Roll Crimp in the .45 acp Colt auto

Offered in the spirit of who said you can't roll crimp .45 acp?

Not only can you but in my early years of shooting Colt LW Commander starting in 1968. Mostly was purchasing HG68 as they fed most of the time so I switched to 220-230 gr RN also purchased. Didn't start casting until 1970. Standard operating procedure was roll crimp. I didn't know how to ~spell~ taper crimp let alone have one at the tender age of 16. The Commander was private purchased for 100 smackers with original box and bill of sale from 1956. It was very nice but I learned to dislike aluminum frame automatics. They just wear out. From then on it was Gov't Models or 1911A1. What do I use now for .45 acp? Taper crimp!

These two files are scanned from NRA Handloaders Digest circa 1969ish.

https://images14.fotki.com/v1683/pho.../crimp4-vi.jpg

https://images20.fotki.com/v1684/pho.../crimp3-vi.jpg

The time honored method of dealing with bullet seating depth in the Colt auto is to use the barrel hood as a depth gauge.This is where you learn the definition of *flush*. You can use what the loading manuals say as to seating depth or you can do it the traditional method.

Attachment 325808

My former Colt 1911A1 1944. It became too valuable to use as a holster gun so I bundled it together with everything I'd collected, pistol belt, Carlisle bandage, 1944 canteen, spare mag pouch, etc. The M3 holster was marked by the US Army colonel during WW2. This gun was not a rebuild, no rebuild marks. It ran like a champion race horse never skipped a beat long as I fed it round nose cast bullets. I'm very fond of Colts.

https://images14.fotki.com/v1683/pho...F7520fn-vi.jpg

My current and most likely final Colt Gov't .45 auto. Mfg circa 1934 and sent to Argentina for the Police Federal. They were roughly re-finished, blued and imported back to the USA at which point I purchased from FFL JL Denter of Connecticut.

I installed:
Nowlin reduced power main spring
Nowlin reduced power sear spring
20 lb recoil spring & shock buffer
long trigger with over travel screw
ancient Bianchi wrap around grips
new grip screw bushings, all 4
drop-in match grade bbl bushing
Pachmayr flat rubber mainspring housing
high profile white dot sites

It functions perfect with all magazines including USGI, Chip McCormik 8r, and others. Considing it has the original barrel it shoots quite accurate, tactical accuracy. I felt good enough about this gun that I carried it CCW when I lived in Indiana for a time. (a free state). Holster is an original Bianchi Askins Avenger.

https://images34.fotki.com/v1386/pho...2/colt1-vi.jpg

I am not sure when taper crimping got to be a thing, but I purchased a Colt Gold Cup National Match in 1974 and roll crimping was standard operating procedures at that time. I didn't start using a taper crimp until the early 80's for 9mm and 45 ACP.

I do know for a fact that a light roll crimp shoots better than a heavy taper crimp with cast. If not overdone, both the roll crimp and taper crimp shot equal for me in National Match 1911's

The part of that article where it says "of rather doubtful worth" is certainly not someone into competitive shooting would say about taper crimps.
When you can lose a match in one shot most guys are running taper crimps at ~.457>.458.
JMB designed both pistol and ammo to use a taper crimp, that square-edged case mouth was to stop against the square-edged chamber bottom without the extractor having to withstand the forward inertia load of the round as it moves forward.
Nor is the extractor supposed to hold the case back against the impact of the firing pin.
You can crimp without using a separate taper-crimp die, but you must have your brass all the same length and then you VERY carefully adjust the die so that it just takes out the bell and BARELY starts a crimp.
You'll get a crimp that isn't "rolled" and isn't totally "tapered", it'll have just a tiny bit of inward "bump".

My first set of RCBS 45 Auto dies came with a role crimp, early 1980s. I remember when they started marketing a tapper crimp a few years later, and I quickly purchased one. I prefer separate dies for seating and crimping anyway. Having said that I never had a problem with my reloads with a very light roll crimp, just enough the remove the belling.

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Originally Posted by Bowdrie

JMB designed both pistol and ammo to use a taper crimp,

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Do you have reference for that? Yes, the 45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth but until the 80's I am not aware of any 45 ACP die sets that came standard with a taper crimp. I had to purchase both my 9mm and 45 ACP taper crimps separately. I only have a couple of old 45 ACP cartridges in my collection. They are not taper crimped or roll crimped.

I do have one 45 Automatic Pistol Ball marked FA 4 - 12. It has zero crimp, but it does have cannelure at the base of the bullet. That was very common until the late 1930's or early 1940's

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Originally Posted by LabGuy

My first set of RCBS 45 Auto dies came with a role crimp, early 1980s. I remember when they started marketing a tapper crimp a few years later, and I quickly purchased one. I prefer separate dies for seating and crimping anyway. Having said that I never had a problem with my reloads with a very light roll crimp, just enough the remove the belling.

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As a kid I was a huge gun geek. I subscribed to ever major gun rag and read and reread every word. I don't remember when taper crimps became a thing, but I know I had a hard time finding one in 1981.

The Bianchi Askins Avenger is one of the most comfortable holsters to wear. You can lock it in position on your belt by threading your belt into the slot, then through the belt loop on your pants and then through the tunnel on the back of the holster. Works very well, and when the holster is bent around the waist, it is a fairly secure holster.

I used to buy a lot of Bianchi seconds at guns shows in SoCal for $20 IIRC. Mainly cosmetic seconds.

Robert

We, (me too,) sometimes need to go back and see what was going on in past times.
Well into the '70s reloading was a niche pastime, except for the magazine writer guys not that many people did it, it was mostly relegated to shooters wanting more consistent accuracy than what the factory loads offered, and primarily orientated to rifles.
.45 ball ammo was dirt cheap, hardly anybody saved brass, and even the mid-level competitors would only use once-fired brass from their own gun of the brand they preferred when they went to a match.
They controlled bullet security in the case just like the hot shooters do today, not by roll crimps, but with case tension.
It became popular to reduce the expander die to get ~.003 of interference fit, (that's why the bevel-base bullets).
When Joe Average has 10 different brands of brass of unknown numbers of firings, with case dimensions/wall thickness, and brass hardness all over the map he can't blame bullet retention on the lack of a roll crimp.
Roll crimps are for revolvers and heavy recoil rifles.

That's the total opposite of where I grew up. Almost every small-town hardware store carried reloading supplies. Even the big city stores like Woolworths had an extensive reloading section. As a kid I would ride my bicycle all the way across town (11 blocks) to the Coast to Coast to buy surplus H4895 powder out of a barrel. They would but a brown paper nail bag on the scale and scoop in the amount you wanted with a 1/2 pound minimum ($0.50).

After hours there was at least one reloading class at the school per year. In my HS graduating class there were 29 boys and 31 girls. About half the boys and a couple of the girls reloaded themselves or with their dad.

I started reloading at 8 years old and casting at 9 or 10. At 11 I started reloading for a 7th Cavalry reenactment group. By the time I was 15 I loaded and cast for around 50K total with about 85% 45 Colt and 15% 45/70. I was also the biggest user. All on a single station hence my love for progressives.

When I started bullseye in 1982 everyone that I shot with reloaded. A friend of mine had a good side hustle selling H&G hand cast bullets to the bullseye shooters.

If you are taper crimping to .457-.458” you are horribly overdoing it. Check your numbers.

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Originally Posted by 35remington

If you are taper crimping to .457-.458” you are horribly overdoing it. Check your numbers.

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.468" is the normal recommended starting point.

Given SAAMI chamber specs are often expressed in minimums on a number of dimensions, a look at a chamber drawing should be a big clue that taper crimping to .457” is not a good idea.

Since case tension is primarily what holds the bullet in place no amount of taper crimp will make up for loose bullet fit.

I wonder if a .457 crimp would create a kind of muffin top effect to the bullet.

A thousand pardons I beg.
Yes I did make a big mistake.
I meant to type .467>.468,,, oh well, like Chief Inspector Clouseau said.
"If you've seen one Stradivarius you've seen them all".

I have a couple boxes of 1942 ammo and just looked and they measure .468 in the middle and taper crimped .470 on the end. I taper crimp .472 and have several target 1911's.

I, too, recall when taper crimping .45 ACP ammo became a thing, and you had to buy the TC die separately. I still have (and use) mine. I probably should update my RCBS .45 ACP dies one of these years - I also had to purchase a carbide sizer separately. But... they still work.

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Originally Posted by nicholst55

I, too, recall when taper crimping .45 ACP ammo became a thing, and you had to buy the TC die separately. I still have (and use) mine. I probably should update my RCBS .45 ACP dies one of these years - I also had to purchase a carbide sizer separately. But... they still work.

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When I first got serious about NRA Bullseye competition was about the time taper crimping got to be a thing. I shot with two High Masters that believed a light roll crimp produced better accuracy in a National Match 1911 than a taper crimp. One of them was a past NRA National Champion.

The claim that " JMB designed both pistol and ammo to use a taper crimp" doesn't seem to be correct based on the older GI ball I have in my collection. I am having a hard time finding any GI Ball with a discernible crimp so I decided to pull a couple of bullets on issued GI Ball. If the jacketed ball bullet had been crimped, I should be able to see an indentation on the bullet using my optical comparator. Same for the case mouth on loaded GI ball??????? I do have some GI that still has slight burs on the case mouth that would have been ironed out it crimped.

I did a word search for "taper crimp" on the 1937 Complete Guide to Handloading by Philip B. Sharpe with zero hits other than this on page 416.
https://archive.org/details/Complete.../n421/mode/2up

A special note on this cartridge is that it must not be crimped when used in the automatic pistol. The mouth of the cartridge case seats against the forward shoulder of the chamber and acts as a stop. If any crimp is applied, this shoulder location is changed more or less, thus dangerously increasing headspace. This may or may not be disastrous to a gun but is inclined to give more or less misfires or hangfires, particularly since the blow of the firing pin first tends to drive the cartridge deeper into the chamber before discharging the primer.

Does anyone know when taper crimp dies first became available???

I have not done the testing to confirm if there is an accuracy difference. So offer a simple opinion.

A roll crimp might cause variations in pressure if there are variations in case length.

A taper crimp may have a reduced affect in pressure with variations in case length.

I do not trim pistol cases and some have been fired over 30 times.

When I first started loading cast in the 45 used the roll crimp as shown in the article. Got out of 45 for a while and when starting back picked up a used set of Hornady dies at a gun show and the set included a taper crimp die so used that. Completely satisfied with it but can't recall what it is set to crimp to.

I bought my taper crimp die in 1981, so I suppose they became popular a few years before that - probably the mid-70s. IIRC, Phil Sharpe also postulated that reloading the .45 ACP was impractical, and would require a push-through sizing die for the case - essentially a bulge buster. This may have been before WWII, I don't recall. Guess he changed his mind later on.

It's not 1968 anymore. Are there people still think a roll crimp is better than a taper crimp on 45 ACP?

Sure a "roll" crimp is possible but it'll either be a very light roll crimp or you're just headspacing off the extractor.

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Originally Posted by reddog81

It's not 1968 anymore. Are there people still think a roll crimp is better than a taper crimp on 45 ACP?

Sure a "roll" crimp is possible but it'll either be a very light roll crimp or you're just headspacing off the extractor.

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Not aware of people claiming that the roll crimp is better for most applications of this type. Once the taper crimp came on the scene most prefer it. That being said lots of people claim that roll crimps can't be used for case that headspace on the case mouth. That ignores that fact that the 45 ACP and others were commonly reloaded long before taper crimps were common.

Same for the claims the1911 and the 45 ACP were designed by JMB for taper crimps. Done properly both roll and taper crimps work well. Done improperly both roll and taper crimps create issues.

Humm I could be wrong but the 1911 was designed in 1905 and we didn't have a taper crimp until the mid 70's I think Mike Dillon introduced it with the RL450 or 550 it was very widely used in competition at the time.
I still use the taper crimp for the acp but use a roll crimp for all of my wheel guns.

I recall that I bought a small lot of .45 ACP ammo from a local commercial reloader for the price of the components because it wouldn't feed in any gun he had tested it in. I taper crimped it, and my guns ate it like candy. When I told him about my success, he ran out and bought a taper crimp die and began using it on all of his .45 ACP ammo. He acted like he invented the concept after that!

Typically when loading a target SWC bullet, in the 45acp, you leave some shoulder exposed, Some say 1/32". But if you leave enough exposed, it will contact the leade. This will give you your headspace point. Roll, or taper crimp, or case length, will not matter. The cartridge will enter the chamber at the same depth every time. Which type of crimp will shoot more accurate in your gun, is trial and error. Most choose taper crimp by reason of default.

The .45ACP is a very forgiving round to load, that is unless you're an upper competitor at the 50yd bullseye, then thousands of an inch of several dimensional measurements can start stacking up against you.
One thing that is generally agreed upon; You don't use the contacting of the bullet against the leade as a way to control headspace or to stop the round from going into the chamber further.
That's just a recipe for pressure spikes.
In a perfect world the slide will close with the hood-end of the barrel just kissing the breech face and only leave a very few thousands of length between the chamber shoulder and the breech face for the cartridge to "move back-and-forth, so to speak.
The cartridge wants to headspace on the chamber shoulder without trying to unduly pull the extractor forward.
In practice, given the tolerances of chamber and case lengths most 1911s are using the extractor to some degree to retard the forward movement of the cartridge.
When the breech closes the cartridge still has inertia and wants to continue moving forward, we want the case to contact the chamber shoulder without straining against the extractor too much.

In past years I have used both methods with no problems, but I never overdid it either way. Nowadays I just taper crimp all my 45ACP loads. If I am loading for the 45AR, then I will use the Redding profile crimp. Different animal there, I know :grin: .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bowdrie

The .45ACP is a very forgiving round to load, that is unless you're an upper competitor at the 50yd bullseye, then thousands of an inch of several dimensional measurements can start stacking up against you.
One thing that is generally agreed upon; You don't use the contacting of the bullet against the leade as a way to control headspace or to stop the round from going into the chamber further.
That's just a recipe for pressure spikes.
In a perfect world the slide will close with the hood-end of the barrel just kissing the breech face and only leave a very few thousands of length between the chamber shoulder and the breech face for the cartridge to "move back-and-forth, so to speak.
The cartridge wants to headspace on the chamber shoulder without trying to unduly pull the extractor forward.
In practice, given the tolerances of chamber and case lengths most 1911s are using the extractor to some degree to retard the forward movement of the cartridge.
When the breech closes the cartridge still has inertia and wants to continue moving forward, we want the case to contact the chamber shoulder without straining against the extractor too much.

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Thanks for your words of wisdom.

Dutch