BAC Lube

Those of you that cast your own bullets for bullseye use... just wondering what you use for lube and how well satisfied you are with it.

I've been using "BAC" from White Label Lube on 148gr wadcutters that I cast from scrap wheelweight. I will usually add a pound or two of linotype to each 20 pound pot in an effort to harden it up a little bit more. I size to .358" in a SAECO lubrisizer.

My normal load is 3.1gr W-231 or HP-38. Have never chronographed this load so don't know the exact speed but it is pretty comfortable in both my S&W Model 52-2 and S&W K-38.... certainly not a hot load at all. I still note some light leading in the barrel after 150 rounds or so. Easy enough to remove with a bit of Chore Boy copper scrub pad on a bronze brush.

Just wondering if there might be a better option for lube.

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/

Hard to beat BAC for what you're doing.

If you have ANY lead in the barrel after a few sessions with cast I would say you have "Smithitis", a condition where the cylinder throats are undersized slightly and the forcing cone was in fact cut with a rusty railroad spike. You might also have a restriction at the beginning of the lands due to barrel thread crush.

I would check the above for both guns, ream the cylinder throats if necessary, firelap the restriction out of the barrels, polish the forcing cones (retaining whatever angle they already have), and use the ww straight, they are plenty hard without the lino, just add a little tin for castability.

But as far as lube goes, that should be the last thing you change unless you're using garbage for lube, and you certainly aren't.

Gear

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Originally Posted by Evil Dog

Those of you that cast your own bullets for bullseye use... just wondering what you use for lube and how well satisfied you are with it.

I've been using "BAC" from White Label Lube on 148gr wadcutters that I cast from scrap wheelweight. I will usually add a pound or two of linotype to each 20 pound pot in an effort to harden it up a little bit more. I size to .358" in a SAECO lubrisizer.

My normal load is 3.1gr W-231 or HP-38. Have never chronographed this load so don't know the exact speed but it is pretty comfortable in both my S&W Model 52-2 and S&W K-38.... certainly not a hot load at all. I still note some light leading in the barrel after 150 rounds or so. Easy enough to remove with a bit of Chore Boy copper scrub pad on a bronze brush.

Just wondering if there might be a better option for lube.

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/

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If you're leading, it's not likely the fault of BAC. Work out your boolit to barrel/chamber fit and use straight WW metal or even WW metal alloyed with Pb. If you develop mold cavity fill-out issues with the more malleable alloy, turn up the thermostat to somewhere in the 750F to 800F neighborhood.

MJ

For the loads your're using, the alloy could be really soft, so there is no need for the lino. It could be that you're sizing too small, and blowby is causing the leading.

Check your "as cast" bullet diameter, make up a few dummy rounds, and see if they'll chamber. If they do, don't size them. You should be able to use a tumble lube like Lee Liquid Alox and not have any leading.

If you need to size them, size to the largest diameter that will chamber without resistance.

Evil Dog, come back and thank the nice gentlemen;) they just saved you years of fustration and have passed knowledge garnered from personal experiences.
One thing I have trouble understanding and maybe I do myself: People come on and ask for info then never return to say "thanks, I tried what you suggested and I am grateful for your sharing of knowledge".
I personally know everything about casting[smilie=1:, but every now and then I come and read posts before the start of my work day; and learn new and useful things from new and old casters here. ED not coming down on you but a general rant for every reader of this post and one I wil probably paste and copy in other messages.

I can`t begin to put a number on how many Lyman 358459 wadcutters I cast up out of straight ww. I used Hodgon alox lube until I couldn`t find it anymore, then I used about any alox type lube that I found. I used the same powders and charge as you and all this time - no leading! My S&W 14 was more accurate than I was is the excuse I used when I threw a "snow bird" on my target. The previous owner of the 14 did ream the cylinders for uniformity and obviously it worked well. All this shooting has been done over the last 30 odd years and I still use the same load combo I mentioned.Robert

I fired thousands of Speer 148 gr HBWC downrange while a police firearms instructor both in training and shooting PPC matches. You don't need to be putting Linotype in your alloy. It makes it too hard and is most likely the cause of your leading. A BHN of 9 or so is good enough. You might need a little tin put in for mold fill out but that is it. Your cylinder should be checked for correct dimensions. I would also throat the revolver to 11 degrees, chamfer the cylinders. Your BAC lube is one of the best and not the problem. I would be willing to bet that for your shooting style you will not be able to find a better lube.

I would check the cylinder throats on the revolver, I have seen S&W's with abnormally large throats and smaller than groove dia. throats. Like Forest Gump says "you never know what your gona get". IMHO your just wasting your linotype on that load, but they probably cast pretty with the added tin. I would use just WW alloy or even alloy it with pure if you have it as one other poster said. I have used BAC for years now and it is excellent lube at a price that can't be beat, I'm not sure that you could make it yourself and save any money.

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Originally Posted by Balade41

Evil Dog, come back and thank the nice gentlemen;) they just saved you years of fustration and have passed knowledge garnered from personal experiences.
One thing I have trouble understanding and maybe I do myself: People come on and ask for info then never return to say "thanks, I tried what you suggested and I am grateful for your sharing of knowledge".
I personally know everything about casting[smilie=1:, but every now and then I come and read posts before the start of my work day; and learn new and useful things from new and old casters here. ED not coming down on you but a general rant for every reader of this post and one I wil probably paste and copy in other messages.

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Pardon me for being a bit sarcastic here Mr Balade but you're right. I made my original post at 9:19 PM and there were replies at 9:42, 11:59 and 3:17 AM. Then your reminder at 5:46 AM. Obviously I should have stayed up all night watching this site rather than going to bed at 9:30 PM... I totally apologize.

Seriously though, I really do appreciate this site and several others that I visit quite often (a half dozen or more times daily). The amount of good well thought out advice offered is totally awesome. My thanks to you all.

You're welcome.

At least we all agree that:

1) You don't need the lino, just use clip-on WW + tin
2) Your guns probably have dimensional issues and rough forcing cones
3) BAC is plenty good for your application.

Gear

umm u didnt state if plain based or hollow based ( yup it can make a difference) for my thoughts i have to wonder if what ur seeing mite be more of an antimonial wash as oppsed to leading ( it is possible - especially the way u describe removing it ) i have to agree that 38 low velocity target loads shouldnt lead with a very soft alloy or a hard alloy properly sized n some kinda lube , that last isnt very critical for what ur doing tho .......

These are bevel base button nose wadcutters (Lyman # 358091). They are loaded backwards into the cartridge case so that they will be flush with the case mouth rather than really set back into the case. This is what they look like if loaded with the button nose facing forward. This is NOT the way I load them though... what is the actual base of the bullet is loaded flush with the case mouth.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...r/P4280014.jpg

They do seem to group quite well when loaded backwards... even better then when loaded with the button nose facing forward. They can not stick out beyond the case mouth though or they will not fit into a Model 52 magazine.

Just don't have a double ended wadcutter mold yet.

For hollow base wadcutters I use the swaged ones from Precision Delta.... 3.1gr W-231 or HP-38 and flush seated in the normal manner.

ahhhh now he throws in the model 52 part lolz ,i dont have one my buddy however does , he told me one day that low velocity only and for some reason hollow bases work best ( i'm guessing that the HB swells easily enough to seal no matter the bore size ,i'm still gonna go with the possibility of the antimony washing off a bit ,for what the gun was designed for u should even be able to use rooster jacket with success ( and everyone will pretty much agree that that's a low velocity lube anyways ) one of my manuals has a section or data just for this gun ..let me look ....it was the speer #11 they also list 3.2 as max for the hp38 and 3.3 max in the ww231 .......of course the start isnt much lower than the max ...( .3 of a grain ) but ...they also only used a hollow based wadcutter , IMHO a flat based one would raise the pressure a wee bit as well as not expand to seal the bore as good ending with yup leading ,try cutting ur charge down to where it just barely functions the action and then work up a wee bit ( i'd still check to make sure ur seating/crimping isnt also sizing down even further )

Yes, I also load with 148gr hollow base wadcutters from Precision Delta. I save those for 50 yard slow fire though as they cost a lot more than using the one's that I cast and lube myself.... Senior Citizen on a Fixed Income and all that sort of thing. If shooting in a NRA sanctified match then I will use the hollow base wadcutters for the entire thing.

The bass-akwards loaded bevel base wadcutters are used for practice and the 25 yard timed and rapid fire phases. I also use them in my 1954 vintage K-38 for "Steel Challenge" matches.... nothing like a good ol' bunny fart load when it comes to making steel go "tink". I keep 120gr RN bullets loaded in the speed loaders though as they go in a heck of a lot easier than wadcutters when I'm in a bit of a hurry.

What leading that remains after a couple hundred rounds is easy enough to remove. Just a plain ol' bronze brush will take it out in 25 or 30 strokes... (I use the rifle length brush, not the pistol length). I've found that by adding a few copper stands from a Chore Boy brand copper scrub thing that it takes what leading there is out a heck of a lot faster. Had one of those Lewis Lead Removers sometime in the distant past but haven't seen it in years. Chore Boy pads are a lot less expensive and work quite well.

Interesting that the Speer #11 manual should list 3.2 as max for HP-38 and 3.3 max for W-231. Granted that's only 1/10th grain difference but they are actually the same powder !!! Come from the same hopper, just put into different containers.

I load the Lyman 35891 button out, seated to the last groove near the nose. BAC or liquid alox.
BAC for everything else. Been in my lubrisizer for several years now. I love it,

Shiloh

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Originally Posted by Evil Dog

Interesting that the Speer #11 manual should list 3.2 as max for HP-38 and 3.3 max for W-231. Granted that's only 1/10th grain difference but they are actually the same powder !!! Come from the same hopper, just put into different containers.

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there may of been manufacturer's differences years ago , granted prolly supplied by st.marks but ...every lot of powder will be different from the next one it's just the nature of the beast , i oft hear that my fav rifle powder ( h414) is the same exact thing as ww760 ....ummm ok then why did my best load's group open up when i loaded the exact same charge of ww760 ???? i'll admit that today they mite indeed be from the same hopper with no different man.'s additive but when i first started out loading and since - especially when doing research as to what powder is best for many of my barrels in the older manuals different load weights of ww 760 and h414 gave equal pressure .....today since hodgdon owns both they list identical ....ditto with h110 and 296 yet it hasnt always been so as glancing thru old manuals (with pressure and velocities listed) show that often they are close but in the past never were the same [shrugz] ye olde caveat applies "when changing any component of a known load reduce charge weight and work safely back up " btw ? my first foray into ummm real pistol reloading was a factory recipe followed to the letter -even factory primed cases all fresh...guess what ? way too hot ,yet the powder was listed as ww296 ....blew primers....very hard extraction ,was also listed as use exactly as shown, i've learned alot since then ,including at the time the same charge weight of h110 was hot but didnt blow primers ,
back to the subject at hand ....every bullseye shooting HB wadcutter i have seen is some really really soft alloy ( if it is even alloy lolz ) if u mentioned it i missed it does ur premade's lead the same way ? if not i'm still going to believe it's a sizing issue

Going to have to wait until early July on that one.... won't be at another NRA sanctioned match until the 11th. Will be firing nothing but the Precision Delta hollow base wadcutters there... 90 rounds so any tendency to lead using their bullets should show.

I've used BAC ever since I started casting my own. Excellent for pistol as well as gas-checked rifle loads upto 2200fps.

Bruce

I think i saw it mentioned but it is worth a repeat-- if your alloy is too hard for that low velocity it can and will lead-- bac is certainly good lube--ac ww or range lead with a little tin should be good to go -- so that leaves the fit issues --

HOLY COW!!!!! Evil, do you think you're using enough crimp??????:groner:

If you apply any more it will practically seal the case! I think that could be a big part of your problem, squeezing the boolits down as they're fired. It takes a lot of pressure to break a crimp like that, why don't you pull a few of those (assuming you have a kinetic puller) and mic them to see if they're getting skinny on the way out.

Fryboy: He mentioned Model 52-2 in the original post.

Gear

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Originally Posted by GLynn41

I think i saw it mentioned but it is worth a repeat-- if your alloy is too hard for that low velocity it can and will lead-- bac is certainly good lube--ac ww or range lead with a little tin should be good to go -- so that leaves the fit issues --

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Glynn, I have to disagree on the hard boolit statement. IME they work very, very well, especially at long ranges (100+ yards with pistol) IF, and that's a big IF, the gun is properly dimensioned AND the boolits, like you said, FIT. If they don't fit, it doesn't matter how hard they are, leading will still occur. I didn't feel like hard alloy is all that desireable for the downrange application here, and moderate alloys give a bigger "fudge factor", so I DO agree with your recommendation, just not the general statement.

Gear

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Originally Posted by geargnasher

HOLY COW!!!!! Evil, do you think you're using enough crimp??????:groner:

Gear

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Actually I have backed off a goodly bit on that crimp. My idea at the time was to round over the case mouth somewhat thinking that it might feed a bit easier. Not using anywhere that severe of a crimp any more.

This is what it looks like now.... that bevel base bullet loaded bass-akwards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...r/P6160013.jpg

I use BAC at 2400 ft./s in 223 Remington without leading problems. Your problem lies elsewhere...

Hay gear-- not a problem-- you said it better than I dd-- if fit is good hardness not a problem normally -- if fit is so so softer will help- it still comes down to fit-- I have a couple of firends that use Leadheads-- which are reasonable bullets -- but very hard -- one likes them at 950 or1000 and he will tell me he can hear the lead as it falls out when he has to clean his gun-- I never could understand -- but I realize now it is likely fit and hardness- or too hard to at that velocity for the fit---i told him to speed them up a little with his 2400 but if they lead at 950 (he was using blue dot) they will be worse --his six gun is a 629-- so he is and always will be a cast plinker- because of the leading issue -- he is missing a lot

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Originally Posted by Evil Dog

Actually I have backed off a goodly bit on that crimp. My idea at the time was to round over the case mouth somewhat thinking that it might feed a bit easier. Not using anywhere that severe of a crimp any more.

This is what it looks like now.... that bevel base bullet loaded bass-akwards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...r/P6160013.jpg

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That looks better! Pictures are worth a thousand words sometimes, we can assume nothing when trying to troubleshoot.

Gear

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Originally Posted by bruce drake

I've used BAC ever since I started casting my own. Excellent for pistol as well as gas-checked rifle loads upto 2200fps.

Bruce

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Depending on your launch device, BAC is good for a bit more than 2200fps.

MJ

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Originally Posted by Marlin Junky

Depending on your launch device, BAC is good for a bit more than 2200fps.

MJ

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I'm sure it probably is, but 2200 is the max I've shot my boolits and I wanted to put out verified data.

Bruce

Hmm... softer lead? I cast a lot of round ball for muzzleloading arms so have a fairly good supply of dead soft lead. I'm wondering if casting some of the double ended wadcutters using this buttery soft lead might work? I'm sure that more than just a couple have tried it. Did it work well or just a waste of time? These would be for use only in my Model 52.

Softer lead might work for gallery loads with next to no crimp and an oversized expander die, part of the problem of too soft is the boolit making it into and out of the case without getting squeezed down too small for the bore.

Gear

+1 for gearnasher. If you decide to try pure Pb, make sure seating doesn't size them down. Don't ask me how I know.

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Originally Posted by GLynn41

I think i saw it mentioned but it is worth a repeat-- if your alloy is too hard for that low velocity it can and will lead--

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I'll +1 this for sure.

For me, there is only one .38 Special 148DELWC load, and that is 2.8 grains of Bullseye. But that's just me. It's been probably twenty years since I've fired a Model 52--and you DO have me a bit on the "envy factor." That is a VERY fun gun to shoot and a fine firearm to boot.

My experience with wadcutters has been that softer works better than harder. With so much bearing surface, every time I've tried to "harden" the boolit--either by adding lino/mono or water dropping or heat-treating or additions to the alloy--I've sacrificed accuracy and picked up some light to mile leading, no matter what lube I used.

These days, I just use straight WW and let them air-cool. I run them through my lubesizer and use my homemade lube formula, only lubing one groove, and have no problems. (Tried lubing all three grooves one time and my accuracy went to Hades in a handbasket.)

:coffee:

I take it you were using the Lyman mold... it's the only one I can think of right off hand that has 3 grooves. I'm using the RCBS version that has 4 smaller grooves. Might have to try just lubing a couple of the grooves and see what happens.

One more thing to try, ED, and it could be an ejumacashun, is use an inertial-type bullet puller and pull one of your loaded boolits, then carefully mic them. You might be surprised the size they actually are coming back out of the case.

Gear