Has anybody heard of this? I was just wondering how it works. An old friend of mine won some medals at the Sunshine State Games in this discipline with T/C contenders in 357 and 44 mag.
Thanks
Bob
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Has anybody heard of this? I was just wondering how it works. An old friend of mine won some medals at the Sunshine State Games in this discipline with T/C contenders in 357 and 44 mag.
Thanks
Bob
Never heard of it.
But the website makes it look...interesting. http://internationallawnsteelshooter...m/default.aspx
God bless folks with a sense of humor who like to shoot.
Thanks, I didn't come up with anything on the search. Actually sounds like fun. Rusty, the guy who won some of the medals is a friend from way back, although I haven't seen him in years. Hasn't changed much though.
Bob
Old thread, but I have discovered a group of these shooters here in Eastern Central Florida, Volusia County to be exact.
I have been looking to find a formal web site for this organization, and the previous link seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird.
The new and current site is linked in my tagline
The group of 6 or so shooters arrive on Tuesday mornings, and set up their array of assorted steel targets. They play for nickels, and even though I have watched them several times, I don't get a real sense for the rules. They seem to load only light loads, having to put their gun vertical, and bump it with their hand to jostle the powder down by the primer end in order to get enough power to barely knock down a target.
They have a verbal patter: "I am in the game, and have an animal target, #6" The rest report, "I see it"... Seems person keeps track of where they are during the game. There were nickels on the tables next to their lawn chairs. "LETS" (It's their way of keeping score)
Hoping that resurrecting this old thread will provide some path to the official rules for this GAME.
btw, I commented that I bet my .500 Magnum would do well (with massive knockdown power), but the reply was that the loads are so light (both powder and bullets) that the 500 didn't fare well during the testing. I encourage all to read this entire thread, beginning to end. Lots of details contained therein.
I have become a member of the ILSA group, and I do pretty well with LETS. Read on!
This sounded intreating so I looked around. Duke, I found this and it looks like its in your home state. I wish they would have something like that around here. Bu, then again it also sounds like when my family gets together to shoot skeet in the back yard at my folks house. http://www.flssa.org/pdf/mc/MC1209.pdf
Yes, well.............. I also looked around, and found that same document. As soon as I saw the name, I recognized it as one of the guys who plays the game weekly at my club.
The Roy Kramer that is mentioned in that pdf file, and the write up about the game, turns out to be THE GUY who invented the game, and one of the 6 or so guys who shoot the game every Tuesday AM at the Volusia County Gun and Hunt Club in New Smyrna Beach, FL.
I had the opportunity to visit with the shooters and Roy, at the start of my RSO shift at the club yesterday. He lives (for now) nearby, and after they packed up and left for lunch, he came back and brought me a printed copy of the RULES for the game. I would otherwise scan them, turn them into a pdf file, and host it here.
However, Roy asked me to hold off on that, and come and play the game with them next Wednesday AM. I already like the game, or at least the idea of it... super reduced loads, needs very soft bullets (range lead is near perfect), and great fun shooting at a myriad of targets.
The reason he's asked me to hold off until I play the game is because he started the ILSA in 1998, but because he did no promoting of it, it died from lack of members in August of 2013. He took the web site down. (Since revitalized!!!, link in my tagline) He tells me that there are three or four groups, mostly in the South, that are still playing the game. I'm asking him if he wants me to re-do the web site for him, do some simple marketing, and see what happens. I think he wants to see if I'm serious before he proceeds. BTW, Roy is one of the members here. I mentioned MY own on-line name, and that I am mostly known in the swaging area. He didn't offer up his own on-line name.
I'll invite him to join this discussion.
Duke, it sounds like good clean fun... I would very much be interested in hearing about your shoot.
The rules and a description of the targets also.
OK, now you got my handle, here is the game. Lawnsteel is played while reclined in a lawnchair lounger.
The first obvious queery is how often do players shoot themselves in the foot? With one notable exception, a single time in twenty plus years. A particularly stupid person did in fact shoot herself on three seperate and different occasions. Her range privileges have since been fully suspended with no options available for review. There have been a couple other shoes and a flip flop get a small groove installed. It would seem there is a cure for some of the stupid out there, gunshot.
Small caliber is limited to a .358"(or smaller) 160gr. projectile traveling less than 875 fps measured at 8 ft from the muzzle. Large caliber (.358" or larger) allows a 250gr., maximum weight, projectile traveling less than 850 fps measured at 8 ft from the muzzle. In matches and tournaments there is no fudge factor and limits are strictly enforced with disqualification. Open play is more forgiving but less tolerant.
There are sixty five steel targets set semi randomly by the shooters in the given game. Target set is accepted by the majority rule. All target distances are by rule, plus or minus one to ten yard/s from a prescribed distance. A linejudge is elected from within the game group to preside during the game. Selection of a target is governed by many factors. One of these conditions exists deep in the head of the individual player and escapes explanation. With few exceptions, target selection is the choice of the player. All four card suits are present as target shapes. Also there is a ***** target shape(QTS are 6"X12") commonly refferred to as a kwit and pronounced "QUIT". The qualifying targets are a seven and a half inch circle atop a stem four inches high with varing width dimensions set at (+/- 30 ft) 55 yards. Money/point targets (18 by rule with 19 accepted in Florida and California) are all silhouette animal presentations. To "cash" on an animal target, a player must earn an animal shot by successfully toppling a called arbitrary target once "in the game". Hit or miss, an animal shot only lives for a single attempt. In turn each player will announce the condition of their game and declare which target they will engage. With accepted acknowledgement and supervision, that player may bring their handgun into full battery and fire upon the intended target. One shot per player per turn. Games may only last for fifty minutes. Game is over when all animal targets are down. Game is over when all arbitrary targets are down and all animal shots are exhausted.
Target set can be a very critical part of Lawnsteel. Players can choose to increase challenge by turning targets to an angle greater or less than perpendicular to the shooting line. Another favorite challenge is to set targets in front of or behind other targets. After shooting this game over twenty years, I have been witness to some target sets that defy description with print.
Advertising Lawnsteel has never been my intent. This game is a gift I share. My grandson began playing this game when he was seven years old. The safety involved will allow nearly anyone to participate. Demand has placed me as teacher for shooting, reloading, casting and mentor. I accept this role as payment for guidance received in my youth. Yeah, I'm mr. Lawnsteel.
Roy
Greetings
When I first read the title I thought it was an easier way of saying the other steel critter shooting.
This sounds very informal and would certainly make for a pleasant morning or afternoon of relaxful shooting. Low noise, low recoil and certainly nothing to overstress a competitor.
Mike in Peru
Roy, let me know if you would like for me to scan and turn the Rules into a pdf so I could share those with the guys.
Orville
With Roy Kramer's permission, I have scanned and posted the OFFICIAL rules of the ILSA.
OFFICIAL RULES OF LAWNSTEEL <<< Here's the rules for download!
I got a chance to play three games with the guys last Wednesday, and quickly found out that my 4" Ruger GP100 in 38 special light loads doesn't have enough accuracy (the shooter was amazing!) to hit the steel targets at the official distance of 200 feet. I suffered through the first game that way, and then one of the guys allowed me to use his T/C Contender in 44 mag, with mouse fart loads behind a 210 grain cast boolit. Once I dialed his sights in for my eyes (had to adjust my aim point, he wouldn't let me mess with his sights.... hahaha), I was knocking them down, and regaining some nickels.
Next time I play, I will bring my S&W SS 44 mag with 6 3/8 barrel, and see how that runs. However, I am looking for a T/C Contender in 44 mag or 357 mag with 10" barrel. Iron sights.
Roy Kramer says that the "official organization" is currently down due to lack of membership. However, if we can get some excitement going for the game, I will re-do his web site for him.
Cool! A set of PDF patterns for the animal targets (or reference to IHMSA etc. standards) would be a welcome addition to the rules. I know a few folks I might be able to take some LETS from, er, introduce to this game (their common pronunciation when plinking with handguns and rifles being "we can't hit s#!+ with a handgun")... :)
The target(s), both in terms of the steel to be used, and the size, shape, and design, including bases, of the non-animal targets are covered in the set of rules. The information begins on Page 10 of the PDF file, and continues onto Page 11. I've re-read that area a few times, and while there's some leeway in terms of actual size or the targets and bases, the idea is very straightforward.
However, as you point out, the animal targets are not defined at all.
I'll see if I can get Roy to get me the specs for those. Or, maybe allow me to trace the outlines from his set. Some of the targets are rather big. The idea of the game is to knock the targets OVER, not just hit them. And, shot placement is critical to success. The big ram and the big pig require head shots, or shots high on the target. So far, I am lucky to just hit the damn things. LOL
The set of targets I shot at on that Wednesday were very well worn. Pock marked, and concave from being shot at a million times. One nice thing about this game is that the loads are all pretty light weight, and even mild steel will hold up well. I'm not sure if ASTM series 60 or better describes hot rolled or cold rolled. But, you don't have to invest in that very expensive class 500 rifle bullet proof steel.
If someone wants to create a set of drawings for these, I would be happy to host the file(s). I don't have sufficient drafting skills to create the drawings, however.
Got a call from Roy Kramer last night, and he is going to get me the specifics on the targets that aren't already documented elsewhere. I'll post that info as soon as I get it.
An old link which previously worked with this video was deleted by the previous creator of the video. So, I am re-providing my own videos.
Here they are:
https://youtu.be/cURlV9DKjqQ
https://youtu.be/ydvR92MJq0k
https://youtu.be/4-vJ9G29aW8
Here are the silhouettes for most of the animal targets:
Silhouette sizes:
Chicken Pig Turkey Ram
Width 13 in (33 cm) 22 in (56 cm) 19 in (48 cm) 32 in (81 cm)
Height 11 in (28 cm) 14 in (36 cm) 23 in (58 cm) 27 in (69 cm)
Roy advises that ILSA allows for +/- 1/2" from these.
And, the shapes:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ilhouettes.jpg
Courtesy: IHMSA and WikiPedia
And, actual target data for IHMSA targets direct from their site:
http://www.ihmsa.org/targets/
Roy tells me that there's also a "mouse" target (think Dizzy World, mickey and minnie.... you get the idea), and a Joe Corpsman target. Roy will get me images with dimensions of those.
neat , will download the rules , looks fun
I herd of these guys years ago , but like the other guy , thought it was a different name for the other steel shooting
Trust me............ It's entirely different than any other shooting that you or I have ever done. And, because of the very light loads, even young folks could safely shoot the steel.
Most shooting experiences are very serious. This game is much more like playing cribbage with your best friends. Lots of chatter on the shooting line, and great fun.
I attended last Wednesday's shoot as an observer (I had an elderly shooter buddy with me, and we had to leave early to make a plane in Daytona).
Made a video, which I have uploaded to Youtube:
http://youtu.be/cURlV9DKjqQ
Roy also sent me the additional image for the remaining targets, which I will upload as soon as I can.
Here are the additional targets:
Attachment 104557
Is anyone shooting this game, or have experience with it, in north central North Carolina? I'd go buy a lawn chair to be able to play this...
I've got a problem the lack of muzzle control, in this game. Especially with the guy in the pink crocs. I was waiting for him to add another hole in his crocs.
IHSMA rules on muzzle control:
4. Muzzle Control:
A) From the moment a handgun is placed on the firing line, until it is removed, the muzzle shall point safely down range.
B) At no time during the loading or firing stages shall competitors allow their handgun to point at any part of their anatomy or any other person.
C) While in the firing position, no part of the competitor's body may be in the "Danger Zone", defined as a 45-degree angle cone-shaped area extending from the muzzle in line with the bore.
Looks fun.
This game looks like it would be a hoot! The cribbage reference intrigued me! Would love to play with a short bbld SA revolver! Or even a 1911. Probably not do too well, but still have a ton of fun. Anyone shooting this anywhere in N AL/S Central TN?
Your concerns with muzzle control are well founded. However, the fellow in the pink Crocs is Roy Kramer, himself. It's merely a trick of the camera angle. I will assure you that Roy, and the other regulars of this game have never lost a foot digit while shooting. Their feet are at least a FOOT away (sorry, couldn't help myself) from the muzzle direction. Feet never get close to being in trouble.
So, pardon my poor work with the camera angles. The game is very safe.
BTW, I did see some guys set up and practice on Sunday afternoon, and they fired many short guns at these targets, including a 45 acp, and a S&W semi auto. Those didn't do all that well.
Not sure Roy would be happy with higher velocity jacketed bullets being tossed at his steel. I wasn't intrusive enough to see whether they were shooting cast or jacketed. The point is that they were shooting short barrels, and didn;t fare any better than when I shot my 4" GP 100 with light 38 special loads at 200 feet. Longer barrels are really needed to do this game justice.
Lawnsteel is now gaining popularity simply by being played in a more public venue. Although reading the rules may make Lawnsteel seem a bit involved, playing the game allows most folks to catch on in just a couple games. In the past two months our player inventory has doubled.
Selling Lawnsteel has never been nor will ever be my intention. I have played every nationally recognized gun GAME there is. Putting play back into the GAME, is what I am all about. Enlisting in the Marine Corps in 1969 at 17 years old (my mothers tears stained the document) taught me to appreciate playing games and knowing the difference.
WARNING!! Lawnsteel is addictive. BTW the first time is always free.
Dukeinflorida has passed the *** barrier and will soon move on to the next level of Lawnsteel play. Congratulations!
As to the concerns of safety, my credentials are extensive along with my experience. Cars and cell phones kill more people than anything in the USA. Within the general public, our military, law enforcement and politics there is no place which excludes stupid. Unfortunately Lawnsteel is not exempt from stupid either. Let's just have fun and try not to hurt anybody. I love this game!
Roy
If I can afford a vacation next year, I may have to try to get to a location where lawnsteel is played, just to be able to play a game or two. One box of rounds per game is affordable (and good incentive to get my reloading going again), if I could shoot at a range close to home. I'm pretty sure I could find a load for my .357 that meets the rules and that would give me hits fairly frequently at 60-70 yards. You folks won't mind if I wear my steel toe work boots to the range, will you?
You may be in luck! There is a Lawnsteel shooter with a small range located between Ashland and the casinos. I'm not familiar with the area so don't know if this is close to you. His range does not have a full Lawnsteel setup but he does practice and he knows Lawnsteel the game. If this is of interest, shoot me a pm and I'll try to hook you up.
When you come to Florida(everyone comes to Florida) it will be no problem to introduce you to Lawnsteel. With just a little bit of warning, all you will need the first time is a butt load of nickles. While we do want you to feel special, this invitation goes out to all my casting family. Cmon down here and experience a gun game where fun and laughter are part of the play. This is not a testosterone driven shooting sport, we have many female participants and welcome all the ladies. We are located between Disney and Daytona International speedway. It is a very easy location to get to off of four lane divided highways.
Roy
My buddy in North Carolina lives near Bryson city. We talked yesterday and he said he would welcome a fellow to his range to learn Lawnsteel. Just let me know.
Roy
Today, I got my first opportunity to be a Line Judge. Wow, what a LOT of responsibility. Had the best day ever (shooting wise), and the most fun also. Came home with fewer nickels than I went with, but it's not the nickels that measure the extent of fun.
I am working on re-establishing the formal web site for the game. I'll report progress on that as I can.
The thread started off with a reference to Rusty being a friend of Bozz330. Rusty played Lawn Steel with us last Sunday, and is still in good practice.
DukeInFlorida nice reporting. I think it looks like a bunch of fun. I can't imagine that there is much in the way of that up my way but I would be up for a game or two!
jeepyj
As I recall, the "casinos" are in Cherokee, extreme western end of North Carolina, which is not particularly close to me and well away from I-40 (it'd have to be a weekend trip with a campout or motel stay over one night, before or after; it's about seven-eight hours on the road), but still a bunch closer than Orlando area (which is a long full day's drive; I'm two hours from where I'd get onto I-95, from which it's twelve hours or so further to Orlando). OTOH, if that's between Asheville and Cherokee, it might be as little as four hours, which could be a day trip if the shooting starts late enough (no problem getting on the road by 6 AM, I'm up at 5:00 on weekdays). I could probably manage to get out to Cherokee area three or four times a year, Asheville more frequently, which isn't enough to get really proficient at anything (but I don't have to go that far to practice shooting, of course; and I have a friend whose family owns a piece of forest-enclosed land near Greensboro that we already shoot on and where we could easily set up a practice range for Lawnsteel -- long term, we'd like to play the game properly there; that's about forty minutes from my home).
I'd appreciate it if you could put me in touch with your friend, if only to get a more precise location and see when he's able to shoot. I've never shot steel at any range (other than a hundred yard gong at a range I used a couple times back in 1981), but I'm sure my Dan Wesson could handle it at 60-70 yards; I can hit a silhouette target pretty consistently at a hundred last I tried. I'll have to get my press set up and load some rounds (a little less "hot" than what I already have loaded, which are all near maximum loads) before I can shoot Lawnsteel, but that's a relatively minor task. A couple-three boxes of suitable rounds and a couple rolls of nickels should cover me for a day...
Edit: Okay, Google Maps shows Bryson City just 30-40 miles west of Asheville; it's about 3 1/2 hours without traffic. I could do that as a day trip, several times a year, with a little planning (gas money, lunch-drink cooler, ammunition, nickels, hat for sun protection -- not a big problem). I'll send you a PM...
Hey Illmakemine
You can wear whatever fashion choice suits. Our oldest player wears shorts and when shooting revolvers will put a piece of towel under the cylinder area to avoid burns and stains. This blast shield is reffered to as a leg kotex. It is seldom the shot maximum ever gets hit. Last Wednesday there were only four players and in four games I burnt 108 rounds. At state tournament in 2011 six players finished a game in 21 minutes firing 13 rounds each. Games are never the same. The level of play constantly changes with sometimes very subtle differences. Each game can be easily altered simply with a target or two placed in a completely different although legal position.
As Dukeinflorida pointed out, this game is unlike anything you have ever played. Without first hand experience it would be very difficult to understand what is being explained. Comparisons to other games is not unlike alligator, rattlesnake and armadillo tasting like chicken. They don't!
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imag...quote_icon.png[QUOTE] Originally Posted by Aunegl http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imag...post-right.png
I've got a problem the lack of muzzle control, in this game. Especially with the guy in the pink crocs. I was waiting for him to add another hole in his crocs.
IHSMA rules on muzzle control:
4. Muzzle Control:
A) From the moment a handgun is placed on the firing line, until it is removed, the muzzle shall point safely down range.
B) At no time during the loading or firing stages shall competitors allow their handgun to point at any part of their anatomy or any other person.
C) While in the firing position, no part of the competitor's body may be in the "Danger Zone", defined as a 45-degree angle cone-shaped area extending from the muzzle in line with the bore."
Aunegl, the rules for their game has changed radicaly over the years. During my reign it was legal for a full prone Creedmore firing position. Safety is the individual responsibility of every person involved in any shooting sport. Through my years of training law enforcement (police, sheriff, swat and fbi) I have come to be very aware of stupid bombs. Here is my proof.Attachment 110425Yes it is a gun in his ear, yes his finger is on the trigger, yes he is an instructor, yes he is still alive. Being a professional, the safety was on! Unlike so many gun games, Lawnsteel requires at least one observer for each shot taken. I challenge someone to find a gun range lacking the obvious bullet holes in places where there shouldn't be. My Lawnsteel facility was twenty one years old, hosted six years of state competition, held 56 sanctioned shoots per year, supported professional and informal training, along with thousands of impromptu games. Even with the 4 bullet holes that came from a stupid neighbor, there are only 8 on the entire facility of questionable procedure. Three are in the roof directly over a firing station and one in the floor. I personally witnessed each.
While I am up on the soapbox. My shooting facility was closed by a wealthy individual who was a competitor(state medalist), a range member, former employer and recent neighbor. As a neighbor he demanded a cease and desist of all range activities after purchasing contigous property. Not a new story but one all too familiar. Some of you know all too well what I'm talking about! So again, let's be safe and have some fun.
Roy
Gunarea, that was kind of a joke -- though folks who don't live with me, even if they know me pretty well, would likely have missed it. I own precisely two pairs of shoes (think of me as the anti-Imelda Marcos), one steel toe paratrooper style zip/lace boots subsidized by my employer, the other high top motorcycle/engineer boots I've had for many years (at $120 a pair where I used to buy them, cheapest shoes I've ever owned in terms of cost over their ten-plus year life, even when I rode a motorcycle daily). I also wear full length jeans or khakis, and long sleeve shirts (lots cheaper than sunscreen), even when it's hot out (even when I'm walking for exercise in 90 degrees and North Carolina humidity).
If I find I'm shooting Lawnsteel a lot, I'm likely to buy a piece of leather and make up a leg shield to keep the cylinder gap blast off my leg when resting on my knee or thigh, but for a start, I'll probably sit upright and hold with both hands.
This looks like fun, friendly but still competition.
Hey TCLouis
The comradery in Lawnsteel has no equal in sport shooting competitions. Our motto is, "I don't want to beat you on your worst day, I want to beat you on your best day". Urban rambos who engage in make believe life and death senarios will not enjoy this lighthearted play period. As to the level of marksmanship, Lawnsteel can challenge even the best. It is very common for the intended target to have less than 5 square inches available for a successful engagement. Bear in mind the target will be no less than 45 yards away and only "iron sights" are permitted. Out at 70 or so yards, a 38 special hit must be in the head to topple a turkey. During the concentration of a shot engagement it is completely legal and encouraged to point a finger only three inches away and exclaim "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you".
Everyone in my family plays this game(wife, children, nieces, nephews, in-laws, outlaws, grandchildren). From eight years old to 77 years old is the age spread we enjoy. When the eight year old grandson shot his first full blown Lawnsteel game, our senior player was 72 and shot it with him. That game had six players and the young boy made no protocol or safety fouls.
Now, please excuse me, it is time to drive to someone elses range and play some Lawnsteel.
Roy
And also note that the bullet weight and velocity limits for "small bore" make my .357 Magnum revolver, ballistically, nothing more than a .38 Special with a little more brass in the cartridge. In fact, it looks very much as if the ballistic limits for small bore were taken directly from common .38 Special load data (and not +P, either). I'll shoot the Magnum cartridges, because a) I don't like cleaning the carbon ring from the .38s out of the chamber, and b) reducing the bullet jump can't do any harm to the accuracy (which is still, surely, better than my own ability to see the target and hold the gun steady), but they won't do any more than a .38 Special would at the same range.
Alright now
While the load limits do look like standard 38 special, most all Lawnsteel shooters actually load to a lower velocity. In both my revolver and closed breech handguns, I load to a velocity of 810fps with a SD of 8fps. We have found a flat point round nose 160gr cast bullet to be most effective on steel. This combo makes for same point of impact from 45 to 70 yards. These rounds have been shown to be pinpoint accurate. Even the second most common round, 44, mostly in 44 mag handcannons. Is loaded to 44 Russian level.
Most of the revolvers perform about the same using either 38 special brass or 357 mag brass. The 38 does get slightly better gas mileage on powder. There is always one or two handguns which require special diets to keep up with the curve. T/C contenders can be difficult to feed. Just Saturday passed had me working on figuring out how to get yet another damm T/C contender to shoot. Twist rate comes into play at these low velocities and can have dramatic effects. Hard alloy does not obturate properly with the pressures lowered. We will get you some "Best Lube" so you can do some semi-extensive testing and then reconsider cleaning procedures.
My buddy up there in the hills will show you a good time and share all his Lawnsteel experience with you. Be advised he is considered a "Nickle Grubber". Keep us posted on your experience.
Roy
I've shot some low velocity wadcutters from my Dan Wesson (down to the classic 2.7 gr. Bullseye load under 148 grain wadcutter). I see the closest I can come to your described boolit in a Lee mold (which are the ones I can afford at present) is the 358-158-RF. They have a true round nose the same weight with significantly higher BC, seems it would hold its velocity better, but if the flat nose doesn't slide as much on an off-angle target surface it'll probably do a better job of actually knocking the target down.
If clip-on wheel weight is too hard, I can alloy in some stick-on; those ingots are barely harder than pure (I can also get pure lead wire and sheet, I think, at an employee discount where I work). At these velocities, I certainly wouldn't plan to shoot anything harder than wheel weight. I need to slug my bore and throats, and get a sizing die as well as a mold -- I'm a firm believer that bullet fit is more important than hard alloy, even when pushing things a bit. If the bullet fills the grooves, it doesn't have to be hard...