Many suppliers characterize their projectiles as "hard cast". What is the standard for hard cast boolits? Is it up to each manufacturer or is there an industry standard.
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Many suppliers characterize their projectiles as "hard cast". What is the standard for hard cast boolits? Is it up to each manufacturer or is there an industry standard.
There’s no industry standard I’m aware of. Hard cast survives shipping better, and looks better when the consumer opens the package. You can make equal or better at home.
Tomato’s are picked green because they ship well. Then food plants use ethylene gas to change the color from green to pinkish red.
If you are buying lead boolets, be sure to buy at least 0.001” larger diameter than jacketed bullets.
Commerical hard cast boolit alloy is 6-2-92 which is around 15 BHN.
There is no definition across casters. Too many cast shooters associate hardness with leading so they advertise that to get sales.
I define it as any number that prevents bullet deformation with the caliber and load of interest. Obviously a poofy load in a 44 special would have a different definition of hardness than a max load in a 9. Hardness is more of a range variable really. Poor dimension guns cause ALL the problems and create the opinions that you read here on this board. A good dimension gun that allows a bullet to enter the support of steel with the lube still entact can shoot pretty much anything. The worst curse to cast bullet acceptance is the term obduration. Obduration sounds more acceptable than deformation.
Most advertised as hard cast, are too hard for the intended purpose.
I've always considered anything I measure after casting that's above 12 brinell
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Soft = pure or < 1% alloying elements that do not materially harden the lead.
Hard Lead = 3% or more of some hardening alloy - usually tin or antimony - that will raise the Bhn of the lead bullet.
Hard lead birdshot is usually 3% SB (Antimony), and wheel weights are usually 3-5% Sb with a smidgen of tin. Regular buckshot is pure lead as it is formed in a heading machine (think two opposing rams that have hemisphere cavities) as pure lead is easy to form but "magnum" or hardened buckshot can be up to 5% Sb.
On the Brinel scale of hardness, pure lead falls about 5. The "hard" lead with 3-5% Sb or significant tin run 8-10 Bhn. That is certainly hard enough up to 1000-1100 fps velocity with proper techniques.
Hope this helps. You are entering a "which oil is better for your engine" never ending debate when you bring up how-hard-is-your-lead? Truth is we can use pretty soft lead to do it right.
KB
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This.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioon44
It is what I purchase and works for punching paper or ringing steel with pistol caliber weapons. I would not hesitate to use it for four legged critter control. Expansion, or lack of it, is not necessary for stuff smaller than a coyote.
I like to KISS. An alloy that is consistent wrt casting temperature and mold fill out has value to me. When I bought commercial alloy, it cost me $.50 a pound more than buying scrap wheel weight or "mystery alloy". If someone shoots 5000 bullets a year (.38 and 9mm), that works out to 115 lbs of alloy. Saving less than $60/year seems like a low ROI.
IMO the "secret" to commercial alloy is the 2% Sn content. It aids in casting and mold fill out. Commercial casters demand quality and productivity. The 6% Sb gets the hardness up.
One of the things you will hear when a mold is not casting well is to "add more tin" - up to 2%. But tin is not cheap. Most wheel weight alloy has .5% or less Sn. Tin goes for about $10-12/lb. Adding 1.5% of tin to that 115 lbs above will cost about $20.
There is history that "hard" bullets lead, especially in pistol calibers. IMO that is because they used too small a diameter bullet for the bore. Soft lead is more forgiving with undersized bullets. Size .0015 -.002 over bore and leading seems to go away.
My Bullseye target loads for .38 Spl were made with very hard Linotype and I did not get leading. But I had a mentor who knew what he was doing. The internet had not been invented yet, so we did not know any better...LOL.
Most commercial casters hardcast is BHN22. No obturation, no expansion, will cause leading even when cylinder throats are correctly sized. Often packed with the hard crayon lube which is as the boolits are, too hard to serve any practical purpose.
I can not resist. Anything that is hard to cast........ budabump
BHN22 is pretty high on the scale. I can't picture that deforming much at all
bingo!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by waksupi
Elmer considered 1 in 16 tin to lead hard cast compared to such alloys as 1 in 20 or 1 in 40. His hardcast compares well to the ww of 1990's. When I hear "hardcast" I think this is someone who thinks they are smarter than the rest of us.
Does super hard alloying have a place in out sport? I believe so, especially if you are powder coating and pushing the limits velocity. I have heard from one I trust of pushing a 223 cast projectile at 3000 fps with a harder, more ductile than stereotype from a special babbit run. The alloy might be repeatable if you were willing to buy 10 tons at $5 a lb. I don't know what the alloy was nor will I tell them where to speak to the person who talked to them about it. Just remember that there are strange things done in the midnight sun, and we don't always know what we think we know. Imagine telling Col Harrison in the 1950's to forget about playing with lubes and just paint his bullets.
All that "hardcast" means is that pure lead was alloyed with another metal to increase the hardness of the finished product. There is no other actual definition. The add-on metals are most commonly tin and/or antimony. Lead and tin can be alloyed to roughly equal Lymans #2 alloy, but of an alloy that is more malleable and less prone to brittleness than alloys that include antimony, which gives the alloy a more crystalline make up, and excessive amounts can make bullets brittle.
"Hardcast" without an actual BHN# is absolutely meaningless.
(Caveat emptor comes to mind)
2-6-96 casts beautifully no questions about it. Scrap WW have changed over the years from about 5%Sb in the 70's to about 3%Sb now, I would estimate, mostly because there are a lot of stickon weights in the mix and the WW makers probably save $ wherever they can. When rendering reclaimed WW, I would add 1# of Sn to the melt (100# in an old 8qt aluminum stock pot) for about a 1-3-96 alloy that casts pretty good if done a little hot. Most went into a 6 cavity Lee and a 4 cavity Saeco 230gr RN and were double chilled and lubed with Alox in an oversized die to just lube and leave them @ as cast diameter. These I shot en masse through a NFA Title 2 Thompson M1A in front of 5.2gr of Bullseye for about 950fps out of the 10.5" barrel. The cyclic rate went up from about 450-500rpm with White Box factory ammo to about 550-600rpm with the cast reloads. Even with 9 of them proceeding down the barrel one after the other every second, there was almost zero leading. Most lead buildup was on the Cutts Compensator (yeah, I know the M1A had a plain barrel, but the previous owner screwed on a Milspec replacement with the Cutts that he bought surplus when the Ordinance Department dumped their old inventory). That was the hardest gun to get cast bullets to run in and it did fine with 1-3-96 which is twice as hard as pure Pb. So "hard lead" may be subjective but the Birdshot makers say 3%Sb is where it starts.
If you know your alloy there are tables in the Lyman books to give you a good guess. I use a Lee tester. Under 1000fps anything above pure Pb can work. 3-97 WW scrap that is double chilled works for me up to 1300+fps with a good lube. I imagine powder coated they could be run slightly hotter. Paper patched bullets are pretty soft and they can be run in the 2000+fps range.
FWIW I have found very hard alloys work without gas cutting if they are 0.002" or more above bore diameter as the extra diameter obturates well just like a jacketed bullet does.
My apologies for the long post. But some of you probably needed the nap.....
KB
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I believe "hard cast" is just a term started/used by newer casters. Maybe started to differentiate between swaged or cast bullets. I also believe newer lead bullet reloaders believed "harder is better" and commercial casters just gave them what they wanted. To me it just signifies lesser experienced lead bullet users (didn't want to offend anyone with "ignorant"). Seems today any bullet over BHN 12 can be considered "hard cast"...
Howdy and welcome to the forum. Like has already been stated hard cast is just a general term. If given the choice, I've found that 12 BHN bullets work for all of my needs including magnum pistol loads and full power 30-30.
Nailed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdi
Lets not forget that as lead ages ( matures) over a couple weeks the BHN will go up . (alloy will get harder)
I see it partly as mdi(post #17)in the reference towards the difference between swaged,pure for BP,and sorta... anything else must be "hard cast". One other little addition is in plumber speak. And that's a reference back when lead pipes were in use... soft lead vs hard. The latter being used as wiping lead on joints. Which was a much richer(harder) alloy.
So I guess it comes from a cpl sources,thrown together and hard cast is how it ended up. It's not something to get wrapped around the axle about IMO. Sorta like clip vs magazine?
But one thing's for sure,high BHN numbers are most often overrated. To the point,I think the goal is how low a number can you utilize. Good luck with your question/research.