38-55 reloading help

So I got myself a Winchester 1885 high wall traditional hunter in 38-55. I tried to find some gas check molds, but I only found a couple, the RCBS or Lyman 264grn GC. I don't have anything fancy and tumble lube my bullets with an LLA/Mineral spirits mix. Then GC them on the Less sizer. But Lee doesn't make a sizer in the cal, .358 to .401 jump. So I went with a 250grn plain base bullet mold. I guess this leaves me with two questions, what's my general velocity threshold with the plain base bullet, ACWW, and LLA, and did I handicap myself not finding a way to do a gas check in the 38-55? I'm assuming I can get 1300-1400fps and that speed will do anything I need, but some of those 1700fps loads look fun.

Go to the NOE mold website. They have several molds, their own sizing setup similar to the lee with plenty size choices. Another choice is Accurate Molds, I use his 38-250B mold in a plain based version. He will make the mold to suit your alloy.

I run the Accurate 38-250D plain base in mine with great success.

Sounds like I didn't completely hose myself with plain base. I was worried this round needed GCs. What speeds are you getting with the plain base, I'm hearing about 1200-1300 with IMR 4227, but other than a few web pages, I'm unable to find actual load data with that powder. Am I losing a lot by not being able to push some of those 1700fps loads with jacketed or GC for hunting purposes?

1600+ with 22 grains of IMR4198.

I found the Lee bullet to be a pretty good shooter. I don't size them, they come out about .381.

My rifle seems to have a big throat. Shot badly until I got a set of the RCBS cowboy dies with a proper expander, made a world of difference.

You really need to slug the bore, some of those Lyman and RCBS designs come out at .376".

Another vote for the Accurate 38-250B.

My rifle will group under an inch at 55yd with them.

24gn of H4198 gets 1475fps in my 24" barrel.
25gn of H4198 nets 1535fps
26gn of H4198 nets 1595fps

I'm loading for a Jess re-bored M336 20" carbine. I've settled on 3 loads, one for target/plinking, and two for hunting, depending on how hard I want to hit the animal. All use the same 38-250B bullet, Winds Wonder Wax lube mostly or PC coated to make it easy to tell the hunting loads from the target.
10 gr Unique or Universal for target/plinking= 1225 fps in my rifle
21 gr H4198 with a tuft of dacron filler for timber hunting = 1400 fps
32 gr 3031 for a hard hitting 1600 fps. This one I have been PC coating since it is a plain based bullet.
I haven't seen a hint of leading with any of these loads.
I've killed deer with both of the hunting loads. neither load was slowed much by a broadside shot. These things just keep on sailing. The 1600 fps load was real impressive, the first time I use it the deer was stumbling by the 3rd jump and went less than 30 yards. That big meplat caused some bloodshot but not as much as a high velocity jacketed bullet.
As to your queston on velocity, it's been proven that with cast bullets you start loosing penetration on the top side of 1600 fps, the lead upsets and flakes off to such an extent that penetration is hindered. The black powder velocities that made the reputation for these old cartridges was around 13-1400 fps.

Ole 270, what size are your boolits? I have a JES/94 Win. I use the same low and high loads as you. I need some 4198.

I size .377 with the NOE system. Jes said it would probably do better with .376, but after a quick trial with both I just stuck with the .377. I've said it before, but this Marlin has been the easiest load workup of anything I've ever tried. It just seems to like everything.
Right now I've got a Skinner Express rear peep with a fiber optic front on the rifle(poor eyes). With the low end load above zeroed at 50 yards to the center of the front "bead", the 4198 load (1400fps) is good with a 6 o'clock hold at the same distance. It's been quite a while since I've tested it, but I remember it as using the center of the bead for 100 yard hits with that load. With the heavier 1600 fps load I have to change the sights. You do need some 4198, that load is about the best combo of accuracy and useful power I've found in my short barrel.

I bought a Traditional Hunter .38-55 not long after they were introduced, about twenty years ago. I called Browning about these rifles and was told by an engineer that groove diameter should be .379". Using the largest diameter bullet that will chamber has always worked well for me, but slug the bore if you wish. I've tried five bullets in my rifle, but the Lyman #375449 is my favorite. Whether or not the current moulds still cast large enough to work well, I don't know. I'm unfamiliar with NOE moulds but they may indeed be excellent.

I've driven the Lyman bullet to over 1700 fps with good accuracy using Reloder 7, but that was likely a maximum load. My favorite .38-55 powder is H4895 but SR4759, IMR4198, and Reloder 7 have all worked well and I'm sure there are a few others that would do the same.

There's a mediocre writeup on the .38-55 Traditional Hunter and cast bullets in HANDLOADER #210 (April 2001).

thanks for the help guys, I'm going to try this lee mold, some LLA, and see if about 1400fps will give me a good load to start with.

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I tried to find some gas check molds, but I only found a couple, the RCBS or Lyman 264grn GC.

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Rule of thumb: GC bullets only needed if velocity exceeds 1800 fps

Like lotech, I favor the LYMAN #375449. Cast of straight Linotype, bullets drop from my 35yr old mold at .381dia. I set gas checks, size .380 and Lube in an old LYMAN 450. Use IMR3031, tried a load suggested by old Mr. Joe Penny of PENNY'S Casting ( a Grand Old Gentleman of the old School, stepped in after my DAD passed, to teach me the things I've forgotten again after 10yrs of no casting, he sadly has passed too ).
Tried the load he suggested over open sights from the bench. First 3 rounds went 1 3/4" , 5 rounds opened up the group to 2". Fitted a tang sight to it and a fold down rear sight. Closed the groups down to 1 1/2" for 3 shots.
That first load was almost at max for a 260gr slug over IMR3031. Tried dropping down 2grs, accuracy went DOWN. so I stuck with the original max load. Still shooting it 30+ years later. No leading.

Depending on your needs, such as, hunting, target, or competition, this will determine the type of bullet. I use an Accurate 38-250T, which is a PB boolit, for a hunting round. I cast with COWW and a dash of pure lead for a BHN of 9-12. I use Pat Marlins PB Checkmaker for 38-55 Win. and size them to .381 because my original Marlin 1881 slugs at .379". I also use a 50/50 bees wax and NGLI lube. These get pushed out by 12.9 gr Trail Boss for approximately 1300 fps. I can't currently chronograph the load because the range I belong to currently won't let us use them. So the information is coming from QuickLoad data. Hope this helps. Good luck and stay safe!

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Originally Posted by John Boy

Rule of thumb: GC bullets only needed if velocity exceeds 1800 fps

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ahh, I thought it was closer to 1200fps.

I have a chiappa mini sharps in 38-55 haven't slugged the bore to get true bore diameter. I use the Lee 379-255- FN sized thru a Lee .379 sizer die. With a load of 20.0 grs of H4198 ( gun only weights 5.5 lbs and I have a bad shoulder) I can shot ragged holes at 65 yrds on my good days.

Lee will custom make any size lube sizer die you want for not that much more than a standard set. I don't remember the cost and I know there wait time will very but I had mine within three weeks.

I generally tumble lube, but they said 38 dollars for a custom sizer/check seater. I'm going to shoot the 379s as cast if able, but if I end up needing gas checks (I doubt I will at this point), Lee is a good option.

Wolfdog,
Forget slugging the barrel, do a pound cast of the throat instead. Or, just use a bullet big enough that if you ink the sides with a sharpie the ink will be scraped away upon chambering.
Don't worry about the bullet being larger than the groove diameter it will size down upon firing. Lead alloy bullets size down like that easily and commonly. If you want best accuracy follow these directions. If the bullet is smaller than the throat it will often enter the bore minutely canted and accuracy goes to pot. Good Luck
Brodie

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Originally Posted by Old Coot

Wolfdog,
Forget slugging the barrel, do a pound cast of the throat instead. Or, just use a bullet big enough that if you ink the sides with a sharpie the ink will be scraped away upon chambering.
Don't worry about the bullet being larger than the groove diameter it will size down upon firing. Lead alloy bullets size down like that easily and commonly. If you want best accuracy follow these directions. If the bullet is smaller than the throat it will often enter the bore minutely canted and accuracy goes to pot. Good Luck
Brodie

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Ty sir, I cast for 35rem, .357mag, 38spl, 45-70 and 380acp. But generally these guns fall into velocity categories where GC or non GC are obvious. It's this 1700fps stuff where I'm just unsure if I made a mistake going plain base. From most of what I read, the Lee .279 and these guns get along well, so that's my first stop.

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Originally Posted by wolfdog

I generally tumble lube, but they said 38 dollars for a custom sizer/check seater. I'm going to shoot the 379s as cast if able, but if I end up needing gas checks (I doubt I will at this point), Lee is a good option.

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The Lee 379250F that I use is bevel base; the bullets won't accept gas checks.

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Originally Posted by Texas by God

The Lee 3792555F that I use is bevel base; the bullets won't accept gas checks.

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I know, I'm saying that if I have to switch molds I will, but given what everyone is saying a plain base bullet may be fine.

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Originally Posted by Kylongrifle32

I have a chiappa mini sharps in 38-55 haven't slugged the bore to get true bore diameter. I use the Lee 379-255- FN sized thru a Lee .379 sizer die. With a load of 20.0 grs of H4198 ( gun only weights 5.5 lbs and I have a bad shoulder) I can shot ragged holes at 65 yrds on my good days.

Lee will custom make any size lube sizer die you want for not that much more than a standard set. I don't remember the cost and I know there wait time will very but I had mine within three weeks.

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The only problem is that you still have to lube that bullet with BP lube or smokeless lube, you're better off with a lube sizer dedicated to BP lube, I have 2 set aside for BP a RCBS and a STAR

If you don't have a lube die you can certainly pan lube, or you could get some powder for coating from Smoke4320 and coat.

Todd

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Originally Posted by craneman

If you don't have a lube die you can certainly pan lube, or you could get some powder for coating from Smoke4320 and coat.

Todd

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I don't have a lube die, I've been tumble lubing in LLA for a few years now, seems to work pretty well.