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Hello,
I'm new to this site, and I'm interested if anyone has tried the Lyman 311410 in the M1 Carbine? Was thinking that since it is a heavier bullet (130gr), it should function well in the carbine at lower velocities (say 1600 - 1700fps). Anybody?
Don
i have used the 311410 in the mi carbine worked great i dont remember the charge but 2400 was the powder you have to watch the case length as it head spaces on the mouth
of the case no danger but long cases willcause the bolt to not seat so wont fire
I use 10.5 gr 2400 with good results. Groups tend to open up above 1600fps. Some guys reported poor results with the 311410 but I've not had a problem.
Guess it depends on what "good" is. I tried 311410 in several M1 Carbines over the years. I got 5-6" groups at best using 2400, 4227 and H110 in the 1600 fps range. With 311359 or the Lyman 32 H&R 105 gr SWC I got 2-3" groups with the same powders but at 1850-1950 fps.
Larry Gibson
BTW; I don't have a 311410 mould anymore. The reason is obvious.
Haven't had any luck with the 311410 either but that don't mean you might not get lucky. The combination of correct OAL to fit the magazine and distance off the rifling or whatever it takes just wasn't there. The 311359 is a real accurate one in my carbine.
Thanks for your input, guys. I elected to go with the LEE 120gr Group buy mold. Now, to figure out what powder to use.
Don
With full throttle loads in the M1 Carbine using GC'd cast bullets of 105 - 124 gr weight I've found H110 to be a tried and true powder for the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR
Larry Gibson
Work up to 12.5 gr. H-110 or Win 296 with that 120 gr. Lee as long as you see no pressure signs. I picked up a gas nut and a wrench but really only had to check it every once in awhile as it tended to work loose until I got the wrench and tightened it down real good. I have had a .22 auto get dirtied up worse in 500 rounds than that thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR
I have a lee (out of production) 309-130 which is a little longer than the 120 and has a crimp grove. I use 12gr of 2400 and seat it so the crimp grove is exposed and the top lube grove is just covered. I've gotten 25yd one hole groups you could cover with a dime. the 311410 shoots about a 1" group at 25yds. I would like to find a way to push it to 2000fps to see if it would improve. Anyone know how this could be done?
Larry,Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Gibson
These bullets are not GC's, so I will be deliberately keeping the velocity down. I've got some Hercules 2400 (I guess that gives away it's age) that I will be trying. Of course I am considering buying some H110 or W296, but am also considering IMR4227 which interests me because it is a single-base extruded powder.
Don
I have gotten good results with the group buy boolit and 13-13.5 grs. H110. I bought 8 pounds of the WC820 from bartlett and haven't had as good success. I shoots fine but groups are not as good with same charge. I will have to play with it a little more.
More on the debate of the accuracy of the 311410 in the 30carbine. My first experience with this bullet gave really bad results (12 groups at 100yds.) after several years of not using it I decided to try it again. None of my loads gave better than 10-12 groups. I then took a closer look at the mould and found it was casting oval bullets of .306 x .312 dia, I consulted Lyman about this and after a few emails they sent me a new mould which casts perfect although slightly small (,309) bullets. The new mould gave me satisfactory results (4-6) using 10.5gr 2400, a load listed in one of the older Lyman manuals as an accuracy load. I decided to try several other moulds and bought a new Lee 309-112RF (soupcan) and off of E-Bay an out of production Lee 309-130-R2. With these I ran the following tests. Using Herc2400, mixed cases and bullets that were visually inspected but not weighed, sized to .308 and lubed with the NRA Alox lube. Fired at 25yds from a rest on a horizontal 2x4 with GI sights. (The soupcan wont feed unless sized down to .308)
I felt that a higher velocity might be more stable so I machined down the base of some of the 311410 to accept a gas check. I also wanted to try a heavier bullet and included the Lyman 311414 150gr in my test. (The 311414 gives me 2 100yd groups with 20gr 2400 in my 30-06)
All below fired at 25yds
With 8gr 2400 and the 311414 group was about 10 with all keyhole prints.
With 10.5gr 2400 the 311410 Plain Base gave a 1.7 inch group.
(12.0gr is Max in Lyman manual and over Max in Lee manual)
With 12gr 2400 311410 plane base 0.8 group.
With 12gr 2400 and 311410 with the added gas check 0.7 group.
With 11.8gr 2400 and Lee 309-112 soupcan 0.6 group
With 11.8gr 2400 and the Lee 309-130 0.3 group.
These groups would most likely improve with a good rest and a scope, but showed me that you need near 1800 fps to get decent accuracy in my carbine. I did a lot of carbine shooting with GI ammo in the service and found that they all shoot a little different. We learned which serial numbers would give the best accuracy and always tried to get one of them when competing.
My goal is to shoot a 100yd 1" group with the GI sights and cast boolets.
I have notes that I used that with 8.5 gr. BlueDot with great results but no actual group sizes. I got that load from the RCBS cast bullet book and also in an article posted by beagle in Member Stories. It's a good read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will
Will
You will find that, for the most part, if you are looking for accuracy at 100 yards testing at 25 yards is a waste of time. Most M1 carbines have 20" twists while some had 16" twists. Stabilizing the heavier bullets is an obvious issue. Some times that instability doesn't show at 25 yards.
As to your goal of 1" Group with GI sights and cast bullets; best I ever did back when my eyes were good and I could shoot really well with GI sights I shat a few 1" 3 shot groups. Five shots would be under 2" and I shot many 15 shot (mag capacity) groups of 2.5". That was with the best M1 Carbine I have that is correctly bedded. Keep trying as you might get there though it is a lofty goal.
Larry Gibson
My IBM M1 Carbine has 0.3095 grove dia. found by slagging.
When MV exceed 1200 fps or above that differntry turn to keyhole at 25 yard by Lyman 311410 (130gr, RN cast by W-W) even lube & size to 0.311 (mold drop max size)
I have to reduce MV around 1100 fps range with first burning powder, such as WW231, Hercules Bullseye. Ideal charge 3.8gr to 4.2gr, both would not be autoloading function at all.
But I found possible to group, 3"@50 yard, 12"@ 100 yard most likly any M1 Carbine, both are use Military open sight shoot from bench rest position.
I feel that Lyman 311410 did not have enough bearing surface design for .30 caliber, overall boolit length vs weight ratio is "Unbalanced Boolit".
I'm also try machined tail of 311410 & add GC (for 32 caliber GC), I was try to increase bearing serface as much as I could in this test.
( size to 0.312 & powder charge of WW231 5.9Gr; MV 1355 fps, test at 100 yard end up turn to bad enough as above. (almost nothing hit 2'x2' target @ 100 yard)
Below 1200 fps on PB will make 10" to 12" grouping pattern.
Woundering, if I use light weight cast boolit with proper sized GC (my case will be size to 0.311 to 0.312) for 1-20 twist M1 Carbine, grouping should be improve.
I got discontinue Lyman 311419GC (for 32-20) it is 88gr (91gr with GC), which lighter than 110 gr military FMJ boolit. (Hopefully, 1-20 twist barrel could handle even I use cast boolit)
Now, my question to all experienced folks;
1) Should I use mid burn rate powder or first burn in this ?
2) Keep MV around 1800 fps or stay bellow 1300 fps with this 88-91gr w-w cast boolit?
I was try WW296 12gr with Lyman 311410 (.308 sized) also in early this year (MV 1800 fps)
Yes, under sized boolit was make horrorble result @ 25 yeard when I sight in progress.
I may need to get magnum small rifle primer for WW296, if I decide to under 12gr of charge.
that a reason I did not use WW296 at this point.
Cas t boolit for military rifle, C.E. Harris http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425 shown ideal use fast burn rate powder for military rifle with cast boolit.
Thanks folks.
Shiori Okamoto
Hi Shiori,
Try this link for an article written by a guy on this site.
http://www.castpics.net/memberarticl...%20Carbine.htm
Shiori357
I felt that a higher velocity might be more stable so I machined down the base of some of the 311410 to accept a gas check. I also wanted to try a heavier bullet and included the Lyman 311414 150gr in my test. (The 311414 gives me 2” 100yd groups with 20gr 2400 in my 30-06)
The GC on 311410 may help considerably with accuracy. However, some 311410 bullets cast to long and heavy a bullet for proper stabilization in the twist rate of M1 Carbine barrels. For that reason the 150 gr 311414s won't work either. You have a much faster 10" twist in your '06 which is why that bullet shoots well in it, it gets properly stabilized.
Better cast bullets for the .30 Carbine are any GC'd 100 to 120 gr bullets. Your 311419GC should also work well with proper loads. I also suggest sizing to .311 if that size bullet will chamber when loaded. I find that most .30 carbines will take .309/.310 sized bullets and only occasionally one will take .311 sized bullets. With your borrel groove size at a minimum use .309 sized cast bullets.
Now, my question to all experienced folks;
1) Should I use mid burn rate powder or first burn in this ?
I would recommend the usual .30 Carbine powders for that 311419 bullet such as; 2400, 4227, H110 and AL-8. H110 and 296 are basicly the same and a magnum primer is not needed in the small .30 Carbine case. If the 311419 is cast of WW alloy + 2% tin and water quenched, a good GC attached correctly, a good lube such as Javelina used and sized to .310 or .311 I see no reason that 2 - 3 moa at 100 yards can not be had if your M1 is in good condition and bedded tightly. I do that with 16 gr of H110 in several of my M1 Carbines using a 105 gr 313631GC SWC with several other GC'd moulds of proper weight with different charges of H110.
2) Keep MV around 1800 fps or stay bellow 1300 fps with this 88-91gr w-w cast boolit?
As mentioned, I see no reason that bullet can not be used upwards of 1800 - 2000 fps in the .30 carbine. It could no doubt be used at a higher velocity but the gas port pressure becomes a problem. I have seen (did one myself) the gas nuts blown out by shooting to many loads with too high of a gas port pressure. Besides, 1800 - 2000 fps will be plenty for that small bullet in that small case.
I was try WW296 12gr with Lyman 311410 (.308 sized) also in early this year (MV 1800 fps)
Yes, under sized boolit was make horrorble result @ 25 yeard when I sight in progress.Even with a proper fit most PB'd 311410s will not shoot very well at 1800 fps, at least not what I consider "very well".
Larry Gibson
Newtire, thanks for reply my post, I went through that website already.
I was try to get Lyman 311316, 311576 and 313631 and did not sucess, end up got 311419.
However, point of discussion of my last post been 1-20 twist.
Did not much effect weight of bullet, shape of bullet that I finaly found.
You are welcome ShioriQuote:
Originally Posted by Shiori357
Mr. Gibson.
Appliciate your reply on my last post.
I saw many of your post on other article in this forum and all of them are respectfull, because those are ture experienced base posts.
Like you said, I wish try MV 1800fps range with WW296 which only I have mid burn rate powder sofar.
My concern with 311419 is, not enough lube groove available on this boolit.
I could fill up lube on shallow gap just above GC seat on, not at crimp groove, because of OAL.
When I seat deeper to the case, it is possible to use crimp groove turn into lube.
But I got feeding problem, if boolit seat deep enough to cover this groove.
Lyman 311316 will be perfect length for .30 M1 Carbine which I have no chance to get mold same as 313631 and 311576 today.
I'm hegitate to spend extra buck for RCBS 30-115-SP, that reason of mold drop off dia.
Would not be fit on my purpose. (If they sure to drop off at .312 or greater, I'm jump on this mold, but most likly .311 is max which I guess. )
Other custom molds are found in my purpose, but I'm not going to use this Carbine for super match or serious hunting, so no reason to spend double price to get those either.
I will follow your suggestion as size to 0.311, because 0.312 would not effect at all for true sizing purpose, only work for GC seating with my mold.
However, we found most of reason why .30 M1 Carbine could not handle as other .30 caliber US rifles accuracy at 100yard range.
60% of reason ; 1-20 twist.
15% of reason ; Not available right boolit for .30 Carbine (95 to 120 GR Cast mold)
10% of reason ; Mil spec sight.
10% of reason ; poor bedding & receiver fitting.
5% of reason ; poor trigger / shooters skil.
I will keep going, this project is long term as you did ; Larry.
Shiori
I have no scientific data to share, but I do have some experience.
I have an Inland Carbine which I got as a beardless youth in about 1963 through the DCM. I have shot many thousands of rounds through it in that time, most being Cast Boolits. My current load is the now discontinued Lee C 309-130-R bullet cast of Wheelweight metal. I shoot it tumble lubed with Lee Liquid Alox, as cast, unchecked, with a load of 16 gr. of 2400 and Wolf small rifle primers. It feeds and functions totally reliably and gives me acceptable accuracy, about 6"-7" at 100 yards. That means to me, that I am putting bullets within 3 1/2" of point of aim at 100 yards. That old carbine is as comfy to me as my favorite flannel shirt and is responsible for many hundreds of happy hours and several wonderful tasting Western Washington Coast Blacktail deer. All with that Lee boolit and 16 grains of 2400.
When I began reading gun magazines, and shooting centerfire rifles in the late fifties and early 60's, any rifle that would consistantly group 6" at a hundred yards was a "keeper" and worth writing about. Since the advent of internet forums, it seems that any beat up old mustered out military pot-iron that doesn't give consistent 1" groups at 100 yards with seventy year old milsurp ammo that has been stored in a swamp, is scrap iron. What happened?
Gerry N.
For my recently acquired Inland M1 carbine i started with 13.0 grains of H4227. When that disappeared i switched to 12.0 to 12.5 grains of 2400. I use a group buy 120 grain rnfp cast of wheelweight/linotype alloy sized to .312.
I am happy with the results when shooting offhand at a railroad plate hanging at 200 yards. Not all hits but i attribute that to the shooter - me!