Martini Cadet Gunsmith?

I have a BSA Martini Cadet action I inherited from my brother (RIP). I had a new barrel made by a 'smith who said he had worked on such actions, and had the extractor modified to fit the .222 Remington Rimmed cartridge.

Using light loads (at least according to my reloading manuals), the cases became harder and harder to extract, such that by the third firing, I had to tap the action open with a plastic hammer. Not good.

Judging from the primers, my thought is that the firing pin hole is too large and the primers are extruding back into it. (Why it takes three shots to get really bad I have no idea.)

Apparently, bushing the firing pin hole and turning down the tip of the firing pin was a common practice to deal with pressures higher than that of the .310 Cadet cartridge, but also apparently, the job required an experienced 'smith. (I talked to one nationally-known 'smith who does a lot of this type work on bolt actions and he said "never again" and threw holy water and garlic cloves at me through the telephone line. Not a happy camper.)

So, are there any 'smiths left who have the experience to do this job? I hate to have the rifle just sitting in the safe.

Thank you,
Richard

Doesent sound that bad a little lathe knowledge is all that is needed. I imagine. Any one who is proficient with a lathe and can pin the bushing on here could do it for ya

PM Waksupi - Ric will likely know anyone in your area who is competent.

More like a Mill Job, this is a falling block, not a bolt gun. You may be able to fixture it but I wouldn't count on it easily.
The fact that it takes three firings is strange, if it was a firing pin/primer flow issue I would think it would be a problem from the first firing. Take a pick of the bolt face both with and without the firing pin protruding. Also so pics of fired brass, first firing and third firing. If its a bolt face issue Id expect to see smearing on the brass and primer.
If it is a primer hole issue, have you tried magnum or military primers? they have a thicker cup.

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Keep in mind that reducing the FP tip diameter involves a couple of different procedures:

1) The bolt face needs to be bored out to accept a plug, then the plug drilled to the size of the "new" smaller FP tip.

2) Then, either the original FP tip can be reduced in diameter, or a new FP made with the proper/new/reduced dimensions.

Ergo, the costs of the procedures will be reflected in the final cost.

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Originally Posted by Wayne Smith

PM Waksupi - Ric will likely know anyone in your area who is competent.

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Thank you. Doesn't even need to be in my area.

Richard

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Originally Posted by Ozark mike

Doesent sound that bad a little lathe knowledge is all that is needed. I imagine. Any one who is proficient with a lathe and can pin the bushing on here could do it for ya

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That's the way it originally seemed to me. Apparently something else is involved.

Richard

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Originally Posted by akajun

More like a Mill Job, this is a falling block, not a bolt gun. You may be able to fixture it but I wouldn't count on it easily.
The fact that it takes three firings is strange, if it was a firing pin/primer flow issue I would think it would be a problem from the first firing. Take a pick of the bolt face both with and without the firing pin protruding. Also so pics of fired brass, first firing and third firing. If its a bolt face issue Id expect to see smearing on the brass and primer.
If it is a primer hole issue, have you tried magnum or military primers? they have a thicker cup.

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I'll have to see if I have any brass left unprocessed. I haven't fired the rifle for several years since there doesn't seem to be an obvious answer to the problem.

Richard

Must have been many thousands of them done here .....might be more economic for you to see if you could buy a bushed block from Australia.....Your assessment is spot on,if the primer extrudes ,the metal has the be sheared to open the block............this is possibly the biggest fault of the Martini Cadet ......you cant recock the mechanism and fire a second time ,to bash in the primer.......here,there is a local crowd ,still trading who did very many back in the day.....Kingston Brothers.

I also think Akajun had good points.....there will be evidence of a bright sheared ring around the pin dent in the primer........These guns dont have very strong extraction,and cannot cope with sticky cases,or any kind of pressure effect on the brass.......the action is super strong ,but unsuited to larger cases ...which the 222R is.......In fact I know my 222R was rechambered from 218 Bee,and the Bee was easy extraction ,the 222 sticks very easily.........Incidentally ,a further problem is you cant just bang the block down .....the locking arms must be disengaged too ,simultaneously ......you need three hands ......I have put my big toe thru the lever ,while using a brass punch and lead hammer .If the lever isnt pulled down ,there is no way the action will open............Question.....have you got a rough /grooved/ .scored / Improved ?/chamber?

Basically you frill the front of the breech block for a scope ring or scope base screw. 6x40 tpi is normally used. Anneal the front of the breech block and tin the threaded end of the screw. play your heat source on the threaded end od the screw as you screw it into the now threaded firing pinhole.Use a cut off wheel on a dremel to remove the head of the screw. May have to put the breech block in the lathe to do the final trimming of this screw. From then on all you have to do is reduce the diameter of the firing pin point. And the tip of the firing pin should be hemispherical. Polish the tip of the firing pin and you should be good to go.Actually the diameter can also be reduced if you have an old electric drill which you will clamp in the vice having the firing pin securely in the chuck. with some small files and sandpaper you should be able to reduce the firing pin diameter to fit the bushing now in the breechblock. Parts for these little martini's can be hard to find would be nice to have a spare firing pin on hand in case you reduce the diameter too much.Almost forgot you have to drill and tap the front of the firing pin hole for the threads of the screw you plan on using. Cartridges like the 38 special,25-20,32-20 do not need to have their blocks threaded for a bushing. But cartridges like the 357 magnum do. Frank

Tricky part of the work is no other part of the block is either parallel or square to the face of the block......if you do a few of these blocks ,you make a fixture to hold the block so the face is square to the machine spindle ......For drilling the new hole ,the firing pin axis is not square to the block face either.......however ,all thats needed here is drill bushing to replace the firing pin,with a hole thru it to guide a drill bit.....The block is also hardened all over,so dont go heating the pivot end and locking flats ,if silver soldering..........if I did another ,I would grind a small divot at the pin hole ,fill (TIG) the divot back to flat + slight excess with 310 stainless.....the austenitic deposit wont crack on case hardened steel....you will still need the drill bushing to get the hole right ,as it must be a close fit on the reduced pin.

I assume with light loads the problem doesn't happen ?

Pretty simple job to bush the firing pin ,one face of the block is parrallel with the firing pin hole set it up to that in the mill vice ,then center to quill on the original pin hole , I use a .090" pin in an er 32 collet .Set up a 6 or 8mm center cutting 4 flute end mill ,bore to a depth of .100" . Make a bush with a hole approx .070" from 01 drill rod , tin the socket in the block and solder the bush in place ,dress the plug to suit the block face with a fine file ,diamond file of you hardened the bush .Mount the firing pin barrel into the lathe and dress the firing pin down to .068 " - .066 " with a diamond file and honing stone .Done a few over the years .You will find that the martini extractor is not powerful enough to extract cases if you use 222 Remington load data for bolt action rifles .I use a slightly reduced load in my 222Rimmed martini ,1-2 grains under minimum for 222Remington .Had the very exact problem ,had to use a cleaning rod to bump the empties out .The 222 Rimmed is a unique Australian cartridge , designed here in OZ ,became very popular to rebarrel martinis in .Very accurate ,but the martini extractor is its downfall ,action it self is very strong.

BigEyeBob, I have shot a few of those 222 Rimmed over the years and all were loaded with 222 Remington load data with no problems at all with extraction, in fact one guy I knew had a shortage of rimmed shells and actually fired 222 Remington factory in his and picked the shells out with a small bent screw driver. My Cadet was bushed as you said when I had it re barreled to 357 Maximum and the only problem I had with extraction was a badly fitted extractor which I sorted with a small needle file. I must say that some cadets seem to suffer from extraction problems while others do not. The 357 Max shell can be run through a 222 form die and make great 222 Rimmed brass although a mill or so short in the neck. Regards Stephen

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Originally Posted by enfield

I assume with light loads the problem doesn't happen ?

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According to the reloading manuals, these were light loads.

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Originally Posted by john.k

Must have been many thousands of them done here .....might be more economic for you to see if you could buy a bushed block from Australia.....Your assessment is spot on,if the primer extrudes ,the metal has the be sheared to open the block............this is possibly the biggest fault of the Martini Cadet ......you cant recock the mechanism and fire a second time ,to bash in the primer.......here,there is a local crowd ,still trading who did very many back in the day.....Kingston Brothers.

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Now that's an idea that just didn't occur to me. I knew the 222Rim originated in Australia. Do you have any suggestions for how to find a bushed block for sale in Australia? Fleabay?

Thank you, Richard

Its a pity that BIS is no longer visiting this forum as he had a vast knowledge of Martini problems and cures

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Originally Posted by RG1911

Now that's an idea that just didn't occur to me. I knew the 222Rim originated in Australia. Do you have any suggestions for how to find a bushed block for sale in Australia? Fleabay?

Thank you, Richard

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Ebay australia does not allow of certain gunpart sales , due to the hoplophobic nature of the Australian Federal and various State govts .There are two online firearm sale sites , there is frequently parts and firearms on there .Usedguns and Ozgunsales .Im not entirely sure how you would fare trying to buy from there .Australian customs are extremely tough on imports ,not sure about exports .Its a tough life for a firearm enthusiast in Australia .I will keep an eye out ,for a breech block .

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Originally Posted by BigEyeBob

Ebay australia does not allow of certain gunpart sales , due to the hoplophobic nature of the Australian Federal and various State govts .There are two online firearm sale sites , there is frequently parts and firearms on there .Usedguns and Ozgunsales .Im not entirely sure how you would fare trying to buy from there .Australian customs are extremely tough on imports ,not sure about exports .Its a tough life for a firearm enthusiast in Australia .I will keep an eye out ,for a breech block .

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I'm sorry to hear that things are so tough for shooters in Oz; it's a heck of a fight to keep our liberties here.

I'll see if I can access the two sites you mentioned. And many thanks for also keeping your eye out for possibilities.

Cheers, Richard

One thing I have heard about small martini breech blocks is some say they must be lapped so that the face is at 90 degrees to the breechface of the barrel. I saw one that had been done on one of the smaller cadet sized martinis and there was a circular flat on the face of the breechface. Frank

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Originally Posted by samari46

One thing I have heard about small martini breech blocks is some say they must be lapped so that the face is at 90 degrees to the breechface of the barrel. I saw one that had been done on one of the smaller cadet sized martinis and there was a circular flat on the face of the breechface. Frank

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Never heard that ,Ive been working on martini small frames for quite a few years ,sounds like ,well you know .

I have squared the front of the block on larger Martini Enfields ,generally in combination with removing part of the primer ring ......however I ve never noticed any substantial primer ring on a Cadet.I generally use the witness mark from a new case base to judge whether the face is square to the chamber or not ......If I was having extraction difficulties ,I would check that ........but I think the Cadets were made to a very high standard ,and the blocks are exactly right .

We are whistling into the wind.

What load are you using, especially the primer.
I had a 218 Bee Cadet and had to switch to a CCI 450 primer
and drop the powder weight a little bit and all is now well
and it is accurate.
Mike