Printable View
Have a new Honda HR-V Sport in RED to hit the dealers Aug 13-17. Thinking of having it undercoated by Ziebart, don't know if it will help or hurt as wifes KIA subframe rusted away till no attached sway bar or sever other items. Would like to protect the new car if I can. Is there anything out there better than Ziebart?
Ziebart couldn't hurt.
The price of new vehicles, you would think they could make them out of stainless steel.
Sure it'll help.
But not driving it in the winter when they salt the roads up there is the biggie to preserve it.
When I was stationed up on the East coast,
I was amazed to see a few cars 2-3 years old and the fenders were flapping from being rusted out.
Guys from up there in the snow belt talked of people having a old, beat up 'winter beater' to drive when the roads were salted.
They didn't drive their newer car at all until the weather cleared and the roads had washed them selves off.
Here, if you drive on or around the coast the same thing happens.
You also see car washes that spray as much under your car to wash the salt spray off as they spray on the outside.
The problem with the spray offs is the car washed recycle the water, so the underside gets washed in salt water, better than nothing I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger Ed.
Hmm. I never saw anything around ours that could hold and recycle the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by elmacgyver0
But then again, I haven't been down to the coast in several years.
The ones I'm familiar with are just the washer/sprayer thing on top of the ground you drive up onto,
a drain that goes to a underground sand trap before it runs into the sewer, and a box to take your money.
Might take a look at fluid film also. I did my truck myself with FF and it's holding up great going on almost 5 years now.
Old navy gun builder in the arms plant told me many years ago spray underside with automatic transmition fulid clamed would protect from salt tryed that many years ago don't rember if it did any good ??
When I bought my new Honda CRV the dealer had it Ziebarted which I did not request and I made it clear that I wasn’t paying for this. The salesman had a fit and insisted that aftermarket rustproofing was “essential” here in western PA…..my experience with more than a few new Vehicles indicates that it’s unnecessary and can be harmful trapping water and road salt. Get it if you want to; I skip it. We got the Ziebart for free when I had the salesman read the section of the owner’s manual advising against aftermarket rust proofing.
Ziebart was sued here in Canada because their product did more damage than good, for reasons as mentioned by Aap2. I would stay away from any rust preventative coatings.
I’ll second this. Fluid film is the go-to as far as I’m concerned. I have seen Ziebart treated cars that were as rusty as untreated ones. I have also seen them rust at the spots they drill into to do the treatment in the door jambs. With fluid film you’ll have to reapply it every few years but there is no permanent alteration to the vehicle like Ziebart and it doesn’t make it a pain in the tush to work on like traditional undercoating.Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkenhunter50
Didn't Ziebart used to use Alox 505 or something similar?
As above, ATF or motor oil once a year sprayed around under the car. Garaging it or at least parking it on a concrete slab makes a difference in undercarriage deterioration, too. I live in the far, frozen north where we deal with this issue a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAHUT
That would probably destroy more parts over time than you can imagine. ATF does not play well with many plastics as well as seals and hoses that are not made for it.
Yes, they do with recycled salt water for all the good that does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger Ed.
Is there anything you can do to prevent the subframes from rusting. Not driving in the winter is out. If we moved south we hit salt air and water, north hits calcium chloride, east and west are just as bad.
:coffee:My family has been using Ziebart since 1967 on brand new vehicles. We lived in Detroit. The 67 Buick LeSabre Dad kept till 1978 till it was replaced with a 1978 Grand Prix. The Ziebarted Grand Prix was replaced with a 1992 Buick Regal, Dad's last car. None of these vehicles rusted out and when they were sold, commanded top dollar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red River Rick
My 1972 Chevelle SS was Ziebarted and I still own it after 50 years............no rust. I've owned full size vans since then, starting in 1977 and kept for a minimum of 10 years. Had a 1985, 1993 which were Ziebarted. Neither, rusted out and were sold by word of mouth to the first buyer that looked at them. With the new body style that came out around 1996, GM went to galvanized sheet metal and I stopped rust proofing them. Currently, own a 2004 and 2010 full size Express vans that are rust free.
Besides the Ziebart, I always washed/rinsed the sheetmetal and undercarriage with fresh water whenever the temperature was above 32 degrees. Very rarely did our vehicles go to car washes.
I totally recommend Ziebart. However, we always drove out vehicles straight to Ziebart. Didn't go through the dealer. In 1967, the dealerships in the Detroit area weren't even offering it yet.
Winelover
Superannuated auto industry engineer here.
It depends a LOT on the particular vehicle.
Some bodies have pockets in the design that collect water and salt, others don't. Purely a matter of body engineering. Compare F-150s prior to the big body redesign that occurred about Y2K. Older ones rust like mad, newer ones don't. Got a lecture from the Ford guys about this, they were rather proud of the new body.
Some manufacturers do a good job of rust-proofing the body-in-white, (prior to painting), others don't. Honda, in my experience, is one company that DOES do a good job pf rust-proofing. Example - my 2006 Honda Odyssey has zero rust, despite living in Ohio its' whole life. Chrysler minivans, same vintage and history, the rocker panels are almost always in bad shape.
I haven't looked at Ziebart for many years, but one thing I objected to back in the early days was that the process involved drilling holes to get the spray into closed cavities. Do that today and the factory rust coating is compromised, doing more harm than good.
Would I Ziebart the O.P.'s Honda? No. If it were a Kia or an Isuzu, definitely yes.
I can't verify what sort of water they use but I've been washing my cars that way forever and never had the undercarriage rust out on me. One of them ran for 17 years/309,000 miles (bought new in Minnesota, moved to Massachusetts, retired in Pennsylvania) by the time I gave it away. It was still mechanically sound and passed inspection.Quote:
Originally Posted by elmacgyver0
Something is better than nothing for sure.
PA inspection is very strict about body rust, as I recall.
As above, ATF or motor oil sprayed in the fall around the frame and metal parts under the car. Garaging it or at least parking it on a concrete slab makes a difference in undercarriage deterioration, too. I live in the far, frozen north where we deal with this issue a lot.
Oil, ATF and fluid film will most likely wash off after a time. Many rustproof materials were meant to adhere to the underside for years, but inside doors and other places would remain soft and sticky. The soft sticky material wasn't used underneath for washing away was a real issue.
If it's done right it should help but many manufacturers do a good job and having holes drilled causing broken paint and undercoats to be damaged messes that idea up. Best to have the interior trim panels removed for gaining access to inside of doors, splashliners removed to access fender openings, etc. In other words lots of work. ($$$)
Also best to do when the vehicle is new, you don't want to seal in moisture, dirt and mud as it will never dry out and has only one way to go, thru metal.
Subframes and suspension parts are bad as they don't clean the surface after welding brackets and such, just prime or paint over them. The first place you see rust on those parts are where the have been welded and that is why.
A friend has a Toyota pick up in Vt, lots of salt used there. He was adamant about cleaning the underside regularly after storm clean up and used this vehicle daily. When Toyota had the recall for bad, rusted frames he brought his in and they didn't replace it as it was solid due to the extra time he spent cleaning it.
My boss has a mid 80's Wrangler for plowing, built from a couple wrecked units. When it was put together he had the frame sandblasted as best he could and epoxy primed and painted. He washes it after a storm and will do so if it storms a few times a week. About once a month it goes on the lift and gets crusty spots scraped, either a rust conversion paint touch up or he used to use old axle joint grease applied with a brush. It seemed to work as it's been plowing for over 30 years and is now a back up to a newer Jeep.
So, I guess it comes down to being pro active on maintenance and rust removal on a regular basis for something you wish to keep in the family especially now that 4wd trucks can cost as much as a small house. Or even a decent car for that matter.
I like Ziebart but think it is far better on a new vehicle. Anything that has been out a year or more, your are relying on the workers as much or more than the product. Anything you can do to get the salt off is beneficial. Here in CNY it is not uncommon to see car with small cat holes after 5 years; trucks with frames rotted out. If I had a new ride, it would get an undercoat.
Factoid: The original Carl Ziebart formula was declared persona non grata by the EPA in the late '70s, (if I remember right) and it hasn't been the same since.
I have been using Finnegans Waxoyl since the 70's and it does help a lot. I use it on my restorations where the car is taken down to every last nut and bolt, and its easy to get into the door panels and frames. It helped with the UK weather, but being in california now the climate is more car friendly.
The waxoyl does have alox in it.
When I bought my 2017 Ford Escape the dealer said they d not rust proof anymore. The factory applied coatings are just as good and applying something over them can void the warranty!
Yup, just bought a ArKansas 2003 envoy that will be stored this winter. I will be spraying the underside with undercoating before storage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger Ed.
I have had two new cars done with Ziebart. I think it helps if done well. Their quality went down over time and after having issues with two locations I gave up on them. I switched to Rust Check for my latest car, so far I think it is better. All were kept in an unheated garage which helps. My rust issues have been due to chips and scratches in the paint, never had an issue with the undercarriage.
I do my own oil changes so I get a pretty good view of the underside of my car. The '14 Honda CRV that I own looks well protected as it comes from the factory as does my wife's 2007 Rav4. Neither car has any body rust and I live in the Buffalo NY area. I did have to replace the muffler on the Rav at the 10 year mark.