45-70-500 for the Trapdoor 1881 rifle.

Good evening gents. I have an 1881 model 1873 Trapdoor Springfield and I need a bullet mold matching the exact specifications as set out by Spencer Wolf in his book 'Loading cartridges for the original .45-70 Springfield rifle and carbine'. In the book Spencer lists three companies that manufacture the exact mold required for this project, Nei, Saeco and Rapine. The only problem is that the only company still producing this mold is Saeco and is offered through Redding. However Redding informed me that they do not conduct direct sales and I could special order it through 'Herron Security and sport' here in Aus. The problem here is they do not reply to any queries. If anyone has read the book you will see how exacting Spencer is with regard to the measurement of the bullet and shell to arrive at the accuracy he seems to achieve. I have attached a copy of the bullet I need below. I am hoping there is someone I have been unable to find in your great country that might make this mould.
Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
Attachment 269748

Try Cast bullet Engineering, he ships internationally! I use that exact bullet in my trapdoor.

https://www.castbulletengineering.co...moulds/458-cal

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Originally Posted by Bad *** Wallace

Try Cast bullet Engineering, he ships internationally! I use that exact bullet in my trapdoor.

https://www.castbulletengineering.co...moulds/458-cal

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he's in Qld mate ---might be just down the road!

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Originally Posted by BobInAus

Good evening gents. I have an 1881 model 1873 Trapdoor Springfield and I need a bullet mold matching the exact specifications as set out by Spencer Wolf in his book 'Loading cartridges for the original .45-70 Springfield rifle and carbine'. In the book Spencer lists three companies that manufacture the exact mold required for this project, Nei, Saeco and Rapine. The only problem is that the only company still producing this mold is Saeco and is offered through Redding. However Redding informed me that they do not conduct direct sales and I could special order it through 'Herron Security and sport' here in Aus. The problem here is they do not reply to any queries. If anyone has read the book you will see how exacting Spencer is with regard to the measurement of the bullet and shell to arrive at the accuracy he seems to achieve. I have attached a copy of the bullet I need below. I am hoping there is someone I have been unable to find in your great country that might make this mould.
Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated.
Attachment 269748

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Bob I have a couple mates that got molds from Tom at Accurate in the US - they very happy with the quality and quick turnaround but what about CBE ???

BobIn Aus

If you're replicating the M1884 ammunition then that bullet loaded as per Spence's instructions will do well. However, if you want the best accuracy with with "field ready" loads (as opposed to range loads not conducive to field carry) then I suggest slugging the bore of your rifle and getting a mould that will cast to .001 over groove diameter. I use that bullet from a Rapine mould that drops 16-1 alloyed bullets at .462. I shoots excellently in my M1884 action/barrel.

You might read; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-and-Equipment

Hey guys, thanks for the info. I am trying to duplicate the bullet that Spencer used in his book. The one from CBE I think is for the Martini Henry. The bullet base is too short as is the nose. I have spoken to Tom at Accurate several times and purchased a couple of molds from him - have been totally happy with his molds. He is easy to speak with and very obliging. When I sent him a copy of Spencers .45-70-500 Arsenal bullet, he told me that he was unable to produce that bullet as he cannot cut a bullet with a round nose and he pointed me in the direction of his 46-500D with a small meplat of .18. If I can't find a close copy of Spencers Arsenal bullet I might to go with Tom's 46-500D. Except for the meplat, the 46-500D is the same in all aspects as Spencers Arsenal bullet. I do like the round nose it has that traditional look, I don't know if the meplat will cause and problem with regard to accuracy. Attached is the 46-500D.Attachment 269826

You may find that, with the proper round-nosed top punch in your lubrisizer, the small flat on the boolit nose will disappear after sizing.

I have a Hoch nose-pour version of the Ideal 457125 500-gr Government boolit, which necessarily has a flat spot on the nose where the sprue cuts off. This is unnoticeable after sizing/lubing, and the boolit shoots fine.

The real Government boolit (IIRC) had a slightly dished base, which would require a more complicated mould to cast. All the moulds I’ve seen (including mine) cast the flat base.

Larry, thanks for the info. I see quite the expert on the trapdoor. That was some read. Looks like you are all over Spencer Wolf. I have only read page one and have to go back to pages 2 - 5. I was pressed for time yesterday and only signed in to see if I had any replies. I'll get back to the rest today. I watched 7 youtube videos by a bloke called 'Thekoba49' on preparing and shooting ammunition for the trapdoor. He was very exacting and possibly to the same degree as Spencer. If your interested search 'Thekoba49 Shooting 45-70 black powder ammo 1873 Trapdoor'

Bob

Bent Ramrod, looks like I might be going with the Accurate mold 46-500D with the meplat. The right Saeco mold wont be produced until next year sometime (unknown when) as they cant even their popular molds produced on time at the moment let alone a special order like the Saeco. When and if it does come it is going to cost $311.00. So I'm thinking I will go with the 46-500D. You mentioned that you used a proper round-nosed top punch to round out the meplat a bit and it shot fine. Can you tell me the name of the top punch you used? I might see if I can get my hands on one of those. Thanks for the info.
Bob

The Lyman top punch for the 457125 is #374.

Hey thanks for that.

I am totally confused, you have a trapdoor and by the posts of this thread, there is only one boolit that will work????? Over the years, I have accumulated a number of accurate molds for the 45/70.

There are many, that work and I defy anyone to use a special boolit (and only a special boolit) and not have success with a rifle over 100 years old using open sights

L-R Lyman Postell 520gn, CBE 500gn, Pedersoli 500gn Spire Point, Lyman (Mathews) 495gn Tapered spire point, 420gn Hensley & Gibbs

https://i.imgur.com/azoXSdK.jpg

i find his to be true with my 1/22 twist 45/70. out to 250 yards a 500 grain bullet is super accurate. after 250 yards not so much or at all. ive settled on a 425 grain bullets and it is very accurate at any range. your trapdoor is a 1/22 twist. if you shooting 250 yards or less then your in the money with the 500 grain bullet. i way out their you might want to go lighter. also the most important thing with a trapdoor is to slug the barrel and make your bullet the same size as your bore. some trapdoors are 460 or larger..

Bob, I doubt that you'll be disappointed with the 460-500D. It shoots quite well from both my Cimarron Highwall and my Pedersoli RB...I'm talking about 6"-8" iron-sight groups @ 300M off the bench. Btw my mold drops .461-.462 at 512-515 gr. from 30-1 alloy and I pan-lube (Emmert's) before running them through a .460 sizer.

Bill

is your rifles a 1/18 twist or a 1/22 twist? the trapdoor is a 1/22 twist. yours may be a 1/18 twist. that makes a big difference in what shoots in the gun.

I shoot several different cast bullets in my TD from 210 gr up to 500 gr. The 500 gr bullet was found to the more accurate bullet out to 1000 yards back in 1882 out of the TD with it's 22" twist. The 500 gr bullet still is today. I use a Rapine copy of the government 500 gr bullet, the 460-500, and find it more accurate than the 40-405 gr bullets.

thanks for that input.

Hey Gents, thanks for all the input. My TD is 1 /22 twist. Larry, I am unable to obtain a Rapine mold (out of service I believe). The Saeco is the next accurate copy of the arsenal bullet and is offered through Redding but that is unobtainable here in Aus. I ordered the 460 500D a couple of days back and will see how we go with 20-1 lead tin.

Bob C.

Bad *** Wallace, I do believe there are quite a number of bullets that work in the TD but my aim is to get the accuracy that Spence Wolf and the army of the day achieved with the armory bullet I described above. I also intend to compress 70gr of black powder into a pellet in our modern cases following Spence's directions. Anyway we will see. (looks like someone doesn't like the word ***)

Bob C.

My Lyman 457125 shoots very well in my 1884 TD. So far out to 600yds.
beltfed/arnie

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Originally Posted by BobInAus

Hey Gents, thanks for all the input. My TD is 1 /22 twist. Larry, I am unable to obtain a Rapine mold (out of service I believe). The Saeco is the next accurate copy of the arsenal bullet and is offered through Redding but that is unobtainable here in Aus. I ordered the 460 500D a couple of days back and will see how we go with 20-1 lead tin.

Bob C.

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Many find 20-1 alloy a good one. However, the arsenal did a considerable amount of testing of alloy composition among a lot of other things back in the 1880s before adopting the 500 gr bullet. They found an alloy of 16-1 was better. I tested both the 20-1 alloy and the 16-1 alloy some years back at 600 yards and found the 16-1 alloy was, indeed, the more accurate with full service level loads of 70 gr with the 500 gr bullet running 1250 fps +/-.

Unless I am mistaken, the goal of Spence Wolf was NOT to obtain best accuracy, but to replicate the militay loading for the TD - and the military accuracy standard. If you want to shoot your TD in competition, this may not be the best load...

that was a good reply.thanks

I had Tom at Accurate whip me up a 46-500D for my mint 1887 DOM 1884, based on my chamber casting. Over 63gr of 2F run thru a drop tube and seated to the top driving band it does this at 200 yards; 25:1 alloy. I'd have to get the load card for the rest of the specs, but it's good enough for me. I never could get the Lee hollow base to shoot as well as I'd like. Hope this helps?
Attachment 271319

My alloy of 9+1 COWW/Lino in the Lyman 458125/500gr RN works very well in my 1884 TD
Was a match winner
beltfed/arnie

A well fitted cast is the key to it all. Our 84 sprayed 400-500 grainers all about the 200 yard burn until we found NEI had a mold that would drop 20-1 at .463
Then that Buffington would really begin to shine.

Some wisdom here!