Chronographed - Underwood 38 Spl +P “Keith” 158 gr SWC

Chronographed a ten shot string of Underwood’s 158 gr “Hard Cast Keith” 38 Special +P

Firearm: Ruger 4 5/8 in Blackhawk
Load: Underwood 158 gr “Hard Cast Keith” SWC 38 Special +P (#734, advertised 1,250 fps)

10 shots:
Hi 1249 fps
Lo 1235 fps
Avg 1241 fps
ES 14
SD 4

Notes: I was amazed at the consistency (checkout the ES/SDs) and power of this 38 Spl +P. Hats off to Underwood for an excellent load. This load rivals my standard 357 Magnum load using 2400 but Underwood is at 38 Spl +P pressures! I will not even try to duplicate Underwood’s 38 Spl +P load. It’s velocity as far as I’m concerned can only be duplicated using 357 Magnum cases and the appropriate magnum level powders…but then you would have a 357 Magnum and not 38 Spl +P!

Underwood, and Buffalo Bore for that matter, must have some very talented ballisticians to develop powder formulas to meet these velocities within SAAMI specs. Here is pic of the Underwood box and ammo sample (sorry for its upside down orientation, doesn’t show up that way in my photo log)

Very impressive velocity, consistency and pressures. The main consideration here is that in addition to professional ballistic engineers with industrial pressure sensing lab equipment is that the powder used is probably some proprietary blend not available to the handloader.

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Originally Posted by Divil

Very impressive velocity, consistency and pressures. The main consideration here is that in addition to professional ballistic engineers with industrial pressure sensing lab equipment is that the powder used is probably some proprietary blend not available to the handloader.

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Yes Sir, spot on, very well said!

As a commercial loading, it tops any of the big three factory 158 gr JSP 357 Magnum loadings in velocity and has the advantage of using a hard cast bullet…all along at 38 Spl +P pressures!

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Originally Posted by Eindecker

Not to be a rain shower on the parade...

I have always seen on the reloading forums that "chamber pressure = velocity". To the point on some other forums they will have knife fights debating that the extra .01 grains of powder will give you an extra 50 fps

However, didnt someone prove that the the buffalo bore +p 38 special with those velocities was actually 38-44 ammunition?

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Yes, 38-44 velocities at 38 Spl +P pressures…I’ll stick with what Underwood and BB are stating since they have expert ballisticians coupled with accurate test equipment and lab environments to ensure that their loads are what they advertise.

Wonder what those loads would clock out of a 2" snubbie?

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Originally Posted by DougGuy

Wonder what those loads would clock out of a 2" snubbie?

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I have 10 left from the box I opened yesterday…they are not getting near my S&W 442. I also purchased two boxes this afternoon from MidwayUSA…great deal and half the price of Buffalo Bore’s version (I chronographed ten of these this morning, great load in its own right and more controllable in my Ruger Blackhawk compared to Underwood’s load (which is nearly 80 fps faster in my Ruger 4 5/8 in)).

:shock: 38+p in name only. Those are .357 mag in .38 brass..:grin:

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Originally Posted by DougGuy

Wonder what those loads would clock out of a 2" snubbie?

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North of 1,000fps

1241fps with a 158 grain from a 4 5/8" barrel, definitely 357mag territory. I would be suspicious of the 38 +P pressure claim propriety powder or not. There is no free lunch so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Sgt H

1241fps with a 158 grain from a 4 5/8" barrel, definitely 357mag territory. I would be suspicious of the 38 +P pressure claim propriety powder or not. There is no free lunch so to speak.

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^^^ This
and ...of course...Why...when shooting thru a 357 mag anyway????

Hi-Speed, if you are going thru Lake Havasu some time you should get a hold of Larry Gibson and get him to run 10 of those thru his Contender with the pressure trace on it and find out what the real pressure is on that load...........

Thank you for posting the data...the load is at least 100 fps faster than the original .38-44s loads. Running 1250 fps from your 4 5/8" Ruger the original .38-44 loads were only running 1115 with a 158 grain bullet from a 5" barrel.

It has been my opinion for decades that the .38 Special, and .44 Special for that matter, have been severely underloaded by the major ammo companies because of the age of the rounds and the very early gun available for them. Guns made after WWII had a vastly better quality of steel and heat treatment than those made before the war. Colt certified their D-frame Detective Special (all steel) for the .38-44/High Speed loads. If J-frame Smiths and Ruger LCRs can be chambered for 9mm that has a pressure rating well over 30k psi and the same guns are also made in .357 Magnum how can these gun when chambered in .38 Special not take the same pressures...just because there is .38 Special stamped on the barrel and SAAMI says so...

Will it blow up an aluminum frame 442/642, no but it would probably stretch the frame or crack the frame under the barrel a is common with these guns...

It would be interesting to know exactly what the pressure is for the BB and Underwood loads...

Thanks again...Bob

Thank you for posting the data...the load is at least 100 fps faster than the original .38-44s loads. Running 1250 fps from your 4 5/8" Ruger the original .38-44 loads were only running 1115 with a 158 grain bullet from a 5" barrel.

It has been my opinion for decades that the .38 Special, and .44 Special for that matter, have been severely underloaded by the major ammo companies because of the age of the rounds and the very early gun available for them. Guns made after WWII had a vastly better quality of steel and heat treatment than those made before the war. Colt certified their D-frame Detective Special (all steel) for the .38-44/High Speed loads. If J-frame Smiths and Ruger LCRs can be chambered for 9mm that has a pressure rating well over 30k psi and the same guns are also made in .357 Magnum how can these gun when chambered in .38 Special not take the same pressures...just because there is .38 Special stamped on the barrel and SAAMI says so...

Will it blow up an aluminum frame 442/642, no but it would probably stretch the frame or crack the frame under the barrel as is common with these guns...

It would be interesting to know exactly what the pressure is for the BB and Underwood loads...

Thanks again...Bob

"It would be interesting to know exactly what the pressure is for the BB and Underwood loads..."

Send me 12 rounds of each and I'll test it. PM me for address.

Actually getting those velocities at +P pressures isn’t that hard!
What’s difficult is assuring that when doing so you don’t actually exceed SAAMI pressures and get into low .357mag territory.

Back in late ‘70’s, I worked with a fellow caster and reloader that “discovered” H4227. He used some older data from a long ago Lyman manual that called for around 12.5gr of H4227. This accomplishes what Underwood is doing.
Difference is, they have access to chronographs and pressure measuring equipment.

Buddy claimed the 1,200fps loads just fell out of the Mod-15 chambers. Later, I worked for another agency and used same load for a Model 65 with cast lead SWC-HP, because they too, dropped from the cylinder, but shot POA and were VERY accurate.

Underwood isn’t exactly reinventing the .38Special +P. Just resurrecting it!

Larry tested two of these Underwood loads. Maybe he will post his resulting data when he gets time.

remember there is no free lunch -- only so much room in a hull- change pressure curves etc -- still that is a high pressure load for a .38 and close in fps to some .357 as was pointed out-- and yes i will try them-- I want a kimber 3'' in the future -- and the 150 ish gr hp sounds good at at that speed. I used to shoot a lot of 173 gr Keiths over 13.5 gr of 2400 -in a .38 special- do not remember the pressure but not normal .38 special load
My S&W 28 is what I will use for now and it will be ok with them. I shoot a lot of Remington 158 hp but they are maybe 900 fps will look later. thanks for the thread-

Thanks VERY much to Larry for doing the testing...they were right around where I thought they were going to be...

The same loads from Buffalo Bore are the loads I carry in a S&W 649, 60-1, 60-10, 67, Heavy Duty and a Colt Diamondback when out with them...

Bob

I’d be interested in the powder charge weight and appearance if anyone is willing to pull one down. No desire to duplicate, I just enjoy the exercise.

My report to ddixie884 with the info Silvercreek Farmer requested;

Finally got it done!,, Many personal difficulties the lat 8 months which is just the way life is. Then when I did start testing a couple weeks ago had technical problems with the test barrel/gauge. After a couple attempts to discover the problem I finally just removed the old gauge and installed a new one. That fixed the problem. Testing went well yesterday.

I first ran a "reference factory load" [Speer 158 lead SWC] through the test barrel with new gauge. That ammo (have several boxes all the same lot) Has proven to be quite uniform giving average psi's of 14,300 - 14,600 psi. The psi measured yesterday was 14,400 which was exactly the same psi as the old gauge had give with the last test a year+ ago. Thus all was well with the new gauge. I then ran 10 rounds of my standard 357 Magnum load through it. That load previously averaged 35,000 psi +/- and yesterday it measured 35,600 psi, well within the test to test variation of that load.

I then tested both of the Underwood factory rounds you had sent to me. Both proved to be excellent performers giving very low ES/SD for velocity an pressure. Accuracy at 50 yards was also excellent. I was using the test Contender (7.94" barrel) in a Ransom rest. Ambient temp was 75 degrees with a humidity of 15%.

The Underwood 158 Hardcast Keith +P load ran 1336 fps with ES/SD of 16/6 fps. The psi averaged 28,500 with an ES/SD of 0 !!!! yes, that was ZERO variation in pressure, all 10 pressures measured the same....thus the very low velocity ES/SD. Accuracy at 50 yards was a, just under, 2" group.

Cartridge specifications:
Starline 38 SPL +P cases
Unkown SP primer
5.5 gr of a very fine ball powder
161 gr PC'd SWC bullet, BHN measured on base and nose at 17-18, .3575 - .358 diameter
Cartridge OAL; 1.423"


The Underwood 158 LSWCHP load proved to be just as goo running 1314 fps with an ES/SD of 28/9 fps. The psi averaged 28,400 with an ES/SD of 200/100 psi. Accuracy at 50 yards was just over a 2" group.

Cartridge specifications:
Starline 38 SPL +P cases
Unkown SP primer
8.5 gr of a very fine ball powder
158 gr PC'd SWC bullet, BHN measured on base at 8, .356 diameter
Cartridge OAL; 1.431"

Note; the PC on both bullets was a dark blood red.

Larry...have you ever done the same two loads from Buffalo Bore?

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Originally Posted by RJM52

Larry...have you ever done the same two loads from Buffalo Bore?

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No, I have not tested any similar Buffalo Bore loads.

Bob, send him a 20rnd box of each and he will probably run you a 10rnd pressure test and 5 shot accuracy test and pull a rnd down for comparison. that gives a coupla rnds in case he slips. Larry came through here a coupla yrs ago and I sent some Speer factory 135 gdsbhps and some pet 135gr handloads home with him and he ran tests on them for me. I also sent some N340 and a 1K pack of LPP and SPP and some .38swcbb and .45 swcbb.

Thank goodness he has patience and likes to tinker with his pressure trace equipment.
It is so nice to really know what the pressure of your pet load really is. THANX Larry................

....already being arranged...

Bob

nice loads but not really saami spec .38+ ---I would not let them near a .38
unless i am missing something

I use a similarly performing load to achieve 1000 f/s with 158 gr. LSWCs from 2" snubby barrels. Shooting them is a somewhat self-limiting process. I only use this load in snubbies when I cannot carry something larger. The recoil, noise and muzzle blast generated also require that the shooter be very, VERY motivated to shoot someone one before unleashing such a round.

If S&W, Ruger and Taurus all have or have had 9mm J-frame size guns that run 30-35k psi why would one worry about 28k psi in a .38 Special in the exact same gun.

My two cylinder S&W 649-2 has digested several hundred +P+ .38 Specials, 9mms and .38 Supers and is still as tight as it was when I bought it...

Larry has ordered the same loads as tested above from Buffalo Bore so we will have an exact comparison of the two...

Bob

but still many may not know that -- and it is really still a +P+ +---all I have is a Model 28 so no problem

I’ve got a feeling that the Buffalo bores will be less pressure. More like 24,000 pounds per square inch and more akin to 38/44. Of course that is all JMHO – YMMV. Gary.

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Originally Posted by RJM52

If S&W, Ruger and Taurus all have or have had 9mm J-frame size guns that run 30-35k psi why would one worry about 28k psi in a .38 Special in the exact same gun.

My two cylinder S&W 649-2 has digested several hundred +P+ .38 Specials, 9mms and .38 Supers and is still as tight as it was when I bought it...

Larry has ordered the same loads as tested above from Buffalo Bore so we will have an exact comparison of the two...

Bob

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A 9x19mm chambered revolver in most cases uses the same length cylinder as the 38 spl. Means a very long free bore prior to hitting the forcing cone. Larry G was measuring these in a Thompson Contender. I wonder what the pressure is in a revolver for the 9x19 and the 38spl when loaded to similar velocities. Say a 115 grain bullet to 1100 fps with a 4 inch barrel.
I may be mistaken, but I thought pressure in a revolver maxs out when the bullet hits the forcing cone.

I would certainly not make it a high round count of BB plus P loads in a model 15 revolver.

Watching this, but I think there's a caveat that should be mentioned.

Many older revolvers weren't built for high pressure loads as there weren't many at the time in regular use. I don't know if folks were smarter then but I think not wanting to 'use up' a good firearm was something not taken lightly.

Yes J frames are still J frames and now can be had in various flavors way beyond what the first chief specials were meant to handle pressure wise. Metallurgy has changed and improved in most categories and what you would put in a cylinder now is far different from in the past. So 357, 9mm, 32 Fed mag J frames can take it as they were designed to do so.

FWIW I've run a few +P's in my 442 to see where they hit and for carry but run std level loads the rest of the time. If a heavier load is your thing and you limit it to minimal use and carry it probably will work ok without taking you or the firearm out of action.

The LEO community had +P+ loads available for field use but they also had other firearms that could be used if theirs acted up and trained armorers and parts to make sure they ran as intended. Some of you may but I don't!

There's lots of info here and elsewhere to allow you to make an informed decision.

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Originally Posted by 30calflash

Watching this, but I think there's a caveat that should be mentioned.

Many older revolvers weren't built for high pressure loads as there weren't many at the time in regular use. I don't know if folks were smarter then but I think not wanting to 'use up' a good firearm was something not taken lightly.

Yes J frames are still J frames and now can be had in various flavors way beyond what the first chief specials were meant to handle pressure wise. Metallurgy has changed and improved in most categories and what you would put in a cylinder now is far different from in the past. So 357, 9mm, 32 Fed mag J frames can take it as they were designed to do so.

FWIW I've run a few +P's in my 442 to see where they hit and for carry but run std level loads the rest of the time. If a heavier load is your thing and you limit it to minimal use and carry it probably will work ok without taking you or the firearm out of action.

The LEO community had +P+ loads available for field use but they also had other firearms that could be used if theirs acted up and trained armorers and parts to make sure they ran as intended. Some of you may but I don't!

There's lots of info here and elsewhere to allow you to make an informed decision.

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I will use +P+ 9mm in Gen 3 glocks for carry ammo in G26, G19, and G17. Although for the G26 that was originally a G33 I may opt out for standard or +P.

I conducted the pressure/velocity testing of the two Buffalo Bore loads discussed. Those two factory loads are BBs LSWHP +P load and BBs Heavy Outdoorsman +P load. I received a box of 20 rounds each. Thus, with 10 rounds used for the pressure test in the Contender test barrel (7.94") I had 10 rounds of each load left. I then shot a five shot velocity test in my S&W M19 with 2 1/2" barrel and my Ruger Security Six with a 6" barrel. Granted a 5 shot test isn't definitive by any means but it gives us a simple comparison to the recorded Contender velocity and the factory specified velocities. As usual, prior to the test of BB loads I shot a test of my "reference" Speer 158 standard 38 SPL SWC factory ammunition. The reference ammunition average was 100 psi close to the average which is well within test standards.

Cartridge specifications:

Buffalo Bore 158 LSWHP GC +P #20A/20 advertised velocity of 1,000 fps
Starline 38 SPL +P cases
Unkown SP primer
7.0 gr of a very fine ball powder
Bullet; 160 gr SWC HP GC'd lubed bullet, BHN measured on base after removing GC at 10, .358 diameter
Cartridge OAL; 1.453"

The Buffalo Bore 158 LSWCHP GC factory load proved to be excellent running 1340 fps with an ES/SD of 23/7 fps. The psi averaged 28,500 with an ES/SD of 0/0 psi. Yes, that is correct, every pressure measured 28,500 psi! Accuracy at 50 yards was a 1.85" group.
S&W M19 velocity was 1112 fps
Ruger SS velocity was 1255 fps

Cartridge specifications:

Buffalo Bore Heavy Outdoorsman +P w/Hard Cast Keith SWC
Starline 38 SPL +P cases
Unkown SP primer
6.0 gr of a small flake powder
157 gr Hard Cast SWC bullet with a bevel base, BHN measured 15 on nose and base, .358 diameter
Cartridge OAL; 1.440"

This load also proved to be very good with excellent uniform internals. The velocity ran 1314 fps with an ES/SD of 23/7. The pressure ran 28,400 with an ES and SD of 400/200 psi. Accuracy at 50 yards was a 2.05" group.
S&W M19 velocity was 1092 fps
Ruger SS velocity was 1218 fps.

Felt recoil in both revolvers was comparable to most current 158 gr 357 magnum loads. Not sure I'd care to shoot many in any revolver smaller than the S&W M19. I definitely would restrict their use to 357 magnum revolvers, just my opinion is all.

Thank you Mr. Gibson for sharing this information. Reminds me of an old saying. There ain't no free lunchs.

Thanks for this...really appreciate it...

As to use...I carry the HP load in both a S&W 649 and Colt 2.5" Diamondback when in town and the Outdoorsman load when in the boonies... For the number of these rounds that will go through these guns in my ownership lifetime, I have no concerns at all...

If one changes out ones carry ammo twice a year, that would be 20 rounds for a 5 shot revolver if one shot up the 5 in the gun and 5 backup rounds...a box a year...what's ones life worth....

Bob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJz3ba-l2sk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJYsc6PdEM

Check out the difference between the 9mm and the .38 Special.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXF5HOQz5WY

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Originally Posted by RJM52

Thanks for this...really appreciate it...

As to use...I carry the HP load in both a S&W 649 and Colt 2.5" Diamondback when in town and the Outdoorsman load when in the boonies... For the number of these rounds that will go through these guns in my ownership lifetime, I have no concerns at all...

If one changes out ones carry ammo twice a year, that would be 20 rounds for a 5 shot revolver if one shot up the 5 in the gun and 5 backup rounds...a box a year...what's ones life worth....

Bob

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My apologies for not making myself clearer, my concern was not about the revolvers not handling these loads. My concern is the recoil generated in the smaller framed revolvers that a S&W K frame such as the smaller J frame and Ruger LCRs. The concern is mostly the "pain" caused to the hand. The recoil wasn't bad in the S&W M19 but I've shot enough +P 38 loads in Chiefs and even the 357s in the LCRs to know I don't like them. But for carry and shooting only if need be.......

.....so, okay, I'm a wimp when it comes to shooting small heavy recoiling handguns......:drinks:

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Originally Posted by RJM52

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJz3ba-l2sk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJYsc6PdEM

Check out the difference between the 9mm and the .38 Special.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXF5HOQz5WY

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I was impressed with the performance of the BB 38 SPL LSWCHP +P in both the 4" and 2" revolvers. Penetration and expansion were excellent. Definitely a good factory round for +P rated 38 SPLs and 357 Magnums. I would expect similar performance from the Underwood version of that cartridge.

..."Larry the Wimp"...yea right...:-|

...I'm not real big on recoil either but simply a product of aging.... In a 20 oz 649 I don't find them that bad...a few to save my life would be tolerable...

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Originally Posted by ddixie884

I’ve got a feeling that the Buffalo bores will be less pressure. More like 24,000 pounds per square inch and more akin to 38/44. Of course that is all JMHO – YMMV. Gary.

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...my bet was 25K...guess we were both wrong...