Anybody know if this is an OK thing to do?
The box does not say "Don't do it", only says don't mix black & smokeless - of course.
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Anybody know if this is an OK thing to do?
The box does not say "Don't do it", only says don't mix black & smokeless - of course.
Attachment 186426
I also have an old Alcan manual,but that file exceeds forum limits.PM with e-mail if your interested.
Thanks BB. PM sent.
Good luck, there are a few of us doing it. But essentially breaks the shotgun rule of "never substitute, change a recipe" and there is very very little good load data in smokeless.
Never having used Mag Tech brassies, I may be speaking out of turn here but years ago, I loaded a bunch of brass Rem-Umc shells from the Army that were used as guard loads and originally loaded with 00 Buck.
I used a Large Pistol primer, standard load of Red Dot, 1 1/8 ounce of shot and a .125" card wad and a 1/2" felt wad (11 gauge) with an overshot wad glued in by sodium silicate. They worked great in my 12 gauge double and I got really strange looks when I slid a pair into the 12 gauge on the dove field. Finally ran out of 11 gauge wads and traded them to somebody. Don't see any reason not to load smokeless./beagle
Considering that I have found absolutely no load data for brass shotshells, I wanted to share with you guys what I found regarding brass shotshells in the 16 gauge. As always, if you decide to do this, be safe. This is NOT a published load and may not work correctly in your firearm.
We started with 12.5 grains of Alliant Promo which sounded VERY mild. We tried 13.0 grains, then we worked up to 14.0 grains which seemed to be a fairly decent load, but then 14.5 grains patterned better. It later proved to be a good squirrel load. The loads use 1 oz. of #7.5 lead shot.
Enough wad pressure is essential to the function of these shotshells. I ordinarily use a hardwood dowel and a few good taps with a hammer to seat the nitro card hard against the powder, then use the same technique to compress the fiber cushion wads against the nitro card.
Alliant Promo can be substituted for Alliant Red Dot by weight, but the density of the powder is different. Therefore, the same weight charge will not be dispensed by the same size dipper/powder bushing.
The CBC brass hulls (by Magtech) use Large Pistol Primers. That's extremely handy when you don't want to have to stock an extra set of primers for your shotguns
Components used in one shotshell, in order:
1. CBC 16 Gauge Hull
2. Federal Large Pistol Primer
3. 14.5 Grains of Alliant Promo
4. .125 Maxi Nitro Over-Powder Card
5. .500 Fiber Cushion Wad (2)
6. .030 Overshot Card
Then, use a drop or two of Duco Cement to seal the overshot card to ensure it doesn't fall out while jostling around in a pocket, etc.
Might I add, I don't know I'll ever start using plastic shot-cups in my reloads. The paper and fiber wads decompose and don't leave a mess in the woods, but I've found plastic wads from years gone by... they don't biodegrade.
I ordered my brass hulls at MidwayUSA and my fiber wads and cards from Ballistic Products, Inc. I'm not affiliated with either company and don't care where you get your stuff.
Below is a video I published on YouTube demonstrating how I reload brass 16 gauge shotshells.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-qrquIYh3U
Two lessons I have learned since the video: Don't use Elmer's glue on 16 gauge shells. Worked fine on .410's, but pulls away from the sides of the 16 gauge hull. Don't ask me why. Secondly, don't use lubricated fiber wads (dry ones are fine). It soaks through the nitro card and the powder and then you get bloopers and hangfires.
That's a good video Slade. Thanks.
I've used 25gn of Universal under 9x 000 buck with a magnum rifle primer in 12ga magtech brass. Any less in powder or using a pistol primer I would get bloopers. They take 10gauge wads easy so in my mind it should be fairly safe to use mild target 10 gauge data. Only my opinion and I haven't tested the theory.
Can you use the data for plastic to load the brass shells?
Most likely just end up with bloopers,the brass hulls don't have an internal taper (my old Alcan anyway) or base wad.Paper hull's may be closer,but still they use a base wad.I found ONE receipe calling for Red Dot in my old Alcan brochure and thats what i'm using.
Just not willing to MESS with shotgun loads much more than I already have.
I too found reference to Red Dot and have some loaded, but not yet fired or tested.
I'm positive the 16 gauge can handle more than the 14.5 grain load of Alliant Promo that I'm loading. It is such a mild load. But, I'm afraid to play with it much more because I don't have a pressure trace unit. And, it's killing squirrels. So...
Attachment 187469
Thank you for letting me know about Red Dot.that is not a problem.I have the shotgun book of lyman that was the first one out. I think I could make it all work out if I go that way. Thank you
If you really want to know how to load Magtec brass shells, either find two 2010 Handloader magazines, #266 & 267, or buy a booklet sold by Ballistic Products Inc., authored by Rober VanDenburg the same person that wrote articles in the Handloader. They have plenty of recipes for smokeless powder. He'll tell you why new South American CBC(Magtec) & RMC(Rocky Mountain Cartridge) brass shell's being sold now aren't all the same, plus how the old brass shells are also somewhat different, depending on manufacture. Kind of like the old Alcan shells, some were primed with shotshell primers and some with large pistol primers, like the older Remington and Winchester shells.
Years ago I loaded 12 Ga. Remington & Winchester brass shells using 10 Ga. paper wads. 16 Ga. using 12 Ga. paper wads. Some 10 Ga. brass could be loaded with 10 Ga. components. Don't recall loading 20Ga. , But we may have.
Handloader nos. 265 and 269 are as close as anybody has for sale on www.bookfinder.com . But it is a useful source for anybody who wants other editions, and maybe those in time.
I would say at $14 Ballistic Products manual would your best bet.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Rel...info/00MBRASS/
I would say it is a waste of time and money.
Read a little deeper.
" These loads feature all black powder and black powder substitute propellants (e.g., Triple Se7en, Pyrodex, etc.). There are no smokeless loads at this time."
As such this is no help at all for anyone wanting to use smokeless powder in magtech brass.
ps Sorry did not mean to come across sounding so harsh.
IMO the reason brass hulls are not used more often is that they force one to either throw the entire shotgun reloading rule book out the window. Or simply regret buying them and stick them in a drawer and not use them.
As far as I can see a shotgunners Rule # 1 is never ever substitute components and only use published data.
To use magtech brass and smokeless you pretty much have to ignore that rule.
redot would be good. big problem with all brass is the heat will split the case.
some years back Remington had a run of "ducks" that was in a tin box . they were all brass berdin primed with what looks like a BMG size primer. I bought a case because 'well because' I shot about 1/2 of one of the tins only one didn't burn through
I didn't see expansion just the brass burned a line from base about 1/2 way up. the brass was VERY thin and the load was hot,full power. don't know the powder but it wasn't red or green as recoil was like a mag load.
there is a card in the tin that has warning do not shoot in old guns . I can see why after about 10
I have found a better load for the brass 16 gauge shells. 20 grains of Trail Boss (DO NOT COMPRESS THIS POWDER, just gently seat the wads on top of the powder). 23 blows the pattern into a donut. Otherwise, use the same load data I posted prior. Again, don't trust this load but it worked fine for me. I got pressure tested load data from somewhere that showed me it was safe.
Yes, I really want to know how to load smokeless into 16 gauge Magtec brass shells but the two Handloader magazines do not deal with 16 gauge brass shells at all. The magazines list a number of 12 gauge black powder loads and two 12 gauge smokeless loads both using 11/8 ounce lead and 18 grains of red dot. Poster #6 was describing 16 gauge smokeless loads.
Thank you Slade for your two 16 gauge smokeless loads for Magtec brass shells. I will be playing with both loads in my guns this spring/summer.
If you can't find the cushion and card wads in the proper size (11 gauge for a 12 gauge brass shell) try circle fly. They make wads. I use their wads for loading my 12 gauge brass hulls. I also use Red Dot powder and large pistol primers.
There are some 12ga brass, smokeless recipes in the 12ga from hell thread if i remember correctly.
From my research I can tell you this about the wad column. After putting the card/seal over the powder, the wad column needs to be a minimum of half the inside diameter of the shell, and a maximum of the ID of the shell. You can use a mylar wrap if you want, but it isn't nessesary. Oh, if you use two felt wads put a drop of oil in the top one, and squeeze it, so it will absorb it. This will help with leading. Put an over shot card on top and seal it with Elmer's glue. This is from memory. I read it in an Ed Harris article. It was talking about loading 410 brass shells, but the reasons for the rules are the same. I'd find an old manual that has recipes that use the old Alcan felt wads and seals. Look for one that uses a straight walled hull. I'd use Promo/Red Dot, or Green Dot.
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Hmmm....here's an article on this.
https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...ss-shotshells/
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Brass shotgun shells are only for black powder, not smokeless? Someone should have told the U.S. Army who has used smokeless brass shells for generations.
It depends on the cases. Brass cases are much thinner than paper or plastic. This requires different wads. Also in increases volumes so that powders and loads that work with the smaller volume cases with not work properly with all brass.
Whether loaded with smokeless or black the allowable pressure limits will be the same. The problem with MagTech cases is that they are folded head, like a 22 rim fire, so they will not be as durable or long lived. Also the rim will be a weak point and if it fails there will be nothing to contain the pressure whereas with a solid head case the sidewalls of the head itself may contain some of the pressure in the event of a crack.
Find the article that CE Ed Harris wrote about it. He has no issues with it.
Find the article that CE Ed Harris wrote about it. He has no issues with it.
Attachment 196090
I'VE been loading the same set of 25 .410 brass shells for more than one year with smokeless, no problem.
You can try loads with red dot (magtech has a powder probably not available in America, named 250, it's very fast burning comparable to red dot and it's what's CBC have data for brass shells). You can also try International and Clay powders, maybe 231. I've been trying to compare American powders to what we have in Brazil and found many similarities in regular loads. Check page 2 of this pdf and look for the line PRESIDENTE, which means brass hull trademark. Look at grains (ex 12ga is 15.7 grains of 250 for 32 grams of shot -- 1 1/8oz)
Hope this helps. I also posted the handloader 266 article here in the forum somewhere, sometime ago.....
anyone have any data for 28 gauge?
I was all set to buy that and did some reading and found hidden away that it was all black powder loads, no smokeless.
It appears that the brass Magtech brass lives in a world of its own.
The only want to load it with smokeless is to break the shotgunner reloaders number one rule, no substitutions, ever. If you pick a recipe you follow it exactly.
It seems to me that if you use a certain amount of common sense.
And some practice experience reloading metallic cartridges. That some of that could be used. Like don't start with a max load.
If I see a recipe for a 12 ga with a given hull, wad column, payload and a charge of say 20 grains of Red Dot. It seems to me that it would be wise to reduce that load by 10% if I was putting it in a brass hull. It also seems to me that the hull is thinner, leaving more space, not less. Meaning lower pressures, not higher.
I would start with a standard load for ga, shot wise, not max. So probably a 1 oz load.
If I was concerned I might drop to a 7/8ths.
Primers it is hard to compare 209's to I believe it was large pistol the magtech brass recommends. I would not use magnum.
Then ideally you would shoot that round in a good solid modern gun. One that you trust, with good lock up.
I think the main thing is common sense, good reloading practices, lots of notes. Lots of testing. I know I have been slack about getting my testing done. So I have put the brass on hold until I have a chance to learn more.
The brass hulls are cool, love the look, the feel. Dropping a brass hull into an nice single or side by side. Well that is just cherry's on top ain't it?
Yes it would be nice to see someone publish something definitive. A solid recipe for this gauge, this hull, use this primer, these wads, this much powder of x, w, and z. And this much shot and do this to seal overshot cards and it should work.
But the liability issue is I believe huge.
Ghosthawk,
Wright, liability is probably the most probable reason for not having any load data for Magteck Shotshell Brass with smokeless powder. I started reloading with a Mauser 71/84 (commonly called Mauser 43) long time ago and Mauser claimed it was only to be loaded with black powder, which was the original load for it. CIL used to make ammo for it using smokeless powder, 21gr. of round flat flake powder as opposed to 77 FFG. I reloaded smokeless hundreds of times in it, starting low and working my way up, without issues BUT smokeless data could be found for it while these Magtech Brass don't refer to any smokeless data. I tried 14gr. of Unique in my 28ga Magtech brass with a nitro 24g OP wad, 5X1/8" felt wads, 3/4oz 7.5 shot and a 24g OS card before sealing it with Elm. glue. Terrible pattern, far less recoil than winchester or remington factory ammo. After looking for 24ga fiber wads and finding out they were back order everywhere, I went to a wine making outfit and bought wine bottle corks. Welded a drill bit to a 9/16" hollow punch and drilled myself 3/4" wads (wine bottle corks are 1 1/2" long so I cut them in half prior to punching the inside). Found it easier to hold the corks tight in a vise and run the hollow punch through them. Tight fit in the 28ga brass. Read somewhere 1/8" to 1/4" thick parafin cookies should be used to make a proper seal, probable between the OP nitro card and the 3/4" cork wad. All this takes testing and patience. Also realised the white glue on top of the OS card leaves a hard ridge inside the brass neck, hard to remove and kind of in the way every time you wanna insert a wad for the next reload.
I had to scratch all those ridges with a knife. I will try making a seal using the hot wax from a burning candle and see if it leaves less of a mess in the brass.
I was lucky in a couple of respects. I started with a box of .410's. I have an old Mossberg Bolt action .410 with screw on full choke. (remove it for straight cyl bore)
The brass shells worked well it it, better than .303 british with rims trimmed down.
I did not play with those a lot but I found a recipe for a powder I had and went from there.
From there I moved to 20 ga as I knew the brass would be easy enough to make a set of hand tools to reload. Really did not want to invest in the tools, hulls, wads, powders just to reload a few 20's. I have a H&R Single shot 20 that I will shoot them in. Like new, awesome condition. Does not look like it ever shot a box of shells.
Slowly I am growing my powder supply. I think for the .410 I used IMR 4227. Found a recipe and was careful.
For 12 ga I have an old pawn shop found Lyman easy loader that I have converted to use MEC charge bar and bushings for the powder side. Original shot side had the 1 oz bushing and that is fine for me. Most of what I load is either buckshot or slugs. Mostly I just wanted that ability to cast for my shotguns. Have some effective "varmint" rounds available. Can not believe what they sell buckshot loads for these days.
I think that most guys that figure it out just keep quiet. No one wants to take a chance on saying something and have some dufus blow himself or someone else up. And up losing everything because we ran our mouth.
Just not worth the risk.
And I will admit, I do NOT know what is going to happen when I pull the trigger on that 20 ga. And that may have something to do with why I have not tested them yet.
That and I don't have the need.
Mostly I have the need to try to be ready for whatever may come.
And that is a hard nut to crack when you don't know what you might have to deal with.
So I guess for me the brass shotshells are just a spare string for my bow. One more tool in the box, just in case.
I also wish they were not so expensive. Knew I should have bought some back in the 80's. Should have done a lot of things back then I am wishing now I had gotten done.
"I have found a better load for the brass 16 gauge shells. 20 grains of Trail Boss (DO NOT COMPRESS THIS POWDER, just gently seat the wads on top of the powder)"
How was the recoil? How full was the case?
Not very full. Recoil felt right, it was lighter than a field load but not by much. I went a few grains higher but it blew a donut in the pattern.
Thank you for reviving this thread, gondwana. I also can not follow the "no substitutions" rule as there is scant data to follow. However, I do like to be safe. I use a Crony on my Brass 16 gauge loads to make sure that velocities are in the ballpark of "similar" smokeless loads. Has anyone any velocity data for McCuiston's two loads described earlier in this thread?
Some comparisons between Magtech all-brass 2-1/2" shells and both smokeless and black powder loads assembled in Winchester AA compression-formed plastic shells:
Saraqueta AYA double gun with 26-inch barrels
AA case W209 primer, 19 grains Red Dot, .125 card over powder wad, 4/10" Cellotex fiber wad, .080 overshot card, one ounce US No. 7, aka British No. 6 shot, .100-.102" diameter, 270 pellets/oz.
1033 fps, 8 Sd
Magtech 2-1/2" brass, Winchester large pistol pmr. 3 drams, card and fiber wads as for AA case, weighed 82 grains Goex 2Fg 1024 fps, 28 Sd
3 drams, bulk measure, not weighed, Elephant 2Fg 919 fps, 30 Sd
3 drams, bulk measure, not weighed, Goex 3Fg 1193 fps, 11 Sd
Handloads Eley 2-1/2" factory primed paper cases, 3 drams bulk measure, card and fiber wads as described previously, 1-1/8 oz. No. 6, from Greener GP with 30" full choke
Elephant 2Fg 966 fps, 30 Sd
Goes 2Fg 1023 fps, 22 Sd
Goex Ctg.116 fps, 19 Sd
Hope this helps.