Are the pedersoli soule sights any good? Or are you better off saving more money for a MVA or something?
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Are the pedersoli soule sights any good? Or are you better off saving more money for a MVA or something?
Hey saz,
In all honesty save your bucks and pick up the MVA's. Other good choices are Red River(the old PU brand), Kelly and Baldwin. You can check them out at Buffalo Arms web site. I have been shooting BPCR silhouette, creedmoore and buffalo gong matches for years and believe me you dont see the Pedersoil sights on the line. You do see the rifles but the sights are just not up to snuff for serious target work. One other note, get the sights with the most windage you can. If you get into long range you will need it someday.
http://buffaloarms.com/
Many people don't know that Pedersoli makes two sets of sights. The soule sights that are sold in the boxed sets are good and they work fine. The ones that are shipped on most rifles are not the same. The cheaper sight sells for half of the boxed one.
I have one of their soule sights , in about 1/2 of a revolution of wimdage adjustment it is fine , the other 1/2 resets itself on recoil .
Untill I found out what it was doing it drove me crazy, would I buy another Pedersoli , rifle yes, sights NO
The best quality pedersoli, sights. You never see them in the winners circle, EVER.
MVA-Badwin-Kermit Hokes-Distant Thunder is now showing up occasionaly, their Front sight with the slope built into the base is excellent for Long Range.
KW
The Lunger
The Pedersoli Soule has a base with a relatively low pivot point. The sight also has a lot of bulk on the back side of the staff that makes the aperture project rearward a long way. The result is the sight will not fold low enough to permit straight access to to the bore with a cleaning rod.
Let me add to my first post and say the following. All the above post are quite correct in saying the pedersoli sights are not made to shoot the long distance matches. KW and others have years of shooting these type matches and know what is needed. If you have a chace to buy a Pedersoli rifle that has these sights and you are going to use it for casual shooting or hunting then the pedersoli will work fine.For any other use then take the advice of buying other sights.
I am currently saving up for my first sharps rifle. I have narrowed it down to either a 45-70 or 45-90, and want to keep my options open for the possibility of sillhouette or long range shooting down the road. I spotted the pedersoli soule long range boxed set for CHEAP and was wondering if it would be worth it, or save the $ for something better.
Hold out for MVA or similar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saz
For cheap is ok if you are not going to compete in matches that require adjustment between stages.
For shooting a fixed ranges with every thing locked down they will work ok. But it still will not fold down enough for easy cleaning.
For this use I prefer the cheapo sight since it will fold down enough for cleaning.
I use a dexlin rod that works fine with the sight installed. Sage Outfitters sells them.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=94400Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Wasserburger
My Italian sight (taylors) works just fine. Scale on fixed shaft is same as the other side and makes adjusting MOA a bit of a pit. Just have to remember to push shaft to the left to take out all the slack and shoot before anything moves. My other gun has a Baldwin-no comparision.
Forest is a well known shooter at the Montana Gong matches and shoots smokeless, so that mention is a valid point, I was refering to National-Regional NRA Competition, where BP loads are required and the Pedersoli sights are as mentioned are somewhat a Pain. A singular mention in the many many matches held in this country only validates my statement even more so.
I would suggest anyone come to a major match of anysort and handle the sights mentioned, use them. Pedersoil builds good rifles, they are a lousy sight maker. I have ran matches for over 15 years have seen em all, you will see many discourged users of these sights when they see what else is used and how well it works vrs the Pedersoli sights. those that cheer folks on to buy these lesser quality of sights are doing our sport a dis-service in my opinion.
Those that disagree that statement, are entitled to their opinions, however they should really get out and see what other sights used and how well they work and how well they do. Staying home at the tiny bubble of a small personal range, Never attending anysort of shoot, you are really limited in the scope of how much a real objective opinion you give.
KW
The Lunger
Not everyone shoots competition at varying ranges. A sight that will hold its zero at one range is sufficient for a lot of people. Those folks buy most of the BPCRs.
Pedersoli sights are pretty shaggy but telling someone that they can't possibly enjoy themselves without spending $350 to $600 on a set of sights does the sport no favors.
The gent mentioned of in the future of using sights for Sihouette and Long Range, Perhaps EDG missed that in the original posting. EDG must of missed the whole intent of the post, but would enjoy a peeing contest.
As for adjusting only after each yard line statement means you have never shot in a match. Often we have to make quick elevation changes due to condition changes that happen quickly in the short time allowed for record shots in Silhouette, the Cheapoo sights are a pain to make this quick and percise adjustments, shooter fustration is at Max.
That was the intent of my post, It is not much fun when your equipment fails you or does not work well.
KW
The Lunger
Now I know that when speaking from the position of real life experience, somefolks around here take offense,,,,:killingpcQuote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Wasserburger
BUT Kenny is exactly right on the sight issue. I've been battling sights this entire seaon(and a good part of last year) and my scores show it....
Even just bangin away at home if you shoot past a couple of hundred yards a low quality sight will just add to the aggrevation.
Buy the best you can, save until you can afford the better brands. You'll shoot better with ladder sights than you will with floppy vernier tangs....:groner:
OK, don't jump all over me but I have Pedersoli Creedmoor USA 431 sights on the majority of my BPC rifles and one USA 406 Soule
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/img/.../USA%20431.jpghttp://www.davide-pedersoli.com/img/.../USA%20406.jpg
No, I am not a competitor at Raton and the other NRA 'big' matches but on the average using these sights, I shoot about 700 to 1000 reloads each year since 2003.
I do go to Ridgway Rifle Club 2 -3 times a year and shoot 1000yds and also the Silhouettes. This May I spent a week @ Ridgway and shot 850 reloads in 38-55, 45-70 and 45-90 plus 3 original RRB military rifles... no verniers. Most folks have seen the targets that I have posted and honestly, I have no issues with the Pedersoli Creedmoor and Soule sights putting bullets on target and many in the 10" X ring @ 1000yds. And let's be candid with each other - reading wind and the mirage play a major factor with the 'top gun's and the average BPCR shooting long distance for accuracy ... regardless whether using a MVA-Badwin-Kermit Hoke or a Pedersoli
My very 1st BPCR purchase was the H&R Buffalo Classic. First range trip using the Pedersoli Creedmoor shot a 5 shot 7" x 2 1/4" group at 600yds in the 7 ring with 3 holes that could have been covered with a silver dollar ... with 2 witnesses to say this is no Internet talk. BTW, the temperature was 92 degrees - bright sun and the mirage was running left to right like a freight train
I just put a Badger 45-70 barrel on my CPA Stevens with a Baldwin foresight and vernier. If the friggen weather would break, I'll be back up to Ridgway and see if my accuracy improves on Homer @ 1000 yds using the Baldwin
And yes, if I was to be a top competitor at the big matches, I too would have the very best equipment also, including sights!
For the good of the order, here is my Infamous Miss this May @ 1000yds shooting a 1879 RRB, 50-70 with black powder @ 1000yds with open sights ...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...k/IMGP0220.jpg
My spotter said the swinger (about 3 feet from Homer) was doing about 150 mph!
Well John I guess here again it falls back to where do you want the money to go?
Cabela's lists the pedersoli soule at 339(Hadley is extra). You can get a Distant thunder for 385 or a Ron Heilman for 285$, MVA for 457$
And which do you suppose will have the better service if the sight fails the Pedersoli or one being made by a US outfit that's active in the bpcr world?
I have not been in competition either. There isn't a BPCR or silhouette match or way to practice to compete near me. All I can do is practice at the 100 yd range and gongs out to 450 yds up the hill. But my friend who does do it told me what set up to get and I called up C Sharps and ordered it. The sights I have on my rifle are the mid-range soule sight with Hadley eyecup and globe spirit level front. They are very good quality sights and are just like the MVA sights. Like anything, you get what you pay for. I know I wouldn't be happy unless I had a good quality sights. If the sights these guys say to get are ones found on rifles in the winners circle than that would be endorsement enough for me.
John Boy,
thats what I call a casual shooter, you prob do not need upgraded sights but this fella mentioned trying Silhouette and or Long Range.
For Raton alone I took 420 rounds for Silhouette and practice, for Creedmoor 150 rounds for a day of practice and 2 days of Match. For Mid-range I took another 100 rounds for the Match. That is 870 rounds just for the Nationals. Phoenix I took 240 rounds for 4 days of matches and Practice. Alliance was a month later that took 200 rounds plus 60 shots of 22. My match next 150 rounds for practice and the match. Next was Big Timber 2 days of Silhouette 130 or so rounds plus 60 shots of 22. Thats just the month of March and the month of May.
I shoot more rounds in the season in a month than you do all year, the only person your kidding on the Pedersoli sights, being up to snuff is yourself.
The USA 431 has little screws that lock the elevation and have too little windage adjustment this is not worth a hoot or a holler in the middle of a match, had a poor shooter few years back with such sight, we had been shooting at 900 yards with a 10 Wind at 12-15 Mph. He finally got on target with his 3rd record shot, then we had a reversal wind at 3 and now 15 to 18 mph. I told him to come down 3 MOA that took a bit had to unlock with that damm small screw, then I told him to come 24 MOA right, he just looked at me and said ****!!! he was still trying too unlock the elevation for the staff.
I have put on matches for 15 years and see it all and Can give a Honest evaluation on what works and what does not in Matches.
KW
The Lunger
I am petty familiar with the die hard adherents of the so called sport engaging in measuring contests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Wasserburger
The big problem with your point of view is most would be shooters will pass on the entire deal if they have to front $400 for sights just to try out a match or two. So what if they are not competitive. They will not be competitive anyway. For most of us it about fun. They cannot get bitten by the bug if they don't get out there the first time because of a $400 sight and a $1500 rifle. If your sport dies it will not be my fault.
The sport ain't much fun if you can't hit a bull in the ass if you were sitting on him , because you got a sight that's not much good... Been there done that. Didn't save a dang thing buying a cheap sight then learning why the extra 100 or so dollars for a good sight may of kept me in the game just a little better.
Nothing happens if you cannot commit.
Committing your way is about a $1900 bill up front plus cost of brass dies and so on.
Why not encourage guys to shoot what they can afford to start? Let them shoot a Buffalo Classic. What could it possibly hurt? Some of this tradition based stuff is carried way beyond a reasonable fantasy. I sure as heck would not bother if I had to show up on horse back.
What good does it do for someone to get started into something , with inferior equipment that may not even let them be competitive enough to have a taste of how much fun it can be?
Not a hell of alot of fun to get 9 or 10 hits out of a possible 80 or 90, but then I wouldn't want to confuse you with actual experience again....
I've seen a number of folks try the game with bc's and similar stuff, and after they found out this isn't shooting the latest greatest gascheck bullet at large targets 75 yds off, never try it again. I've also seen some folks that jumped into it with cheap stuff, found out what they need to at least have a reasonable chance at being competitive and set about the process of getting there.
EDG,
I see your point really I do, buy the buffalo classic, Hell its made here in the USA at least!, but buy a decent set of sights I would not go below the Parts Unknown as a bottom line. I guess maybe I am wired different, I never buy junk in any endevor I intend on doing, I wanted a Shiloh after handling one, so put in the order started doing research and getting stuff rounded up. Before long I had dies brass and even some powder and bullets all ready for the day my rifle arrived. My first tang sight was a parts unknown, after having to work on it so the thing would fold back correctly then continue to tinker with it to just get it to work sold it for 120 bucks and ordered a MVA Soule, have Never looked back. Fact is I would of been Money ahead if I had just ordered the MVA,
Oh and they have rebuilt that sight twice since 1994. FOR NOTHING!!!
As I mentioned for years I have held matches and have folks show up with this sort of less then good quailty equipment and they spent the money, and never will recoup what was spent in the long run it would of been much cheaper if they had went with better stuff off the bat. Many are so discourged after their poor choice in equipment they dont continue the sport. At least if they had bought good quality sights and such they would not have a total loss on their hands if they bail.
Got a great guy lives right here in Town owns a nice Shiloh, could not hit a barn with his loads handed some of my 45-70 ammo to him he was hitting steel with boring regularity at 200 and 300 yards.
Man was he Fired up to start loading like me, stopped by the house, saw what it took to produce good BP handloads. NEVER SAW HIM AT THE RANGE AGAIN or at our Local Matches. Saw him at the kids school ( he was a 8th grade counsler) he informed me that it was way to much work to load BP.
If you dont have any drive or ambition, this is not the sport to get into. This conversation is starting to remind me of a guy I know at work telling me how he cant afford to shoot BPCR, but would like too, he smokes 2.5 to 3 packs of Cigs a day. I told him that I wont ever feel too sorry for him all has to do is quit smoking, and have his rifle and sights are paid for in about 5-6 months, as he burns up 350 to 450 a month smoking, so that Pitty party stuff woe I cant afford this, your spouting, that dog dont hunt with me
KW
The Lunger
One thing that you "can't afford" types always gloss right past is the cost of the shooting itself. I'm going to say it's a reasonable expectation that if someone can't come up with 2K$ to get started with the equipment, they're also going to have a devil of a time coming up with the money to feed the thing. When you're shooting cartridges that use 1 lb of lead for every 15 or so rounds, and a pound of powder for every 100 rounds, it's not cheap. Just to shoot at Alliance this past sunday my wife and I needed 42 rounds each just for score. It's also pretty good advice to take at least an equal or greater number of rounds for practice and sight settings. When my boys meet me for the Quigley I'm generally carrying somehwere around 5-600 rounds of match quality ammo, just to get the 3 of us thru the practice days and the match.Quote:
Originally Posted by EDG
Then of course there's the entry fee , travel,food and lodging.....
Shooting bpcr competitively isn't cheap.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Don McDowell
It certainly isn't a cheap sport...and that's a fact. It's also very time consuming and does gobble down a good chunk of cash & time just in feeding a BPCR just there's no getting away from that.
Had a similar experience this year as Kenny writes about. A good friend of mine decided he'd like to start shooting BPCR. I did my upmost to explain what was needed and how much time was going to be involved in reloading and casting etc.
As we're in Europe getting a USA built rifle was out of the question for the time being so we'd narrowed it down and decided that a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps would be a good choice in 45-70 (easily available brass) etc. etc. etc. plus if it didn't work out with BP he could always go smokeless. We mainly shoot short range so 300M max and it's always off the sling in the prone position.
Imagine my surprise (and disappointment) when he turned up with a Pedersoli roller in 45-90 with the No.1 type heavy barrel...basically something more suited to cross-sticks than a sling.
I think he's shot it twice in the last year since getting it...his initial enthusiasm being simply replaced by 'it's too time consuming'! :violin:
Alot of what's been said in this thread is solid experienced based advice. I think that sometimes new guys listen then ignore it thinking that it can't be as time consuming as the experienced guys say it is. Same with the sights...especially the tang sight...Pedersoli sights are ok to a point...but in the end if you take to BPCR and become heavily involved in competition you will change them. My personal experince with them has only been bad and I'm convinced it's better to just bite the bullet and get a USA built sight from the word go...you'll save money in the long run.
While I am no longer a competitior, I have shot competition and did well at my discipline (which was not BPCR.)
One thing I always told folks who inquired about gear (whether for shooting or woodworking) is to buy the best you can afford and avoid the bargain basement stuff. Yes, perfect tools are the ideal but for getting your feet wet and seeing if it is for you, get a GOOD quality name and see how it goes. Sometimes, the best doesn't work for folks and the #2 brand does. I have the cheap staff sights on one of my Rolling Blocks and it is there just for hunting and truth be told I would be better served with something else. I have had decent sights on my Trapdoors and been pleased with the results even though it meant inletting a base behind the tang.
KW, I understand your summation about the high cost of doing it right. I had a reloading setup strictly for competition and never understood going cheap for reloading. Bought the best I could afford and made it work for me.
Don,Quote:
Originally Posted by Don McDowell
I am not one of those "can't afford" types except for the time to do all of the driving.
I do find that the common thread for many that participate is to equate BPCR only with the competitive sport while I associate it with the rifles. Only those with a particular fantasy participate. The competitive sport is so narrow and rigid that for the most part you will do without me. The rest of us shoot the rifles purely for the fun.
Just so I am clear. I think you will find that many folks will balk at $2K just to get started with anything. I shot skeet for years and know that many people balk at it's cost. But start up for skeet is the only the mere cost of a used shotgun. If the start up to the BPCR sport remains that high your sport will remain the haven of a few good old boy die hards and newcomers with be few and far between.
EDG, different strokes for different folks I suppose. But there's a slow but steady trickle of new folks at just about everyshoot I have attended. The Quigley has doubled in the last few years. Kenny's Creedmoor this past May had 3 brand new to the game with brand new rifles that I'm aware of and the list can go on.
You don't want to shoot competitive, that's fine, but there's 632 shooters that gather every year from 38 states and 4 soveirgn countries that enjoy there rifles and the hunt of a competitive shoot.
Heck I even know of one family that is fully outfitted with Shilohs (not the plain jane ones either) equipped with MVA sights and the ONLY time they fire those rifles is at the Quigley.
I even enjoy my rifles in other venues beside bpcr competiton. You can try and judge which one I like the most, but chances are you won't get the answer right because I don't even know which I prefer the most.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...ing2010004.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...typpatch08.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...DickSavage.jpg
Don,
Is that a stroller you are using for your cart?
hehe no it's a Rugged Gear gun cart. They've got a 4 gun model out now that looks like it'ld be a lot better than these old 2 guns.
Kenny has a gun cart that I don't recall the brand of, but it's built from aluminum, stout as a brick and looks to be a steady and solid as a brick outhouse.
Just a couple more examples of the equimpment race us nasty types that enjoy competition shooting spend our dollars on.....
Sights? Pretty important indeed, and I'd have to say that here, there are quite a few shooters that had the Pedersoli soule and gave it a fair try - including a friend of mine. Out of exasperation, he decided to build his own tang sight (and also because he can), whixh he now shoots.. His comment was 'too much slop, no repeatable settings'. I'm shooting a Neumann and a Holbrook Dr. Goodwin (2 of each). I like the Neumann very much, but of course it is pretty hard to get in the US. One serious advantage though - you can customize it to your needs: I wanted a vernier scale for windage adjustment, which is what I got, at no extra cost. Now THAT is pretty good service!
Don
I have no doubt there are those that shoot nothing but Shilohs but I prefer the Highwall variations by a mile.
And don't kid yourself, that is a baby stroller frame.