Late season buck with a 30xcb bullet

Didn't get much hunting in this season and yesterday was the final day for my area.
I had decided the morning hunt would be my last attempt.
Lots of wind blowing the last several days and this day was no different.

Late morning i gave a few calls on a doe estrus grunt followed by a buck grunt about every 15 min. for the next half hour or so.
Around 30 to 40 min. later the woods were full of deer running by my stand about 50 yds. out. Two does came by at a full run, followed by another doe that kept stopping and looking behind her.
I figured a buck might be following and it wasn't long before he showed up on the track of the does.

He was walking fast and wouldn't stop, so i picked the only hole in the brush i could poke a boolit through and waited for him.
When he was finally in the clear i put a 30xcb boolit @ 2,447 fps. through his lungs at about 50 yds.
He made a 50 yd. downhill run and piled up.

The boolit was ht'd to 27 bhn(yeah i know.. too hard and too fast) as that is where it shot the most accurate.
It left a golfball size exit in the offside shoulder.
It completely deflated both lungs and somehow cut the valves in the top of the heart too, though i thought the shot angle was wrong for that.
However i found a sapling on the far side of the deer that my boolit hit about 3 to 4" off the ground, so i had more downhill angle than i thought on the shot.

Had about a 3" spot in each shoulder that i thought was blood shot, but when i cleaned the meat up, i only had to ream about a half inch circle around the boolit holes and it cleaned right up.
Only lost about a half cup of meat if that much.
I think the small meplat helped out on that along with the bnh.

BTW, the rifle was a Zastava mauser(Ol Ben) .308 with a 12 twist bbl. 23.5"
Boolit was lubed with 3 coats of BLL.

Congratulations! A great end to the season!

Sounds like your bullet performed perfectly. Good Job!

Attaboy!

Well done!
Thank you for the report

i'll touch on the boolit meplat combo.
I have this mold [surprise]
but the smaller meplat combined with the velocity is what worked here.
I have been trying to explain the combination and think I done a fair job in Goodsteel's sticky.
but this is proof of the concept.
if 35 decides to put some pictures up it would be a good idea to compare them to other pictures of slower larger meplated boolit kills and compare the actual terminal affects.

I know it's sort of a one off kill but so are the others really.
this pretty much follows what I get with my faster 358 and small meplat boolits with a bhn of about 18-20.
versus trying to use a normal larger meplat at a higher speed, or a larger meplat at our normal 1900 fps speeds.

Congrat. Another example of never give up and hunt until the very last

Thanks everybody. It definitely was a shock to score in the final moments of the season.

Runfiverun i do have some phone pics of the damage.
This deer didn't leave much of a bloodtrail at all till the last 5 yds. as the lungs were completely deflated and the heart valves were cut just as cleanly as if a knife blade had done it.
He bled out internally into the body cavity The lungs just looked like folded dish rags.
The blood shot part of the shoulder was mostly trapped blood under the membrane over the meat...once that was removed, the blood washed right off. It looks much worse in the pics than it really was.
Except....the bacon meat over the lower part of the rib cage on the on side was completely blood shot all the way to the rear hams...the off side was clean.
The ribs were fine on the on side once the bacon meat was removed.

I think a soaking in salt water would have removed the blood from the onside bacon meat, but i didn't do it...again it looks worse in the pics than it really was.
All together, except for the bacon, i only lost maybe a half cup of meat on the shoulders.

Internal damage to the lungs however was massive. I'll try to post a few pics, and again, was very surprised at how well it all cleaned up compared to the pics.
As bad as i thought it looked originally, 98% of it was just blood trapped under the meat membrane and washed right off as i cleaned it.

35, it sounds as if you were shooting a fmj without the pointy nose. Appears it worked out well enough. Congratulations on getting the buck.

Attachment 186927Attachment 186927Attachment 186927
Okay, i don't know how i managed to get three pics of the gut pile on here.
The heart is at the upper left and shows the valves cut and a groove across the top of the heart.
Below that on the left are the lungs pretty well flattened out.

Attachment 186928
This is the entrance and despite the looks of it, once i peeled the membrane over the meat off, it rinsed off very well except for a very small spot.
The bacon meat over the lower ribs was bloodshot all the way to the hindquarters. Once that was removed the ribs were all in good shape.

In hindsight the way the shoulders actually cleaned up once rinsed, i should have tried to save that bacon meat, but did'nt.
I had a pic of the exit side, but it doesn't show up once i cropped the pic. It wasn't half as bloody as the entrance though.

This shot at 2447 fps. @ 50 yds. DID take a bit more work to clean up the meat than usual cast speed shots at say 2200 fps. and down, but as i said in a previous post, i only lost about a half a cup of meat between the entrance and exit holes despite what it looks like in the pics.
Internal damage to heart and lungs was massive though.
I wouldn't want to try that same shot at 50 yds. with a larger meplat boolit at that speed though.

Attachment 186929
This is the exit pic, maybe it will show it.

Nope, just the edge of it at lower left of pic.
Wasn't bad at all though.

That is great information. Do you think the boolit expanded any on its way through the animal as hard as you cast it? That is quite a bit of damage for a projectile that wouldn't deform and pencil through, I would think. That small of a meplat is impressive at this speed and yardage. Would you take this shot at 100 yards + with this same loading? You are giving us good food for thought. Thanks

Congratulations 35....great end to the season , and a great way to baptize the XCB. I have quite a collection of 35 molds going at the moment, and the more I read and see success's like this, I have decided that this upcoming season I will be doing all my hunting with cast this year.

Nice work

the BHN being high doesn't indicate the alloy's make up.
the onside/internal damage would indicate the boolit did indeed mushroom or upset at the nose section..
this is very close in terminal performance to some of my high velocity jacketed bullets.

Looks like it all worked out very well. Great Job !!

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Originally Posted by ChristopherO

That is great information. Do you think the boolit expanded any on its way through the animal as hard as you cast it? That is quite a bit of damage for a projectile that wouldn't deform and pencil through, I would think. That small of a meplat is impressive at this speed and yardage. Would you take this shot at 100 yards + with this same loading? You are giving us good food for thought. Thanks

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No doubt in my mind that boolit expanded a bit and held together with straight line penetration.
After seeing what happened at 50 yds., i wouldn't hesitate to use this load and boolit at 100 + yds.

Fiver nailed it i think. The bhn doesn't reflect the alloy makeup, which was just straight ww. Straight lino, or similar may well have penciled through with little to no damage.
At the speed i was using, the ww alloy was still malleable enough to hold together, not fragment, and give a "bit" of expansion even though no major bones were hit.

I pound tested a few with a 8 pound maul before trying hunting with them.
They flattened some with no fragmenting, also the same results when fired into hard packed red clay dirt and gravel @ 105 yds.

I've read a lot of horror stories about shooting cast fast at live game, so i made sure i had confidence in my "system" as much as possible, before taking a chance on just horribly wounding or "tearing up" a fine game animal.

35, good job. It appears based on the folowing post and responses to it, that your estimate of the pure WW alloy's hardness is a bit harder than actual numbers may reflect.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-weight-bullet

This might be why you saw the expansion indications, if your alloy was in the bn 9-12 range, actual.

When I read the hardness numbers and that it was WW, I figured your bn number was probably an estimate, no harm there. My alloy is 26-28 bn actual and is 20% lino and 10% chilled shot with 70% clean clip on WW, then cold water dropped. It is pretty hard stuff, my 358s would go through a deer like it was not there. I shot a big doe with a 200 RCBS FNGC out of my 357 Super Mag rifle at 2100 fps and the doe just hit the ground dead, with about a nickel size exit and entrance hole, by a 35 cal bullet.

I think that golf ball size hole by the 30 cal definitely indicates expansion. Good hunting load sounds like to me, not a thing wrong with that bullet or effect.
Ed

Sur-shot thanks. However, you may have misunderstood my bhn. The alloy was just ww but had been ht'd to 27bhn in a oven as per my first post.

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Originally Posted by 35Whelen

Congratulations 35....great end to the season , and a great way to baptize the XCB. I have quite a collection of 35 molds going at the moment, and the more I read and see success's like this, I have decided that this upcoming season I will be doing all my hunting with cast this year.

Nice work

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Lol, your talking my language now...i love the 35 bores.

I've hunted with cast only for 3 years now and don't quite know what took me so long to come around to it.
The previous 2 years were with a TC Encore in 35 whelen and i took 3 deer with it. Two were with a NOE 358009 clone and last season's deer was with a noe 360230 fp.
All of those loads were running 2200 fps. and all shots were about 40 yds.
Even at that close range, i ate right up to the hole on the whelen kills.

The plan for this year was 1 deer with the .308, then try for another with the whelen, but time ran out on me.
I don't have a thing against jacketed bullets, but i won't be going back to them...just no need to, plus i just plain enjoy shooting cast more.

Plenty of accuracy and performance, plus my bbls. should long outlast me...what's not to like lol?

Good luck with your cast hunting and shooting.

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Originally Posted by 35 shooter

Sur-shot thanks. However, you may have misunderstood my bhn. The alloy was just ww but had been ht'd to 27bhn in a oven as per my first post.

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that's about what I figured your alloy was.
I'm guessing 425ish for a full hour then into very cold water.

Close guess fiver.
Actually my little oven fluctuates a bit, but i do use an oven thermometer hanging in it.

I set it a 465* and as it comes on and off it will vary from 155* to 165*. Yes, i do heat for 1 hr., then dunk in cold tap water.
Dunking in ice water would probably get more bhn, but it shoots so well where it's at i haven't tried for more.

I was thinking of a 50/50 or # 2 alloy ht'd to a lesser bhn for enhanced expansion at longer ranges as the boolit slows down, but now i'm not so sure?
This alloy and bhn worked well, but of course , this was at close range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 35 shooter

Lol, your talking my language now...i love the 35 bores.

I've hunted with cast only for 3 years now and don't quite know what took me so long to come around to it.
The previous 2 years were with a TC Encore in 35 whelen and i took 3 deer with it. Two were with a NOE 358009 clone and last season's deer was with a noe 360230 fp.
All of those loads were running 2200 fps. and all shots were about 40 yds.
Even at that close range, i ate right up to the hole on the whelen kills.

The plan for this year was 1 deer with the .308, then try for another with the whelen, but time ran out on me.
I don't have a thing against jacketed bullets, but i won't be going back to them...just no need to, plus i just plain enjoy shooting cast more.

Plenty of accuracy and performance, plus my bbls. should long outlast me...what's not to like lol?

Good luck with your cast hunting and shooting.

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Thanks 35.......I am hoping for a good year too. There is a move afoot here in BC Canada to ban ALL lead for hunting, sport shoots, birds and target. Some knot head in politics must feel that the one or two rounds fired at big game every year is going to have a dramatic affect on our ecosystems !!!! I often wonder who elects these idiots?

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Originally Posted by 35 shooter

Fiver nailed it i think. The bhn doesn't reflect the alloy makeup, which was just straight ww. Straight lino, or similar may well have penciled through with little to no damage.
At the speed i was using, the ww alloy was still malleable enough to hold together, not fragment, and give a "bit" of expansion even though no major bones were hit.

I pound tested a few with a 8 pound maul before trying hunting with them.
They flattened some with no fragmenting, also the same results when fired into hard packed red clay dirt and gravel @ 105 yds.

I've read a lot of horror stories about shooting cast fast at live game, so i made sure i had confidence in my "system" as much as possible, before taking a chance on just horribly wounding or "tearing up" a fine game animal.

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Thanks for the clarification. My next project is to get an old 35 Whelen shooting cast. Anything I can read on the subject has my attention and appreciation.
I've cast piles of pure lead Muzzleloader slugs in years past, some Lyman #2 boolits for a 30 caliber and just have recently been toying with the different alloy configurations and learning how they react when hitting meat and bone. For the pb lee 405 rfn in the 4570 they water drop so hard that 10 water jugs at 20 yards barely contains one. It comes out of the water nearly ready to reload. The same allow with the Accurate 460-405gc destroys 4 water jugs and has picture perfect deformation when allowed to air cool instead of water dropping. Still so much I need to learn in this game. So far the 460-405gc has killed two deer effectively but not with massive exterior or internal damage, plenty enough to adequately do the job, though.

From what I am gathering a WFN should stay within 2,200 fps or less, whereas a more streamlined boolit with a smaller meplat can be ramped up with the right alloy and still expand and kill effectively. Good information to know.

CristopherO,

From my limited experience with the 35's and up in cal. and everything i've read, those cal. just don't need much, if any, expansion.
They're already putting a 3/8" to 1/2" hole in whatever it hits...add a flat point up front, and you deliver a lot of "shock" on impact just as it is.
No or very little ruined meat either.

At 2200 fps. and a wide flat point from my whelen results in no meat loss @ 27 bhn even on close 40 yd. shots.
I wouldn't worry about 2400 fps. with it either too much.

However, the 30xcb has a very small meplat and did expand a bit at @ 27 bhn evidently. That's what i meant when i said i wouldn't want a bigger meplat @ 2400, fps. on the end of that one.
My whelen boolits are a totally different design and just don't expand, or very little at the same bhn.

What i want test for now is what the small meplat is doing once it slows down to 1900, or 2000 fps...250 to 300 yds?
I'll be doing that over the spring and summer in some kind of test medium.
Those tests will tell me if i need to reduce bhn(most likely), or even change alloy(more likely).
I think 50/50 or #2alloy ht'd would probably be perfect for what i want from this boolit provided accuracy is maintained.

that's why I mentioned the final BHN is misleading.
the alloy's internal matrix will react differently at different velocity's and depending on what it hit's.
the point at the tip also affects how much that happens.

the 45-70 above made from 50-50 alloy at 1600 fps will punch a shoulder and the other shoulder no problem.
run it up to 1800 fps and you'll see nearly the same results through the ribs.
but you'll have some tore up meat on the shoulder shot.

runfiverun,

Since you also have the xcb boolit mould and i'm quite sure have much more experience with different alloys than me....what speed would you estimate the nose on my alloy and bhn to stop expanding at on deer size game, if you had to guess?

I guess another question would be what bhn would be the best compromise for my ww at short to longer ranges?

don't fall into the BHN trap.
the alloy is still what it is when it gets there.
the meplat is what forces the alloy back onto itself to disrupt the integrity of the nose shape.
think about it in terms like that and what happens becomes clearer.

your 2400+ fps would give you about 4" of drop at 200 yds and would be about as far as I would want to go with your combination.
I'm guessing at the remaining velocity being in the 2200 fps area at that range.
you need the speed.
but I wouldn't hesitate to step the load out a bit and be confident in it working.

Thanks Fiver,

That's very close to what i had estimated.
I intend to have a lot of fun testing it out at longer ranges this summer, along with different alloys, catch some boolits and see what happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by runfiverun

the BHN being high doesn't indicate the alloy's make up.
the onside/internal damage would indicate the boolit did indeed mushroom or upset at the nose section..
this is very close in terminal performance to some of my high velocity jacketed bullets.

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Ditto. This looks just like the results I got this year on two whitetails with 30 call 150 gr HDY Interlock at ~2700fps from my '06. Both deer were DRT, one was about 80 yards and the second was ~120. While skinning out the shoulders on the second one you could hear the body cavity sucking air every time I moved the front leg.

Congrats on doing it with cast!

Thanks taco650,

I was very impressed with the performance of the .308 and am already working with the NOE 188 Hunter, while i continue to work with the 30xcb boolit too.