The ideal police bullet, Fackler, PDF
(Source: AR15 Ammo Forum FAQs, WOUND BALLISTICS)
Go figure. My impression was the venerable, knowledgeable guys around here greatly preferred 124gr +P over 147gr loads.
Thoughts?
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The ideal police bullet, Fackler, PDF
(Source: AR15 Ammo Forum FAQs, WOUND BALLISTICS)
Go figure. My impression was the venerable, knowledgeable guys around here greatly preferred 124gr +P over 147gr loads.
Thoughts?
I dont know of anyone who has shot someone with BOTH, so almost any body that says one is better than the other in a factual manner, is probably blowing hot air. Id venture my opinion that the difference is minute, and with propper shot placement they will both work, but I prefer 230g .45. Ive shot deer with 9mm, 40 and .45. In all cases, the bigger, heavier bullets put down deer much quicker than did higher velocity and lighter bullets.
Once again, I dont know for sure which is better, but thats my insignificant opinion. Thanks for listening.
I'm certainly venerable! Knowledgeable.......dunno about that. Opinionated? Oh, he!! yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannix
I'm not impressed with the overall performance of the 9mm Sub-Sonic 147 grain JHP loading that Fackler & Associates foisted upon the law enforcement community in the wake of the 1986 Miami FBI bank robbery shootout. These have clocked in the 925-950 FPS range through my pistols in OEM trim. FWIW, these loads are about a 20% down-load from the caliber's safe pressure capability. Maybe some lab rat in a white coat can be convinced that down-loading a cartridge carried in harm's way from its full potential makes it more effective at fight-stopping, but most folks in the real world find that counter-intuitive.
I am disallowed now from carrying the full-tilt 125 grain-class loads in my sidearms, so I carry a 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or a 357 Magnum. My wife carries Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dots in her SIG P-228. I guess that says a little something. These Speer loads--or loads like them--are much closer to 357 Magnum ballistics than to 38 Special. The subsonic 147s barely equal standard-pressure 38s.
That's the Reader's Digest version of my opinion on the 9mm sub-sonic question. I've raved pretty extensively on the politics and nonsense associated with its adoption in prior threads, so a search might unearth some of those rants.
Fackler doesn't get shot at for a living. I did, and many of those I trained did so as well. There are very few 9mm pistols being carried as primary sidearms in my old agency--LOTS of 40 S&W--and a good number of 45 ACP. Kind of a clue, that.
I was forced to use the 147 stuff. Based on my experience with car struck deer the 147 sub sonic is far less effective than the124+P and the 124+P was dismal compared to the 357 158 SP stuff we'd used for decades. The 147 subsonic basically duplicates the 38 Special RN stuff since it didn;t open reliably. Now this was all 15 years back. I know guys that shot BGs with the 147 and lived to tell about it. But a few anecdotal events aren't the same as dozens of examples with deer.
Dannix, did you look at the date on the bottom of those pdf pages?
Back in the era when that article was written, a friend recently out of Naval Special Warfare swore by 147gr 9mm Winchester. In the intervening years I knew several guys who had to shoot suspects with department issued Federal 9BPLE (115gr +P+) and it worked very well in all those cases.
In the end, I believe that hits and reliability are far more important than bullet weight and speed. If you think you need big bullets, carry a .45. If you think you need a lot of bullets, carry a 9mm or .40. If you want a lot of big bullets, get a G21.
I'll stick to my Kimber 45acp.I've shot 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 yards using Hornady 200 grain XTP's.I'm very happy with it and it will never be for sale.
I had thought that Fackler and the rest of the "Morgue Monsters" had passed into history along with the "Jello Junkies", but here he is again.
My Browning Hi-Power is loaded with 124 grains Remington Golden Saber ammo and if I do my part, they will do just fine.
Multiple hits from a suppressed MP9 type auto platform in an offensive situation? That's a little different than a street cop in a defensive situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geraldo
There are different generations of the 147 gr. loads and some do hit 1,000 fps. How they work I don't know, but I think they got a bad reputation early on.
The 9mm Subsonic development was an agenda-driven butt-covering sequence by FBI. THAT is what I distrust about the process that led to the ammunition adoption.
The terminal effects of the several shootings I've worked involving this ammunition did not give me warm, fuzzy feelings about its effectiveness. Recipients tend to require a large number of rounds to be installed to get the message, far more so than 40 S&W or 45 ACP, both of which are subjectively more difficult to control for the average shooter. Whatever that might mean in the terminal effects category.
Shot placement has much to do with any round's effectiveness. The variables from incident to incident are so ramified that trying to base a caliber decision on "street performance" is at best problematic. But where there's smoke, there could be fire......and the 9mm remains as controversial today as it was in the 1960s, at least in LEO firearms training discussions.
Back in the mid-90s I used to do a lot of pin shooting at a local club in Cincinnati. At this event they used to line up the pins 12" closer to the back of the table for the 9mm shooters, to make the 9mm "competitive." Well, my work with the 9mm at that time made it more competitive...
What I did was take the 147 gr. bevel base boolit and load it out to the same OAL as the 124 gr ball round (see pic). Because there was so much more exposed bearing surface, I had to take a .35 caliber throat reamer and lengthen the leade in my Beretta 92. After a few weeks of load development, I settled on a recipe that seated the 147 grainer over a bunch of AA #7 (I won't say how much), and the result was stunning, to say the least.
Loaded thusly, the 147 gr boolit leaves the 5" barrel of the Beretta at 1,210 fps. For those of you mathematically inclined, that translates to a power factor of 179, well in excess of the old Major PF of 175. Needless to say, it performed quite well on pins. So well, in fact, it wasn't long before the range officers quit giving me the 9mm pin placement.
That said, I tend to tune out the bunch that dismisses the 9mm as "inadequate." I'm quite fond of the cartridge, actually, and my current nightstand gun is still the Beretta 92. And if one were inclined to show up at the ranch sometime around 3AM without prior invitation, I'd be happy to share just about all the inadequate performance anyone could possibly want.
"Major 9" is what we called it in IPSC. Eventually banned it because too many guns were blown
up or beat to death in a few thousand rounds. Really destroys a HiPower soon. I shot with
major caliber with a compensated 1911 in .38 Super. My loads were safe, even in my unsupported
barrel (little portion of the brass case is unsupported by the chamber) and my competition load,
which I have fired about 70,000 out of that gun was a 148-155 gr LSWC at 1250 fps. Worked
fine, cases lasted forever - the powder was W571/HS7, sadly discontinued, I think.
This is basically a .357 mag equivalent, but there is no way that normal SAAMI pressures will
let you get 25% more velocity with the tiny 9mm case. Also, jacketed bullets will run slower
than boolits at the same pressures.
I carry a 9mm sometimes and I use the 124 Gold Dots. These open reliably in all the test
media (including mine, wet newsprint or phone books - same paper) and penetrate 12-14"
in ballistic gelatin, which seems enough.
That said - I carry 230 Gold Dots in a Commander 95% of the time. 9mm is OK, but depends
on the bullet opening up, and sometimes they don't. Slower velocity can't help the reliability
of expansion, so the 147gr 9mm seems pretty questionable.
Given Bret's actual experience with the load in deer, I'll continue to avoid it.
Bill
I was reluctant to give up the 45 ACP for personal defense clinging to my 1911 and Sig P220. The situation down here, these days on the Tex/Mex border is really, really scary. The killings, torture and inhumanity to thousands is just a stone's throw away. The drug thugs come in groups these days and not the lone guy prying open your window. Home invasion by three, four or five is more the order of the day (or night). I have come to believe that the number of rounds available could be very important.
I keep a Smith 59 and four loaded hicap mags in my car. I keep a Browning Hi-Power and four loaded mags beside my bed. I never go to the door without picking it up first. I can also shoot these pistol as well as I can any a good 22 target pistol. I will also admit that the arthritis in my hands is taking it's toll on my accuracy level with big bore pistols.
Where were some of you guys when we had page after page of .32 pocket pistol exagerating? It was almost like a .30 carbine when you loaded it up!
:popcorn:
Well for me the answer is "It Depends".
In a short barrel you lose velocity anyway. If I'm going to be at a certain velocity I might as well have weight. In the very short barrels- 4" and under- I carry the 147 Speer Gold Dot. In the longer barrels like my XD9 I carry 124 +P Gold Dots.
In the Power Factor game, 147 grains @ 1000 fps = PF147, and 124 grains @ 1200 fps = PF149 so what is really being lost? If the bullet is designed to function and expand at a given velocity the need for speed is diminished.
However my preference is a Sig 220 and 230-grain Ranger-T's.
The 9mm that I rely on is a Tanfoglio 38 Super. 19 rounds of Silver Tips should lay down enough fire for me to get to the 12 gage!
Using good loads the 32 is BETTER than is reputed to be. Using lousy ammo the 9mm is WORSE than it's reputed to be. Follow me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedmont
+1 on the HTPs. That is all I carry for "serious social encounters" in my SIG P220.Quote:
Originally Posted by 45r
Anybody along the border where no help is even remotely likely (pretty hard to see how
any help is going to happen along in time even in a crowded mall parking lot, actually) even
within hours would be well to keep the handgun on their person and a RIFLE with plenty
of ammo really close. Handguns are for the fight you did not have a clue was going to happen.
If you have a clue - make sure you have a rifle. Handguns, not matter which one (not talking
about the pocket rifles) are WAY less power than any ordinary rifle. Even a Win 94 in .30-30
would be great to have in a fight.
Stuff that is a trick shot with a pistol is a "gimme" with a rifle, and you have a lot more
horsepower. I never travel cross country without a rifle in the trunk.
Bill
Both of my vehicles have their own dedicated AR-15 and ample amounts of their favorite foods.
As LE marksmanship instructor for the Oregon BPST and an officer survival trainer I studied lots of officer related shooting of both officers and bad guys. I also studied lots of civial shootings. Most gunfights are with and ended by cartridges most of us "kowledgeable" gunfighters consider as inappropriate and ineffective minor calibers or ammuntion. Most knowledgeable and trained persons who carry major caliber handguns for defence learn the first rule; stay out of a gunfight to begin with.
I learned one thing in particular; any gun is better than no gun regardless of the ammuntion in it. Most often the miscreants depart at the sight of their opponants handgun. Yes there are a few cases where a miscreant continued to cause problems after being shot with or at by anything but that is very, very rare. Taking Fackler's reports into context he was only looking for the instances of one shot stops with solid hits. His report does not note those cases of stops with 2-3 or more hits or even with misses that caused the miscreant to about face and depart.
Where is it written you have to stop shooting after just one shot anyway? The general concenses is to keep shooting until aggression stops and I concur with that. When an OSP Trooper I carried an issue Colt Trooper .357 Magnum with a M94 30-30 or M500 12 ga in the patrol car. When with a city angency I carried a M15 S&W .38 Special for 8 years with 125 gr +P JHPs or the 150 gr lead HP +P and a .380 AMT as a back up loaded with Winchester Silvertips. I felt comfortable with that but would have prefered my .45 Colt Commander that I carried with Speer 200 gr FATs off duty. When I went to a SO I carried a Series 70 Colt M1911 with just that ammo and my M1A in my patrol Blazer. I still carried the AMT Backup in a belly band inside my shirt around my Second Chance vest. I never really felt "undergunned" with any of them.
Back in the day when the 147 gr 9mms were the rage I tried them and found the better ones were almost identical to the 150 gr .38 lead HP +P loads in velocity and terminal performance out of a Browning HP and a M59. Not all that bad if the bullet is put in the right place but nothing to write home about either. I still have an unopened box of the Black Talon 147s. However, my CZ 75 9mm is currently loaded with 115 gr XTPs at +P+ velocity for home protection duty.
Like Charger I have numerous loaded guns stashed around the house. Some years back my wife complained about it and I put most of them in the gun safe. However shortly after there were a couple burglaries and car prowls in the neighborhood so she told me to stash them around the house again and made sure I trained her in the use of each. My Pare Ordnance P14 loaded with FAT rounds is my primary protection handgun these days but it is supplemented by the CZ75, Colt Cobat Commander, Series 70 M1911 and the M19 around the hose along with 1 shotgun, an AR, the M1 Carbine and the M1A. Some might say I'm paranoid but I've investigated to many crimes against persons so I just consider it all "insurance":guntootsmiley:
I still most often carry the AMY Backup with me in my back pocket or in a fanny pack when making a quick trip to the store. But when I go "out" or on a trip to certain parts of town or areas the Colt Combat Commander goes along loaded with Speer 200 gr FATs over 7.5 gr Unique as a carry gun. Sometimes the M1 Carbine goes along too as it is a lot less obnoxious in the public view than an "assault" rifle. Loaded with good soft points it is very effective as a personal defense carbine. On longer trips from home the M1A always goes along many times acompanied by an AR as "extra" and the M1 Carbine for the wife (she packs a 2 1/2" M19 with 125 gr Winchestern magnum JHPs in it). The Combat Commander goes along as a carry gun and the P14 resides in the 5th wheel next to the bed as "in house" protection, many times with the M1 Carbine next to it.
However, when out hunting for a handgun I many times just have a .32 (S&WL or H&R Mag), sometime a .44 Magnum, a .357 Magnum, a .41 magnum or a .45 AR or Colt with me. Frankly I feel comfortable with all of them, some more than others but I'm not going to quiver in my boots in front of some miscreant just because I have the lowly .32 S&WL with me. The miscreant will eat 6 rounds very quickly in the 10X if necessary if I gotten stupid and set the rifle down I always carry. More than likely I'll use the rifle to deal with trouble. That will be the miscreants problem, not mine.
Larry Gibson
I've carried many different rounds over my long career. Beginning with the feeble 38 Special 158 gr lead RN to the current issue of 40 S&W with Federal 180 Hydra-shock. Nothing has proven to be as reliable as the current issue. We carried the sub-sonic 147 HP and it was very accurate. However the results of quite a few shootings were less than inspiring. This was with the old bullet technology and no expansion occurred with any bullet that did not strike bone. Several were thru and thru shots almost exactly like the old RN lead out of the 38's. That being said, new 147's with the current technology may be perfectly adequate. During the past almost no HP in anything but a 357 Magnum expanded reliably. So bigger in diameter was always better. When the 9mm Hydra-shock ammo became available the 124 +P+ was issued. It was soon proven to be better than anything we had up to that point,save for 357 Mag with 125 HP's. It actually had a better stop ratio than a 357 Magnum with 158 HP's. One of the best things about it was it's recoil reduction as compared to the 357's. When the 40's became available they were issued and we have had few if any complaints. The ammo we carry expands great and the small lead post in the middle looks just like the photo's in the advertisements. Sadly we have had more shootings in the last 20 yrs than the previous 200+ yrs combined. Our agency was formed in 1775. I believe with the modern pistol bullet technology the 147 HP very well could be a viable alternative. I just have not seen any studies and /or actual use to substantiate that thought. In the meantime my Kahr 9mm is loaded with 124 +P. Today we have some of the best choices that have ever been offered.
Mike
I'm not sure, but someone mentioned recoil reduction I think. I know on our job the 357 was just too much for the girly boys and midget girly girls they started hiring. The 9mm was a response, in part, to that. When the 9mm turned out to not work so hot, even with the 124+P stuff they went to the 45 GAP. The 40 S+W had a sharper recoil and the 45ACP...well, we couldn't very well not take the little tiny little hands of the little people into account, so the GAP won out. Far as I know it works pretty good. I would still be okay with my old faithful 681 and the 158 SP ammo we had back in the distant past.
Bret
tssk...tssk...that's not very PC you know....can't be hiring people becuase they meet all the qualifications required of a job.......have to hire them to be PC........back "in the day" we hired people who could not only handle there personal sidearm but other as well and handle themselves in a weaponless confrontation without a SWAT team as back up.
Larry Gibson
When I came on in 87 I was one one of the smaller guys at 5'10", the old timers were all from the era where you had to be at least 6 foot to apply. When I left I was above average height.
1) This article is from the late 80's
2) Dr Fackler says the lighter bullet didn't expand and suffered a through and through killing a brother officer.
3) He advocates the 147 gr 9mm bullet that has even more penetration.
You can't have it both ways. That 147 grainer would have killed that officer also. IMHO
With the advances in metallurgy and bullet technology I believe the 115 gr is still up for the challenge of stopping BG. Federal 9BP rocks.
ll
[QUOTE=Bret4207;1241608]I'm not sure, but someone mentioned recoil reduction I think. I know on our job the 357 was just too much for the girly boys and midget girly girls they started hiring. The 9mm was a response, in part, to that.
I started in 75. Very true. We had people that were literally unable to qualify with the 357 duty carry ammo we had in the late 1970's to the early 1980's. After that we carried the miserable 38 Special 110+p+ stuff, but that is an entirely different story. The S&W 4" 13's we carried had some horrific muzzle blast and recoil with the 357 125 HP's. We still had a lot of one handed, both strong and weak hand, qualification stages at that time. These people had a lot of one on one time with the range officers(and 38 Special ammo probably) until they qualified. It was only in 87, when we got the 9mm's, that two handed qualification at all stages was mandated by the state training commission. I think that by its self increased the number of people who were able to qualify with carry ammo. Even with that we had people that had to be individually "tutored" to meet minimum standards. My bet is that every agency has it's own group that gets "tutored" and that "group" very closely mirrors those in every agency.:wink: My time has come and gone but I still like to reminisce at times.
Mike
The saying at our Academy was, "Kid, you wanna wear the big hat, you gotta shoot the big gun." Ie- if you wanted to earn the Stetson, you had to be able to qualify. The 681 was bad enough for the girly boys, you should have seen them with the Ithaca 37's!
Larry, you mean they went on foot patrol alone, with no radio, and they handled whatever came their way? Oh, the horror...those guys were tough as nails.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Gibson
I knew one guy who was in a fight with a suspect and when another car rolled up with, shall we say, a new age officer, he got to his lapel mike and asked for "real" backup.Quote:
I know on our job the 357 was just too much for the girly boys and midget girly girls they started hiring.
I also saw a show a couple years ago about LA County SO's academy. I know that they're hiring fodder to work their jail system and that a lot of them won't ever get to a car, but honestly I'd rather work alone in the worst barrio than have to worry about my "partner" shooting me by accident.
The little "nazi" Swat wannabe cops we have now( dressed in black, pant legs tucked into boots, leather gloves with no fingers) finger their weapon at traffic stops. They could not shine the shoes of the officers we had in the day. We live in a low crime county of 25,00 folks. The county seat is the biggest town with like 8,500 people. Maybe 5 murders in the last 50 years, a couple unarmed bank robberies and a fellow showing "Mr. Happy" to chicks at the grocery store. The police could not catch him but one girl smashed him(Mr Happy) with a can of soup. He was easy to ID then. lol Anyhow like said these were big men, fair, honest but one was stupid to mess with them. I think these kids now days watch too many tv cop shows.
I shot with a young border patrol agent. He was fast getting his Sig out and on a 3 yard target but 10 yards was his max range he shot at. I can see where most of his encounters would be at short range but he really sucked. I got out the .44 and he would not shoot it.
Jay
A lot of those Nazi SWAT wannabes also have the attitude that if you're not a cop, you shouldn't have a gun.
That's way too simple of a statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy
There are a number of factors in play, just like there are with civilians. Cops that hated guns before being hired aren't going to fall in love with them when wearing a badge. People that came from a background where gun ownership was the norm aren't going to join the Brady Campaign. In urban areas where civilian gun ownership is restricted or prohibited, there will be a more hostile attitude toward civilian ownership.
Some of our MRT (SWAT) guys are the aloof/skinhead/bloused boots 24/7 types. Others are the nicest, most helpful and courteous guys you could imagine. They come in many types guys, just liek we do. The job kind of requires the type A personality I suppose. But just like with our Special Forces, Force Recon, Seals, Para-Rescue, etc. you tend to get "driven" people.
I can assure that were I still working I would much prefer to go to a bar/trailer park fight with the "Nazi" than the 102 lbs Prom Queen that won't get out of the car or the girly boy that is just dead weight.
Id bring my mother. She is an amazing shot with here sp101, and several others from her collection. On top of that, I know she can hit pretty dang hard. Ive been hit with alot of mean blugeoning type devices, but no one ever hurt me as bad as she did, and she just had a fly swatter!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret4207
She runs a sawmill singlehandedly, runs a Sthill 066, and , well the list goes on. She's also pretty and can cook good. Id fight any sized man, for the right reason, (and would loose most of the time) but Id never fight my mother, or a woman like her. She intemidates the poo out of me.
Then again, Im a wimp of the highest order. Ive got two little readheaded girls, 2 and 3.5 years old, that bring my to my knees on a daily basis.
Yeah, RIGHT! :) I'll bet they love and look up to their Dad.Quote:
Originally Posted by 82nd airborne
One of my last full time jobs was working with LA Co.SO Traffic Officiers doing paperwork and traffic control for parades and the like. Worked with the East L.A. Traffic Sgt. soon after a shooting where Deputies shot deputies. His comments about hiring unqualified people and sending them out in the field poorly trained and supervised would register with several LEOs here. Neighbor got transfered from L.A. Co. Police to L.A.S.D. (police disbanded) ventured the opinion that recent academy graduated are trained to only work the jails, not work on streets. New hires spend 3-5 years in major jails dealing with not nice people. They are trained to deal with the inmates but they are not someone you would want to socialize with for very long. Out of the jails and with time in reasonable areas they eventually learn to deal with citizens in a reasonable manner.