by David todd

I have a set of Briley Side Kicks -20,28, and 410
I regularly use them in my Damascus barreled shotguns for practice during the off season, and switch to black and brass cases for bird season.
The recoil difference in a 20 gauge 7/8 oz load going about 1,200FPS and a 1 1/8 oz load of lead using black powder going about,1,180 FPS uis very noticeable , although the 1 1/8 and black powder load is not uncomfortable.
I started using the Smokeless loads and Side Kicks for a few reasons, the actual cost of loading black powder versus Smokeless being one.
David

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Now that is something I had not even thought of until you mentioned it! I have an 1881 W&C Scott & Son 10 ga. damascus barreled gun that isn't in very good shape but I will get it back into shooting shape at some point. I was planning on buying 10 ga. hulls and relaoding using BP, BP sub or low pressure smokeless powder but I really have no desire to load for 10 ga. as I am set up for 12 ga. Looking on the internet the only brand of chamber insert reducer from 10 ga. to 12 ga. I see is Little Skeeter. This may be the way I want to go since I will probably sell the gun once it is fixed up and shootable.

Thanks for posting that info!

Longbow