Frustrated cleaning problem - Stuck rod

So this past weekend, I went out and shot the .58 cal Ardessa muzzleloader. After the first shot, it was extremely difficult to load and I only fired a few. This led me to determine that I obviously needed to give it a really good cleaning.
I didn't have my cleaning supplies in yet, so I took my shotgun cleaning kit and ran a couple patches with Ballistol, followed by a few dry patches, then repeated. I figured that would get the bulk of the fouling out until my order came in from TOTW.


So, today my Creedmoor cleaning rod and jags came in, along with some 2.5" cleaning patches.
I screw on the .58 caliber jag and have trouble getting the first Ballistol soaked patch down the barrel. It finally goes and I run it down and pull it back up to find that the end of the jag has punched through the patch. Tried again with a new patch, same result.
So I decided to try the .54 caliber jag so it would have more room for the patch. I again ran a Ballistol soaked patch down the bore and back up. Then a dry patch. It's still in there. The patch and the jag. My brand new Creedmoor rod is stuck down the barrel of my rifle. It's stuck about 2-3 inches from the bottom. I gave it all I have (and I'm not a small guy) and can't budge it. I can push it back down to the bottom, but can't get it back out.
I've read a thread on the muzzleloading forum about the same topic, and I'll try some of the things suggested like tying the rod to a tree and pulling on the rifle. That will probably get it out.

But I'm beyond frustrated. From the first outing going terribly due to having to hammer the last ball down the bore to get it to seat, to now I have a damn rod stuck in the bore.
Maybe I should just stick to the shotgun cleaning rod with a little larger patch.

I went and bought some Scotchbrite pads to cut into squares and try to polish the bore since it was so hard to load, but if it's getting a patch stuck, how in the world is that gonna work?

We have a muzzleloader shop local. I may just pay him to give it a good thorough cleaning, as un-manly as that sounds.

Sorry for the whiny rant. I know these newbie problems aren't unique to me.

Over the years.
I have had a few ramrods get stuck in my barrels.
Mostly from using a shotgun brush that was too large for the bore , that I was trying to use to get out some stubborn fowling or rust.
Luck on my part.
I always use a ramrod that is threaded on both ends for jags or other items.
I make T Handles that thread on to the end of the rod.
I have one handle with 8/32 thread and one with 10/32 thread.
A couple of these T Handles tools are made from old plastic lawn mower pull string handles.
A couple are made from wood and some from Antlers.
Using the T Handles really helped get the ramrod out.
I have had to clamp the T Handle in a vise or clamp the barrel in a vise.
With the bronze shotgun brushes.
I had to spin the rod in a clockwise direction to make the brush spin smaller as I pulled on the ramrod.
It isn't just newbys that get ramrods stuck.
I have helped many experienced shooters get stuck ramrods out of the barrel.
But to be safe.
I always start to clean out barrels with a loose fitting patch first.
Then work up the size if needed.
One other thing.
Always make sure the metal ends on your ramrods have Cross Pins thru them and the rod to prevent the ramrod from pulling out of the ramrod tip.

If it loaded easy on the first shot, I would say it is fouling.
Perhaps use something like Windex to swab the bore between shots.
As far as the stuck rod, perhaps pour some Windex down the bore alongside the rod to soften the fouling to get the rod loose.
Then immediately clean it and oil it.
You don't want to let it stay fouled for long or you will have corrosion.

I think I would pull the breech plug and see whats going on.
Is this flint or cap. If its a cap lock you might try replacing the nipple with a grease zerk and a high pressure grease gun to push it out.
While the 2 1/2" patch may be big on the 58 jag the 54 is roughly 040 smaller so the patch should have plenty of room. the 54 jag and patch combo may keep the grease gun from building the needed pressure to push it out.
Go slow and watch whats going on. If you can pull the barrel and get it in a padded vise. to make it easier to get a straight pull.

Do the patches stick at the same point place. while the 58 jag being tight all the way may be a to thick patch the 54 jag shouldn't.
Next question is are these push jags or wrap jags. A push jag is sized to pierce and push the jag. A wrap jag as it sounds is meant to have a patch of a certain size wrapped around it.

Do not use wire brushes in a m/l unless it is really smaller than the bore by a couple of calibers

Check YouTube. There are several videos on using a grease gun to remove stuck items from the barrels of muzzle loaders. You can also try the compressed air method, also on YouTube.

I took an old piece of plywood and drilled a hole in it big enough to fit over the end of a ramrod to give extra leverage to help remove stuck ramrods.

I am a long time muzzleloader who has stuck a ramrod many times. My range rods have handles, so I can 'hook' them over something and pull on the rifle. Usually it is caused by the 'crude ring' that forms close to the breach? I have to remember to work my way thru it a little at a time, rather than punching all the way down in a single stroke. I have learned not to use a brass brush. At the range I use Bore Butter soaked patch when needed, and after done shooting for the day. Once at home, I use warm water and Bore Butter patches to clean. I don't use dry patches. Recently I have switched to a lube similar to BB, but includes bear grease. Some dislike BB, but it has worked for me pretty darn well for 35 years. This year I started using a windshield washer solution between strings at the range, seems to work well? I have a CO2 discharger, can't remember the last time I used it? hc18flyer

I use Bore Butter as a generic term, bought many brands over the years, very little actual TC brand.

Do your wiping with 10% Ballistol in water. It’s the water that dissolves the fouling that sticks cleaning patches and tears up boolits. Pure Ballistol is the last treatment after you’ve gotten all the crud out of the barrel for the day.

One of the expert muzzleloaders I used to hang out with had an inflexible rule: “Never push the rod down the bore without a damp patch;” the patch being dampened with a water/miracle juice of choice mixture. After firing he would run a damp patch back and forth a few times, pour in the powder, start the patched ball, ram it home with another damp patch on the rod, shoot and repeat. If he used a wad over the powder, that was seated with a rod pushing a damp patch ahead of it, too.

I must say I had a jolly old time sticking rods and enjoying random impacts on the target paper (if that) with my .32 muzzleloader until I started following his advice. On your current situation, I would fill the bore with water and do some judicious twisting (in the direction that tightens the brush on the rod) and wiggling until, hopefully, the rod can be pulled out. Sometimes it helps to have someone on the rod, you on the rifle butt and a tug-of-war between the two to get it out. Do it out in the open, and make sure the ground is soft.

Likely the nipple is threaded 1/4-28" and if so the old trick was to get a grease zerk fitting from the auto parts store and install it in the nippleflash hole. Then use a grease gun to pump grease into the bore and it will hydraulically push the stuck rod/jag loose. Once it moves you might pull it free, or keep pumping grease until it's all the way out.
Then clean the grease out by pushing a little smaller fitted jag down the barrel after you pull the zerk out, and then you can finish cleaning the last of the grease.

Here is my video using a grease gun to remove a stuck bullet. A stuck rod would come out the same way.

https://youtu.be/jCqp9odZISg?si=DnrG_yiKP74UB6lA

take out the nipple and dribble some gunpowder into the breach, replace the nipple and shoot it out. I've done it and it works. we're not talking 50 grs but maybe 4-5 grains.

Thanks a lot for the replies. A lot of valuable information in this thread for newbies.

Thankfully I have fixed the problem. I poured a good amount of Windex into the barrel and let it set for just a few minutes. I then pushed the ramrod gently to the bottom and it pulled right out, along with an outpouring of dirty liquid.
After that, I ran at least 10-15 patches with Ballistol down the barrel, followed by dry patches.

I've got it pretty clean now. It was very dirty, much more so than it should have been from firing 4 or 5 shots. No telling how dirty that thing was already.

Glad you are fixed. I was going to agree with post #11 shoot it out. An old gunsmith showed me how to do it with three grains of bullseye powder in the 60's.

First time i stuck a rod i was at the range. It was like panic mode. What do i do now , i have to get this rod out some how. I had a mix of murphy's oil soap hydrogen peroxide and something else mixed in with it, cant remember any way i poured some of that down the barrel let it sit for a minute and the rod came right out. Cleaned the gun and went back to shooting. Im sure strait water would have done the same thing. I learned after shooting a few rounds dont use a dry patch to swab the barrel.

What post #5 said. I tried a brush once in one of my muzzle loaders. I was lucky didn't think i was going to get it out i was afraid that the brush was going to break off but it finally came out. Never again. Water with a little dish soap and cotton patches from then on. God created water so we could clean our black powder rifles Right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lead chucker

I had a mix of murphy's oil soap hydrogen peroxide and something else mixed in with it, cant remember

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Alcohol is the third ingredient. I keep a bottle in my muzzleloader range box at all times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arkansas Paul

Thanks a lot for the replies. A lot of valuable information in this thread for newbies.

Thankfully I have fixed the problem. I poured a good amount of Windex into the barrel and let it set for just a few minutes. I then pushed the ramrod gently to the bottom and it pulled right out, along with an outpouring of dirty liquid.
After that, I ran at least 10-15 patches with Ballistol down the barrel, followed by dry patches.

I've got it pretty clean now. It was very dirty, much more so than it should have been from firing 4 or 5 shots. No telling how dirty that thing was already.

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That was the cause of your problem !!! Unless your Ray Charles you do not ever shoot or buy a gun with a dirty bore (you can tell) by looking down the bore ! Clean it befor you buy it and if a wall hanger you still clean it before loading it , how else do you see the
pitting /damage already done ?/Ed

The muzzleloading range where I shoot has a covered firing line. Bolted into the oak rafters of that roof are a couple of pieces of 2 inch angle iron that have 3/8 inch notches cut into them . This is so you can hook your ramrod handle in the notch and pull the gun straight down.
Plan B, if you stick a slug close to the muzzle , is a slide hammer, and a large wood screw, and a well mounted bench vise for the barrel.
Plan C happened to a friend, long ago. We had fired a bunch of blanks, and when he tried to clean the gun a week later, he stuck the ramrod. Wetting the mess down turned out to be a mistake. Everything swelled up. The man who built the rifle wound up removing the barrel and the breechplug, and failing to move anything, resorted to a torch. Got the barrel hot enough to char the wood ramrod and patch enough to loosen things up. He was surprised this did not harm the barrel.
Plans A and B depend on impact to work. Plan C is just short of replacing the barrel.

Several years ago a friend brought a cast iron cannon about 14" long that had a ramrod that he had broken off in it. Ask me about getting it out because he knew I had a 12" x 36" lathe. After looking it over decided drilling it out would require setting up a steady rest and require a lot of time. I decided to try air to blow it out and clamped it in my vice and proceeded to use an air nozzle with a rubber end that would seal in the touche hole. Using 125# of air pressure blew that broken ram rod out like a cannon shot. Grandson got a ball stuck in his muzzle loader rifle last fall and we put a grease zerk in the nipple hole and pumped it out, the threaded ball puller would not move it but the grease did the trick. Always more than one way to skin a cat!!

A standard grease gun will get to around 2000 psi pumping it. A high pressure grease gun will get around 3500 psi. Pushing a stuck ball or jag out with one is a slow process but it works. The standard grease guns piston is around 5/16" dia and about the same stroke the bigger bore of the muzzle loader means each pump may move the stuck ball an 1/8" or so the high pressure even less. The other draw back is when the object is out you have a bore full of grease.

Using compressed air works also but have it pointed in a safe direction.

I removed the nipple and dribbled some 3F inside. Put nipple back, capped and fired. Rod came out just fine, but, I never found it. The range was a bit 'swampy' and tall grass in front of the shooting stations. They had a raised walkway to get to the target berm. Good part is I always carry a 'range rod' so I could continue shooting (after swabbing the bore).

I tend to shoot 5 and clean when shooting PP bullets.