BATF Question Regarding Removable Stocks on Pistols

Well, I was just reading about a problem a feller had with a Rossi Ranch Hand POA and Factory target being incompatible with his gun when I came across this quote that a "Cast" member relied with.

"If you make a three to four inch lace up removable butt pad for it it is perfectly legal according to BATF since you can take it right off and it is not a fixed full length stock. The BTAF would take the same view if you put a rubber grip over your existing pistol grips."

I live in Michigan, so we cannot have Short Barreled Carbines of any sort so I will direct this to others in more forgiving states.

Can a guy make a detachable stock out of wood or some other material and attach that piece to his/her pistol and still be legal? I think a Smith and Wesson 460 X frame would be quite the firearm if a guy had the choice of shooting it like a pistol or attaching a shoulder stock if he needed to reach out and touch something at a long distance.

If it is legal, is there any criteria on how the bindings interact with the firearm itself. Would they have to be a quick detach set up, or could somone clamp them down with nuts and bolts?

Rossi Ranch Hand is manufactured as a handgun. I wouldn't convert it to a shoulder fired weapon under any circumstances. This firearm is blurring the line between handguns and long guns and I have no desire to test those waters in court. For the same reason all my TC Contenders are pistols. They were sold as handguns and will always be handguns. I won't keep a T/C shoulder stock around because an overzealous BATFE agent could make life miserable for me.

I'm no lawyer or atf rep, but to my understanding "once a rifle always a rifle". Mere possession of such a device could be viewed as manufacturing a sbr. To my understanding adding a forward grip to a pistol turns it instantly into a sbr also. I believe this has to do with a pistol being defined as a gun that has one grip to be fired with one hand or sum such malarkey. When in doubt go to the atf website. Of course if the barrel is longer then 16" then its a rifle and you can use whatever grip ya want- fer now.

Forward pistol grip on a pistol is a AOW not SBR.

Adding a slip on type butt pad doesn't change anything.
Its not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

Its not any different than those with ar 15 pistols putting foam on the buffer tube.

Do what you want. Your gun and your not harming anyone or anything.

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Originally Posted by Sgtonory

Do what you want. Your gun and your not harming anyone or anything.

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OMG - LOL - google BATF - ATFE - these people don't honor their own decisions about what's legal
If you want to put a buttstock on a pistol I'd suggest you register it as SBR and CYA

Yup, still as confused as ever.

birch,
If you pay $200. (NFA charge) you can put any kind of stock you want on a handgun(if legal in your state) because it is now an SBR. If you don't pay, DON'T play! Today it may be illegal to even think about doing it.
Ramar

In the '80's there was a pistol stock that was not attached, the back of the grips sat in a molded groove in the plastic stock, and was held together by the hand.
This was supposed to get around the ATF in that it was not attached to the gun.
There were a couple of magazine articles about it, but it disappeared. I don't know if the ATF got it, or it just fizzled out.

IIRC it was July 2011 that the ATF published a letter concerning this. If the gun is manufactured both as a handgun and a rifle then it can be converted from one to the other, but under no circumstances can it have a shoulder stock with a barrel shorter than 16" without the proper tax stamp. So with a gun like a Contender or Encore take it down to the frame and build it back up.
This letter also referenced a pistol that slips into a rifle stock with a rifle barrel already attached to it.
I spoke with an ATF agent here in Phoenix and he said they were trying to determine if this would also hold true for the AR type pistols.
If you google ATF Rul. 2001-4 you should find the link to the letter.

I would go the other direction , don't modify the gun in any way from factory , but , if you have thick clothing on and you held say that buffer tube to outside of the thick clothing

frankly the rules need to change and we should just call everything under 16 inches of barrel a pistol and everything over a rifle or since bull pups change the conceal-ability of a barrel longer than 16 inches , perhaps all guns shorter than 27 inches are pistols no matter how they are fired from hand or shoulder and anything that is purchased as a pistol or other can be made any length the owner wants.

right now you can tell the rules were made by people who hadn't a clue

tell me why a single shot 410 smooth bore pistol is some how more dangerous than a identical pistol with with light rifling and needs the AOW registration , none of it makes any sense.

that!

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Originally Posted by Sgtonory

Do what you want. Your gun and your not harming anyone or anything.

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That sounds nice in theory but completely ignores to possibility of time in a Federal penitentiary without possibility of parole and hefty fines plus being a convicted felon, convicted of a gun crime and the loss of all gun and voting rights for life. It could hurt your family if they depend on you as the breadwinner.

Curios and relics like the Broomhandle Mauser are allowed their wooden holster/stock but they are the exception rather than the rule.

David

I think a pistol is a pistol and a rifle is a rifle. I have no desire or intention of adding a shoulder stock as I own and shoot pistols for target and accuracy--something not many people can do well and I am still learning. I am however a student of the gun and to me, knowledge is key. I was just wondering about the legality of it as I could see a great and potential market if the ATF indeed says it is OK. Here in Michigan, it seems that anyone who owns an encore or contender like to change stocks and barrels, and I know that the ATF and local law enforcement have deemed it OK to do so with no legal issues. It is just seems that if Thompson Center can get away with that sort of physical arrangement, then why not Smith and Wesson? I see a potential market if the powers that be would allow it.

Let me tell you by EXPERIENCE, DON'T DO IT.

I did it, and ATF found out about it. I was up for 10 years in prison and many, many thousands in fines.

This was over 30 years ago when I was young and very ignorant. Fortunately, they let me off as well as put they fear of God of in me!

To this day I follow every gun law to the letter and don't joke about it.

These guys ARE serious!

Don't even think about it, Trust Me, PLease!

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Originally Posted by Sgtonory

Do what you want. Your gun and your not harming anyone or anything.

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That's great advice.........if you don't mind looking at bars for the next 10-20 years! BATF has no flexibility and no sense of humor. When they come after you they mean business. And how they enforce the rules is subject to change at any time. And may vary from one section of the country to the other.

If in doubt......DON'T!!

Is this the reason you can no longer find the 10" barrels and shoulder stocks for the 1911's? I remember some old catalogs and advertisements that had these and though it was a cool idea. Now, I no longer see either the longer barrels or the shoulder stocks available anyplace.

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Originally Posted by Silver Eagle

Is this the reason you can no longer find the 10" barrels and shoulder stocks for the 1911's? I remember some old catalogs and advertisements that had these and though it was a cool idea. Now, I no longer see either the longer barrels or the shoulder stocks available anyplace.

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Quite possibly. To play it safe remember that a handgun is a handgun, a long gun is a long gun. Anything that blurs the line is likely a felony with possible federal pen time or a chance to buy your lawyer's next new car, if you're lucky.

Anyone google the letter I referenced above? I would post a link but can't figure out how to do it.

The real question is are you willing to give up your rights to possess a firearm for the rest of your life along with jail time and huge fines. All it takes is the wrong person to see this thing and it's all over. Just one of your buddies talks to someone and the word gets to the wrong person and it's all over. Are the actions worth the consequences. Your choice

gmsharps

For me, forget the worry about prosecution. Forget the possibility of losing gun ownership and voting rights.
I am WAY too good looking for federal prison. I would be popular in all the wrong ways! And I just dont relish that kind of attention. I am a very sensitive person. I am emotional and fragile and very in touch with my emotions. That would not be good.
Really, for me, I would not chance it. Not without some kind of letter from the powers that be saying it is ok. My local ATF agent is rather amiss about a lot. Even he cannot figure out the laws and he is supposed to be paid to enforce them. And I dont call him incompetent, it is just confusing even to the agents paid to enforce the laws.

Here is the ATF letter on the Thompson Center Contender/Encore issue:

http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations...ing-2011-4.pdf

The Supreme Court ruling in United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. (91-0164), 504 U.S. 505 (1992).

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-0164.ZO.html

Analysis by Stephen P. Halbrook, Counsel for Thompson/Center Arms

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

These water are muddy!
This is why I have two frames; one purchased as a pistol, and the other purchased as a carbine.
I can back my position with the 4473 from my dealer.

However, if they want you bad enough, even that may fail. Someone may have converted a pistol frame to a carbine before I bought it.
I think, (a dangerous think when the Feds are involved.) I am covered, as I bought it as a rifle.

The last I heard, you could convert a pistol to a rifle, but converting it back to a pistol was forbidden.
YMMV

Hmmmm...need to do some reading here. My older brother is a big fan of the T/C Encore pro and has at least 2 frames (the serial numbered parts) if I recall. He purchased both at Grices Gun Shop in Clearfield and if memory serves both frames are registered as pistols (as per their suggestion) and he has rifle buttstocks and rifle barrels on both frames. Grices standing is that the frames can be converted to pistols lawfully by adding the proper barrels/forestocks/handgrip as designed by T/C. and returned to rifle design with said rifle barrels. I'm a little fuzzy on a pistol length barrel with a rifle buttstock however. He also has a T/C Contender G2 which I presume is the same frame as the Encore. (??) So he does possess pistol barrels that could be (I assume) fitted to the Encore Pro. Gaaaaah...this is making my head hurt. I'll go read now. Audie...the mistified Oldfart..

T/C's may be OK thanks to ATF's 2011 letter. The link is to Mike Bellum's page on the subject.
[URL="http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239"http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239[/URL]

THe letter applies to mare than just T/Cs as it references a pistol that slips into a stock with a rifle barrel. This is the old Galef combo that was imported many years ago. Don't know if the ATF ever made a decision on the AR style pistols yet.

Oldfart1956
The Encore Barrels and the Contender Barrels do not interchange, different size frames. Original Contender and G2 Contender barrels are interchangeable. The hand grips and butt stocks for Encores, original Contenders and G2 Contenders do not interchange because the Encore is a different size frame and the old and new Contenders have different grip angles.

Don't ever put on a pistol length barrel while the rifle stock is attached, that would definitely be illegal.

The ATF agent I spoke with said to take the T/C down to the frame and start building from there.

The real shame here is that we've let things get to the point that we are afraid of our own government.

Getting back to birch's question- unless the S&W had a 16 inch barrel then you couldn't legally put a stock on it. If Michigan allowed sbr's, and it had a barrel shorter than 16 inches, you could pay the $200 Nfa tax and make a legal sbr.

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Originally Posted by leadman

The ATF agent I spoke with said to take the T/C down to the frame and start building from there.

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You know it's lovely that you have blind faith in one agent who reads the rules one way, but I wouldn't want to test it with an agent in a different part of the country who may have not read that letter, and never assume that all bureaucrats have the same level of knowledge and agree that things will be handled the same way.

If the government gets it's $200 it's ok, otherwise you're a criminal even if you do not commit a crime with it. Possession of it is not a crime even if you commit a crime with it as long as you give the gov. their pound of flesh? As long as you have money it's ok?

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Originally Posted by DLCTEX

If the government gets it's $200 it's ok, otherwise you're a criminal even if you do not commit a crime with it. Possession of it is not a crime even if you commit a crime with it as long as you give the gov. their pound of flesh? As long as you have money it's ok?

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Yep, It's the Golden Rule.........He who has the gold makes the rule! If you don't believe it ask Cullen Davis, or O.J. Simpson!