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I've been looking to see if I can find threads about deer and hog hunting with the 357mag but I keep turning up empty. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction. I haven't yet decided on which mould to purchase and hope this helps me make the right decision.
I highly recommend the 158 gr weight bullets for rifles, and I like 180 HP or a light 135 Ranch Dog Solid in revolvers.
I personally have killed about 17 deer with the 357 rifle and most of them have been with the NOE 154 WFN GC at 2050 fps muzzle velocity. I killed a few with the Ranch Dog 135 between 1350 fps and 2100 fps impact speeds. A 180 solid just makes a small hole until bones are hit. The faster 135 solid makes a noticably wider hole, whether comparing a 1300 fps 180 to a 1600 fps 135 in the revolver or comparing a 1750 fps 180 and a 2100 fps 135 in the rifle. The faster flat nose will always make a wider hole so if you want hard go light, and if you want expansion go heavier.
My only negative experience with the 357 was with a soft 135 at over 2000 fps impact velocity. This bullet and load only penetrated 3 milk jugs, but it had 100% weight retention and mushroomed to about 70 caliber. The bullet make a huge hole in the first lung, a tiny hole in the second lung, and didnt even crack a rib on the far side ribcage. That deer went about 200 yards due to lack of penetration. Every other deer killed was down within about 75 yards or less, and every other deer killed was with a load that penetrates 5 milk jugs or more.
Hollow points below 180 grains don't penetrate enough to hunt with (or for self defense if you stick to FBI criteria) and hard flat noses above 135 gr make small holes because they penetrate too far.
I've had excellent results with the 358156 in both the rifle and in revolvers. It is my "go to" bullet for hunting with the 357 Magnum. I cast them of 20-1 or 16-1 alloy.
Rifle or handgun?
if cost is a concern, the Lee 158 RNFP is a popular one.
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I'm with Larry. Solid advice.
I am casting the Lee 357-158 RFN. Would you suggest the use of 2400 or AA9 be better than Blue Dot or AA7. Would you think the LEE .357-158 GC be better than the 357-158FRN?
Didn't Elmer favor 20:1 for most stuff and 16:1 for larger tougher animals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Gibson
I would suggest a 158gr RF GC design cast in 50/50+2% or 20:1 Lee makes a 158gr RF but it's bevel base and I would much prefer a gas check.
I don't hunt with a 357 but if I were to take the 35 caliber to the woods, the boolit I mentioned would be my choice over a full house of H110 or if you wanted to slow it down a bit, 2400.
I have grown to very much appreciate the Lee 358-158-RF Only going to the Gas checked 358156, or the clone from Lee...if I am Pushing them really Hard!
Powder of Choice??? Gonna get many suggestions...But...I have sent the Lee 358-158-RF down field at over 1300 FPS without problem!!
The bullet Larry recommended allows a GC. That may be useful if you are using a carbine and pushing velocities up near 1600 fps.
It is also a dual crimp groove bullet and that may be attractive if you are using .38 Spl brass for plinking.
I would first ask if you intend for it to mechanically feed through a lever action or other repeater. That will have some bearing on your nose shape, as will intentions to hunt at longer ranges (beyond 100 yards)
A lot of good wisdom in mnewcomb59's #2 post.
3-4 milk jugs of penetration is what you should expect from police duty loads that were engineered to penetrate adequately, but not excessively in social settings, but if you take away the expansion, I've gotten nine jugs of penetration out of "duty velocity" 230 grain / .32" meplat .45 Auto at 835 fps and the same out of a 135 grain 9mm / .25" meplat at 1030 fps. Nine jugs also for a 130 grain .321" rifle with a .25-.28" meplat at 1250 fps - - the same bullet for that one when cast out of softer 20-1 mushroomed beautifully, but stopped in only four jugs with the same powder charge. For the "horizontally-arranged" torso of game animals and the ability to deal with quartering shots, I'd be a lot more comfortable with something I know will deliver 5+ milk jugs, so that will require a heavier bullet if expansion is wanted.
Obviously, there's plenty of potential in the .357 for deer thumping. If you want an expanding bullet, I would look at NOE's 175-185 grain WFN profile offerings that are sold with both deep cavity and shallow cup point pins that allow you more flexibility in regulating penetration and expansion. Those also give you the flat nose pin for casting as a non-expanding solid. I have their Ranch Dog TL359-178RF, and while I like it a lot, the nose is too chubby to chamber in the three Rugers I have access to when using .357 brass, and I either load for those in .38 hulls or use a different bullet (I designed the Accurate 36-170C to work around that - no HP pins though). The S&W's don't have that issue but the 360-182WFN-U2 with it's more tapered nose should be a better fit in a GP-100.
If you want to go the lighter, faster, non-expansive route, a meplat of .27"-.29" at the front of 135-150 (ish) grains driven hard should be quite the wrecking ball. For that concept in revolver only, the 36-137V looks like a doozy. For more of a sure thing feeding in rifles, maybe start with the 36-145G and configure the base and/or lube grooves to suit (I like tumble lube with plain base/no gas check, but YMMV).
My first deer with a handgun was around 89. I shot it with a 125 gr jacketed factory load, 4" Model 19 Smith. It turned out to be a shot at a downward angle about 40 yards away. There was bone, fragments and bloodshot meat everywhere. I have had much better results with the RF bullets developed by Veral Smith. NOE has a couple in their 180 and 160 rf. There is a world of difference in this cartridge from a rifle, 10" contender and a revolver. Please share what you have to use.
One thing I would like to add to the discussion is that 158s are a great bullet weight in the revolver when your alloy and impact speed let the meplat grow a little bit. An alloy between 11 and 13 BHN with an impact speed of 1300 or so will make a .28 meplat completely change gears when the meplat grows into a 38 cal wadcutter. If you know your .28" meplat is going to grow to 35-40 caliber the 158s and 180s make a decent wound for 150-200 pound game.
I will tell you this, the 358156GC over 13.5gr of 2400 is VERY potent. I typically cast mine out of 50/50+2%, and it shoots like a laser beam. I'd have no issue using it on a deer or a hog. That said, if you want something heavier, the 358429 is the Classic heavy, but it really isn't super heavy at 170gr. But at 1200fps, you can be sure it'll drive deep into just about whatever you shoot at it. I also have one of the original Ranch Dog 190gr Molds. It is very accurate, but I've never tested it on anything but paper, it is accurate though. I guess if I had to pick just one mold, the 358156GC mold is probably the most versatile. You can drive it to close to 1300fps with the 13.5gr of 2400 depending on what you're shooting it in. If you want to really push it, you can use H110 and get close to 1400fps depending on barrel length.
To those who asked what I'll be shooting these in... I presently have a Rossi 92chambered in 357mag that will be shooting these bullets through but hope to add a 4" double action revolver before long. I'm torn between and older Ruger Security Six or a new Ruger GP 100.
I've tried both SA and DA (and owned both) and really wanted to like the SA more but find that I shoot the DA better(in single action.) I'm hoping to find one load that will shoot well in both the carbine and revolver but realize that getting there can be somewhat difficult sometimes. The stands that I will typically hunt with the 357 will allow a maximum range shot of less than 100 yds. Some of them quite less.
I still don't know which camp I fall into. Do I shoot heavy for caliber boolits at moderate velocity and let bullet shape, large meplate, do the work? Or, should I shoot normal to slightly heavy expanding cast boolits to take game? This is a question that I don't yet have enough experience to answer. Therefore , I need to hear your experiences. Please help me understand the killing power of both. Almost all the places I hunt are very close to a pine sapling thickets that are choked with briars and thorny vines that can be nearly impenetrable. If deer or hogs head into this stuff they better be leaving a blood trail that a blind man can follow and it better be short. In those areas I generally shoot for the shoulders in an effort to break down the running gear. I'd much rather have a deer on the ground in a right of way and give up a little shoulder meat than shoot "behind the shoulders" and have the game run seventy five yards in a death run. Seventy five yards in a thicket is a tough find and I'm like to come out bleeding!
So share your thoughts with me...
When it comes to large game, I highly recommend heavy for cal. A 175 to 180 gr. Weight means better penetration, especially thru bone.
My Honest Thought...Not a Place I would use a 357Mag
But..Not what you needed..sorry Because I would be using 44Mag at Minimum...I guess Heavy, and fairly Fast Boolits
Good Spot for the Herrett or better yet, the 35 Remington...if ya gotta use 35 cal Ammo
---I have to go along with the 44, 35 Rem, or 358. I have used 357 rifles & still have 1, sold the 92 Rossi. I shoot a lot of big bore stuff now unless I can get the X-tra velocity from a 35 cal. But the 357 will do the job! -06
Well if you want them to drop in their tracks you need a way bigger gun. 1200 foot pounds will only make so big of a temporary stretch cavity, whether you use it all up in 12" or stretch it out to 48". The temporary stretch cavity displaces blood and organs with air, acting like a super hard bear hug, which will burst some blood vessels in the brain. More energy means more volume of air in the TSC and more of a blood pressure spike in the brain, which means a higher chance of instant knock out.
Occassionally some low penetration 1000-1300 foot pound rifles will cause this effect on deer, but in my experience it is less than 20% of the time. If you wanna reliably drop deer with hydrostatic shock you need about 2000-3000 foot pounds at impact with a low penetration type of bullet such as a light for caliber 270 or 30-06 JSP. Even the big guns only drop deer about 50% of the time with a lung shot.
If you just wanna shoot them in the neck or leg bones any hard 38 special flat nose works just fine. I think any hunter should have the skills to track 75 yards before they pull the trigger. Just know that this gun makes fantastic exit holes compared to any small bore rifle and they dump blood.
I have killed a good amount of deer with neck shots when it's available but I know the full power 158 has plenty of power to kill the biggest deer in the midwest with any shot angle presented to me. 2050 fps, 158 gr, 100% weight retention and mushrooms to 66 cal and it reliably exits big bucks on broadside or slightly quartering shots with a huge hole that dumps blood. Very easy blood trails. It has enough penetration to take any quartering shot and break any offside bone it encounters. The only few bullets I recovered were neck shots that went through lots of vertebrae or Texas heart shots with the bullet in the neck or in front of the shoulder.
NSB (member here) has shot many deer with a .357. If he does not see this thread, you may want to PM him. IIRC he uses a pistol but a rifle will be even more effective.
I just started last season with my Ruger M77/357 using an NOE 180gr wide flat nose. Just getting comfortable using and not pushing it or myself had it sitting in corner for the perfect canadate = within 50yds broadside. It did the job, but I was not able to recover the lead and it did not pass through just could not locate it. So This fall I plan on taking it to 100yds and furthering my knowledge. Good luck
When you get ready to buy, I can give a high review of the GP100. I just purchased one with a 6" barrel, and couldn't be happier. Check out my post in this thread, you can see the groups I shot at 25yds without even trying too hard...Quote:
Originally Posted by FMpreacher
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-you-run/page2
I agree with Bigslug who suggested looking at the NOE 185 gr WFN. I hunt with a rifle using it with no leading at an MV of 1400. That is one serious hunting boolit out to 75+ yards even on medium black bear.
Since the OP is considering both rifle and handgun. . .
The nice thing about a heavy-for-caliber solid is that it behaves very consistently on impact regardless of how fast it's going - - it's going to penetrate a lot.
You can warp your brain out of shape trying to figure out at what range a given bullet design and alloy combo will expand reliably for two very different barrel lengths and launch speeds, or you can plan around a straight line of damage through something important and blood-bearing on the way to breaking the shoulder on the far side of the animal out of either gun.
The heavier NOE WFN's with the solid/deep HP/shallow HP options allow you to play the expansion game (if you want to) while still having the mass to carry through decently. They do not let you properly swim in the high-speed impact pool, but that's not really the forte of the straight-wall pistol round anyway - deliver a 2,000+ fps rifle impact for those shenanigans.
The only thing about the heavy solid is they make the smallest wound out of any bullet option. He wants them down in under 75 yards. If he misses bone or only takes out the offside leg, that deer can go hundreds of yards before the little pin hole in its lungs bleeds enough.
A mushrooming bullet that penetrates enough to break bones would drop them a lot quicker than a bullet that doesn't mushroom. A lightweight fast bullet that doesn't mushroom would make a lot bigger hole than a heavy slow bullet that doesn't mushroom. I am being completely honest that a hard 180 makes the smallest possible wound in this caliber. It is already a low powered cartridge, so why pick a bullet that can penetrate 3 broadside deer in a row? All you are doing is taking the low powered cartridge and deciding "I am only going to use 1/3 of this power on a deer and let 2/3 of the wounding potential hit the dirt on the other side." At least with a lighter hard cast you might use half or 2/3 of the energy and make a hole twice as wide.
If you check some of Veral Smith's charts about meplat size and impact speed vs wound diameter you can see just how much more wound you can get with a faster, lighter flat nose.
mnewcomb59 does bring up a good point. Even thinking back to some of my readings on Keith, who was obsessed with heavies, was primarily hunting heavy game. You'd have a better chance finding him hunting Mulies than White Tails. Under those circumstances, yeah, a heavy would be more desirable. That said, I do think the 158gr has remained the standard for the 357mag for a reason. It's heavy enough, and still delivers a lot of energy to the target. But you also have to wonder if there really is much to be said about the difference of 158gr @ 1300fps vs 170gr @ 1200fps on white tail....
Edit: I should probably add, from memory most of my readings on keith that I can remember would suggest he typically preferred the 44Spl for hunting instead of the 357mag. I could be wrong though...
Here's a link to one I killed with a .357 GP-100 a few years ago. Also one using a 10MM Model 610. In my opinion they both killed with about the same efficiency.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...71-357-Success
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...hic-photo-quot
There you go. 160gr at 1200fps to the rescue... That's not a full house load from the sounds of it. And it was enough to do the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by nannyhammer
Nine grains of Blue Dot for carbine loads, a little under 1400 out of my Marlin 1894c.Quote:
Originally Posted by racepres
I've only killed one with cast boolits in .357. It was a 158gr. SWC . Not really any expansion. Got both lungs though. I've shot a lot of the 158 gr. Lee flat points but, never hunted with them. But, last year killed a buck with a Remington 158 gr JHP behind 15.5 gr H110 and CCI 550. I know it's a J word bullet. But, did pretty good expansion and penetration.