I believe the cast lead rifle boolit is the most effective projectile in the world.

I made this statement in the presence of a client of mine, and I saw him give me a "you cant be serious" look. I smiled and tried to explain to him the superior vertues of the cast lead boolit, but I think the following picture had a bigger effect.
I have been studying feverishly for a year, trying to see how fast I can push an air cooled WW/pure lead alloy boolit with enough accuracy for hunting with. I was able to achieve sub MOA at 100 yards with my custom built 358 Win and a RCBS 35-200-FN going just proud of 2K FPS. (my goal is 2400, sub MOA but thats just to say I did it)
Anyway, an air cooled WW/pure boolit is pretty soft, and going 2050 fps makes for a pretty darn destructive combo. If anybody is thinking about shooting cast lead in your rifle, and wondering if the castlead boolt can hang with those new wiz-bang, HP, ballistic tipped, who's ya momma, new fangled jacketed bullets........
Ahem, I can say unreservedly, "they do" and at much less speed.
Observe the amazing damage inflicted on this small doe, 75 yards distant:
Attachment 54481
I actually was a little disappointed at the amount of destruction that the boolit caused. I believe I may harden my alloy just a smidgen so as to not ruin as much meat, but nevertheless this load will anchor anything I shoot with it.
The point is, that this is simply a 50/50 cast boolit that had a Hornady gas check on the base, lubed with FWFL. For a copper jacketed bullet to achieve this level of effectiveness, they have to be engineered very very well, and be pushed much much faster than 2000 fps. This is simply a more efficient answer all the way around.

That amount of damage came from a solid? NOT a HP cast boolit? Thats impressively NASTY!

I have that same mold for my .35 Remington and I'm happy with it so far.
Whats your load data for your .358 Winny?

Waksupi's signature:

"The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid."

John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

That looks remarkably familiar! I got that level of performance from my 8mm Mauser this year on a yearling doe with the Lee 8mm Karabiner boolit. (237gr big flat meplat) Mine were cast very soft. 50/50 WW and Pure air cooled. Velocity was in the 1800fps range. Fist sized hole for real. I could not agree with your statement more, now that I have seen it for myself in the field.

It has been my experience that a large majority of people who "hunt" deer, do so with the excuse to get away from the wife so as to get drunk every day of the hunt. Getting the deer the first day, set them up for a week of drunkenness. And if the deer can be killed at a distance less than a 1/4 mile it only requires a bullet that will preform up to a quarter mile every time. (Read hi-tech jacketed bullets.)
Almost all of the people I know who hunt deer with cast boolits know the advantages and the disadvantages of cast boolits.
The disadvantages are few. Killing a deer at over 200 yds. with cast lead boolits can be iffy at times.
Gas checks, hard/soft lead, velocity and hollow point boolits all play a factor and all these factors need to be considered when using cast boolits.
The rewards are many, knowing that you have an accurate tested load that you developed, cast and loaded yourself, is very satisfying.
The only disadvantages that I see is, you have to be a more skilled "Hunter" in that you have to stalk and get close to your prey.

Good shooting and may you always be successful.

Hickory

Tim, is that the boolit that tumbles? If it is, I would quite frankly call that kind of damage boolit failure. I have NEVER had that kind of destruction with a cast boolit.

TIM, Is that the exit hole? Did you hit bone going in and out? Like Waksupi I have never had that much meat damage with my boolits and my alloy is 55% lead/ 45% ww.

Larry

Good proof for the reaction of speed/alloy....if you are shooting things you wanna eat.....the faster you go the tougher your mallable alloy needs to be.


WOW......you need to slow your current alloy down, or add some STUFF to make a new alloy. To me that level of destruction is unnacceptable.....but that is me. I thought my 7TCU was a bit too destructive on that buck I shot this year, but damn man that is wicked. I too would call that boolit failure.

Once upon a time I used a 358156HP in my DanWesson 357 @1300fps...the boolit was too soft to be hollopointed and I drove it too fast......it still did not detonate like that and yet I deemed it a failure on my end due to alloy choice.....my fault.

WOW...simply wow...I would be dissapointed, and looking for a new alloy if I had a picture like that to post.

....and people think they need to HP their rifle rounds with cast......if you are anywhere over 1600-1800fps I KNOW THAT TO BE FALSE. That is why I am not a hp fan in mid speed rifle/pistols....it simply is not needed and I do not know how many times people have to be beaten with the big bat o' truth to get it. Give me a decent meplate, the right alloy for the speed it is being driven anyday...give me a HP rifle mould and I will sell it to a varmint hunter.

Holy holy holy mother of God. Something is not right there. I've used a 311290 ACWW at 2K in a .30-06 on deer. Let's just say my results were drastically different despite very similar ballistics, more akin to a nosler partition shedding it's front half and then driving the boolit shank through 24" of animal.

Is that the entrance or exit wound?

I think water quenching the boolits to harden them up may help.

+1 on what was said about those who want to use hollow points for larger game. This picture is a good example of what can happen with a flat nosed boolit. Once the alloy hardness is found that is best, the projectile is going to do the job.
I have never understood the idea of wanting a hollow point that you KNOW is going to shed weight as it expands, and decrease penetration. Hollow points are for varmint shooting, period! When ever I see someone showing off their HP hunting loads, I immediately mark them down as a pilgrim.

This year I used the 311041 cast 1-WW/2PB, Quite soft in my opinion. Small HP 1/4" deep to insure expansion at longer range. Driven just under 1800 fps at the muzzle.
Only shot two deer so far but performance was akin to a Nosler partition.
I am quite pleased so far.

Just cast some with a big HP going to the front driving band. Hope to try them on coyotes soon.
I've found solids at this velocity will not anchor coyotes reliably unless perfect shots are made.
I've found coyotes to be very difficult to consistently make perfect shots on.

And that is why I keep my 35 boolits around 1800fps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gon2shoot

And that is why I keep my 35 boolits around 1800fps.

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My standard load runs around 2170 fps, and I still have the golf ball size wound channel. Alloy hardness.

I shot a smaller deer about that size a few years ago with a PRB with 90 or 100 gr of PDex Select and it did about the same amount of damage as that Goodsteel. The PBR also hit the meat and bone of the same shoulder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waksupi

Tim, is that the boolit that tumbles? If it is, I would quite frankly call that kind of damage boolit failure. I have NEVER had that kind of destruction with a cast boolit.

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Well, it was just a standard RCBS 35-200-FN, not the 358318.
The boolits were cast from ww alloy, and dropped from the mold on my workbench and allowed to air cool. They were sized .350 on the nose, .359 on the driving bands, and .3605 on the gas check. Dip-lubed with FWFL, and seated in re-sized LC match brass on top of 35 grains of IMR3031, with a Federal primer.
Speeds were right at 2000FPS.
I honestly never shot a deer with this boolit before, and it has a rather small meplat, so I figured I would cast them soft to give it a little advantage. I will be using water quenched boolits from now on because that is just nuts!
Please understand that I had no idea that the boolit would cause this much damage, but the good news was that the kill was fast and humane.
I tried to stop the deer by calling to it, but it was going pretty fast and didn't hear me, so this was a running shot. I hit it right where I was going for but the deer was quartering away from me, so the boolit exited where you see in the picture.
I lost a little meat, but I am happy with the performance of these boolits. As it was, if the deer had run another 30 yards, I might not have been able to recover it due to the terrain challenges (I dang near killed myself hauling it up and out of the ravine I was hunting in.) So it was a good thing I was able to shut her down immediately.
The point is, that many people think that cast lead will not expand or cause enough damage to reliably kill a deer as well as the new fangled wiz-bang jacketed bullets, and this should conclusively prove otherwise! In fact, in this case, the cast lead boolit was a little too effective, and that's the whole reason I posted the photo!
My lead boolit did as much or more damage than a jacketed bullet and at less than 30-30 speeds!

mo-tin and water time...
man.
i hit a small buck at 40 yds with x57 ackley and a hornady bonded bullet travelling a bit over 3-k at the muzzle.
i thought it tore up some meat.. i quit using that combination.
i'd not use yours either.

I think we are all required to "overkill" one or two on our galena journey. I have learned alot of what "to do" by doing it the "not to do" way first. Just imagine if you had Hollowpointed that puppy. :shock:

Wow, that is quite a wound. Good thing it wasn't hollowpointed. Speed and a flat nose do give quite a thump on deer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by runfiverun

mo-tin and water time...
man.
i hit a small buck at 40 yds with x57 ackley and a hornady bonded bullet travelling a bit over 3-k at the muzzle.
i thought it tore up some meat.. i quit using that combination.
i'd not use yours either.

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That is just crazy talk!
There's nothing wrong with my "combo".
I just need to harden my boolits up a little.
How was I supposed to know what it would do?
RCBS 35-200-FN going 2000 FPS? That is an excellent combo! That combo shoots less than an inch at 100 yards. That is the single most popular boolit for the 358 Winchester.
Perhaps you fellers are not understanding the scale of that photo. That is a very small deer.
Also, there is absolutely no reason to ever HP a cast lead boolit! The whole concept of the HP took off when jacketed bullets hit the scene and wouldn't open fast enough to do any blessed good on the deerly departing LOL!

A 200 grain bullet at 2000 FPS is basically standard .35 Remington ballistics. I shot a couple of deer with my .35 Remington using IMR3031 and 200 grain bulk Remington 200 grain jacketed bullets a few years ago. Great performance, but not that destructive.

A while back I shot some air cooled WW bullets from my .35 Whelen at probably a hair faster than that into wet newspaper and the bullets fragmented pretty badly. Seems like that may have happenned here (?) Perhaps a softer alloy is the answer rather than a harder one?

I really need to get that RCBS mold, I have not heard a bad thing said about that particular bullet yet.

Keep in mind, if your impact velocity is over 2200fps, expect to ruin a lot of meat. People have GOT to get velocity on the back burner. A well designed boollit, and proper placement is what kills. Don't worry about the speed. Kill the animal with the hole.

Ric I basically agree with your stement, but must add this caveat.

You can push the velocity up there a bit as long as you tweak the alloy and possibly the shape of the boolit nose a bit. At impact speeds of 2200 plus the need for meplate diminishes really rapidly. Every flat boolit I have ever ran into a deer at 2000 or so plus has shown signs of a pressure wave. Balance the speed/alloy/nose shape and you can push them faster without detonating the boolit and the tougher alloy will normally reward you with tighter groups to boot. A slightly faster boolit is easier to hit with when you start talking 200-250 yard shots with cast in mid range calibers. Now granted most shots are not taken that far, but it is sure nice to know you have the ability to do so if need be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by goodsteel

Also, there is absolutely no reason to ever HP a cast lead boolit! The whole concept of the HP took off when jacketed bullets hit the scene and wouldn't open fast enough to do any blessed good on the deerly departing LOL!

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I have to disagree with that. I am very happy with my hollow points in my 45 acp and my 22 cal varmint loads.

whats wrong with expansion
I see a mushroom a better killer than a pencil
lot of older guys use hp and cast them as well
all a balance game

What would that boolit have done if it just hit a soft green rib going in and missed a rib going out or visa versa on a broadside shot? There is the practice of many to hit the shoulder or point of the shoulder on the way in or out for maximum (any) boolit performance. Then there is the practice of hitting the rib or slats just behind the V of the front shoulder. Both practices require different boolit/speed configurations. Game and terrain does not always present the hunter who chooses one of these practices his/her optimum conditions for their method. Hence sometimes there will be excessive meat loss and sometimes there will be excessive tracking. Enjoy those backstraps on the BBQ Goodsteel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by white eagle

whats wrong with expansion
I see a mushroom a better killer than a pencil
lot of older guys use hp and cast them as well
all a balance game

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That's true, but lots of the old guys were under the impression that harder is better, so the HPs they cast up made a little sense given they were casting boolits out of Lyman #2 and linotype LOL. I prefer to use a flat pointed boolit and let the alloy do the talking. The boolit that caused the hole in the original picture had less than 1.5% antimony and no tin, and pretty much illustrates my point......a little too succinctly.

Quote:

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What would that boolit have done if it just hit a soft green rib going in and missed a rib going out or visa versa on a broadside shot? There is the practice of many to hit the shoulder or point of the shoulder on the way in or out for maximum (any) boolit performance. Then there is the practice of hitting the rib or slats just behind the V of the front shoulder. Both practices require different boolit/speed configurations. Game and terrain does not always present the hunter who chooses one of these practices his/her optimum conditions for their method. Hence sometimes there will be excessive meat loss and sometimes there will be excessive tracking. Enjoy those backstraps on the BBQ Goodsteel.

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I am under the impression that on 150Lb and less whitetail deer, that the ribs do not matter at all to a broadhead, or a boolit. They are soft and easily cut through with a sharp knife. I just don't think that they make that big a difference to boolit performance. It's about the same consistency as shooting through a wet piece of 3/16" balsa wood. Hitting something more substantial like a leg bone, is a different story. That's like a 1" diameter dowel rod of wet balsa wood, and has more effect.
The meat on this deer was so tender! I cooked up one backstrap for dinner last night (had to fed four men) and the other for breakfast yesterday morning, and it was delicious. I'll share the secret recipe: equal parts of black pepper, salt, and powdered ginger.

Never say never, but I agree with Goodsteel that for a rifle, for a hunting boolit, for game that you wish to eat, a hollow point is not necessary. Then again I don't think carrying 20 rounds of ammo with me on a hunt is --necessary. If you want to, Great. If you want to hollow point, Great.

I took two does this year with a .35 cal water quenched #2 clone alloy at 1750ish fps. No expansion what so ever. Boolits hard as a rock. But with a good meplate there was a 3/4" hole from side to side and neither deer went over 40 yd.

My opinion is obviously right and can't really be argued with, but if you have a different opinion and wish to be wrong, then just go ahead.

Milkman

Well I am on the cast boolit only hunting also. I took my first deer with some really hard, wdww and even some lino added in I think, which should be going around 2000 fps. Had to cast them hard because that's what my gun likes. .30 cal, 180 grains. Its the lee mold. Anyways, it went in just behind the shoulder and exited the same. Only took out a rib and did not look like much expansion of the boolit. But when I opened the deer up the wound channel had turned the bottom side of the lungs to mush and one liver.

I plan on going for a neck shot this next time because I am wanting to see what it does up there and compare to the recently killed buck a friend shot with some core locks in the same caliber. I have no doubt that the effect will be the same, but I have to try it.

Cast boolits are definitely a killer. There is a learning curve associated with them, but so far they have not let me down. Good to see pictures of the effects, helps us all learn.

Well your not going to 'eat right up to the hole" on that one Tim.

I use 30-1 at 1800 fps out of the 32-40 and it does very well. No bloodshot meat so far, just trim around the hole if you need to. Left about a 3 inch exit hole. I do think that a properly tuned cast boolit is better than jacketed for many purposes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by swheeler

Well your not going to 'eat right up to the hole" on that one Tim.

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Boy, you aint just whistlin dixie!
I'm going to blow off the rest that I made and remelt the ones I didn't load. I think about 3% antimony and 1% tin should just about do it.
Either that, or I may dump the speed some. Cut it down to 1600-1700 aught to be about right.
Oh well, live and learn.

I think it did fine. You may have lost some meat, but it is in the freezer and not running through the woods wounded. You anchored it and it is food.

Sometimes when using a powerful gun like yours when heavy bone is hit it will drive the bone out ahead of it and will leave an abnormally large exit wound. That same load broadside behind the shoulder may have performed perfectly.
You are taking pictures of a dead deer so how bad did it fail?

Well, as I said after reading about about people eating right up to the boolit hole with cast boolits, and then seeing the results on my first cast boolit kill, "that may be true, but I didn't expect the hole to be quite so big."

Because that 355gr WFN boolit just didn't give the groups and consistancy I desire I changed molds and re-thought the need for approaching the velocity levels 2300 - 2500fps that I was seeing.

I have found a happy home with a 465gr WFN at 1600 - 1700fps, cast of 50/50 - WW/lead and water quenched from the mold.

If I saw that type of meat loss, and considered it anything like normal for a cast boolit, I'd be off them for life.

That reminds me of the mess I helped a friend with this weekend after he took a buck through the shoulders with a 45/70 gummy nose. Not quite this bad and excessive, but I won't be going with the gummy nose in this life.

Cleary, there needs to be some BIG changes with this load or boolit!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

i too use the 358 win and higher velocity [2300+] ,i have a distance handicap to overcome at times.
but here's where we differ in our loads.
i use the saeco 250 gr boolit,ww's + 1% tin, and 25% soft, water dropped. [over 49 grs of rl-19] theres a little [.25%] copper in the alloy too.
if i wanted a bit more expansion i'd soften the first 1/8th inch of the nose a titch with a torch. [i don't]
i loaned this combo to a friend recently to cull some does on a landowner predation hunt,he took three in a row off his hay stacks.
two high shoulder bang flops, and a behind the shoulder pass through with a 40 yd trot/lay down.
he didn't want to give back the rifle and offered me some stupid money for it [which i declined]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by runfiverun

i too use the 358 win and higher velocity [2300+] ,i have a distance handicap to overcome at times.
but here's where we differ in our loads.
i use the saeco 250 gr boolit,ww's + 1% tin, and 25% soft, water dropped. [over 49 grs of rl-19] theres a little [.25%] copper in the alloy too.
if i wanted a bit more expansion i'd soften the first 1/8th inch of the nose a titch with a torch. [i don't]
i loaned this combo to a friend recently to cull some does on a landowner predation hunt,he took three in a row off his hay stacks.
two high shoulder bang flops, and a behind the shoulder pass through with a 40 yd trot/lay down.
he didn't want to give back the rifle and offered me some stupid money for it [which i declined]

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Atta boy.
I'm sure you explained to him that he too could enjoy the benefits of cast lead?
I just wish I could get a few more shots this year so I could find a better load. As it is, I think I'm going to be too covered over to get away from the shop again. I never realized how much time hunting takes!
But, I guess that's the whole point.

Good shooting! I like that combo.

Looks to be good eating!

I've had my own "issues" with the rcbs 35-200 in my 35whelen, no accuracy. I had to WQ them to get them to shoot, and not all that fast either. I'm glad you got yours shooting well with out WQ'ing them.

I would like to wack a deer with mine too, and see how they work.

that is the trouble I have with cast in the same cal
inconsistent accuracy ..........
I can't have that I need a load I can trust to go where I aim ..all the time
it is a very precise game we play for what works for one is not the answer for all
all in all you did what you set out to and the is what counts