Back be fore Christmas I picked up an older Shiloh 44-77. What Diameter would PP slick should I use?
What size is the shell holder
Printable View
Back be fore Christmas I picked up an older Shiloh 44-77. What Diameter would PP slick should I use?
What size is the shell holder
Good lookin Sharps!
I prefer 434 or 435 diameter bullets wrapped in 8 lb paper.
I also prefer to keep the length of the bullet to no longer than 1.3 inches.
You can get by with using a Lee 43 mauser size die for sizing the cases for paper patch bullets, and that shell holder fits Jamison 44-77 cases. If you're using cases formed from other cartridges such as the 348 winchester, or 50-110 winchester, then use the shell holder for either of those.
Thanks Don!
I bought a box of loaded ammo from BACO, $$$!
I shot this group at 100 yards using the barrel sights.
Attachment 255228
That doesn't look to bad for commercial ammo. The 44-77 is a pretty easy cartridge to deal with. If you go the grease groove route my Shiloh's like the bullet at .448 diameter.
The 44 is definitely easy on the shoulder, even when whipping a 480 gr bullet down range at 1300 fps or so. Really pleasant with the 410 gr, or 1.1 inch long patched bullets.
Not to HI-Jack this thread, but I am thinking of having a new Shiloh in 44-77 and not finding any brass for it. I was wondering if a guy could use the other brass listed by BACO?
Thanks Scott
Baco makes occasional runs of 44-77 brass from 50-110 and 348 brass.
From what I have been reading it looks like each rifle manufacturer uses a different rim thickness so you have to order the correct brass for your rifle.
I put my name on the back order list at BACO for the brass.
R-71,
Yes, rim thickness varies quite a bit, but thick rims can be turned thinner if you have a lathe or know someone that does. To do it right you should remove the excess material from the surface at the case head, frontside. Once set up properly it doesn't take long to turn a bunch of brass to the correct thickness.
If you remove the material from the backside, the head stamped side, you end up reducing the primer pocket depth and that can be just trading one problem for another.
Also, it is a bottleneck case and as such it can be head spaced off the shoulder if fireformed correctly and that would allow the use of undersize rims if need be.
There are a number of ways around the problems of brass with the .44-77 it just comes down to how much you want that chamber and what you're willing to weather to get there, how much work you're willing to invest. For me it has been a rough and rocky road and I seem to be a long way from having my .44-77, but I will not be deterred this time.
I can offer more ways to make the brass problem less of a problem for the .44-77, but it depends on what resources you have available to you.
The .44-77 is arguably the coolest of the Sharps cartridges, especially with paper patch bullets. It is historically significant too, both on the target range and the western plains. It is a truly obsolete cartridge with no SAAMI specs and no parent case to be made from. I suspect that the .45-70 is the reason for that. Being the .45-70 was the government round of the day and a very fine cartridge in its own right it was much easier for that family of cartridges to survive with less baggage into modern day. Still the .44-77 is not dead, it just takes more effort to get one up and running. Most shooters are not interested in making the effort, which is a shame really, it is a fine cartridge that deserves to be kept alive. But you have to want it and if you do, go for it.
DT I suspect you're correct about the 45 US being a major cause of the demise of the 44, but I also am prone to think that the other major cause was the introduction and rapid acceptance of smokeless powder, that big ol case just doesn't lend it's self well to white powder propellants. Also the rapid rise in popularity of light weight and flat shooting 30 caliber rifles, that even caused the relative death of the 45 US until it's resurgence in the late 1970's... It is interesting to note that as late as the 1916 Winchester catalog 44-77 cartridges were still available..
Don,
You are absolutely correct that smokeless caused the death of these many fine BP cartridges and smokeless gave the small bores life. Many of the BP cartridges fell into obsolescence with only a few of the smaller capacity cases able to make at least somewhat of a transition into the white powder era. Then when the interest began to rekindle in these old single shot rifles the cartridges that shared the head size of the .45 Government, and there are a lot of those, found a much easier path back from the grave. The .44 bottlenecks did not have that advantage and even though the .44-77 and .44-90 are excellent cartridges they have not enjoyed the popularity they deserve as a result.
It is good that at least a few shooters, like you and Kurt and a few others, have made the effort to keep them alive. We can't over look that Shiloh continues to provide the fine rifles in .44-77 (& .44-90) that they do and what that has done for the .44s. When I talked to Kirk about their 19-twist .44s he of course answered as a businessman and mentioned the cost of adding a faster twist.
Ideally a man would have one of each, a 19-twist because it's close to the originals and a 17-twist in order to be better able to compete against the .45s. I'll start working on my 19-twist as soon as I get my 17-twist in hand and working!
DT, I have come to the conclusion that basically the 17 twist is best applied to the 44-90 rem straight, with two rifles so chambered it's quite easy to see why it was so popular back in the day.
I fully believe that keeping bullet length to 1.3 maximum in the 19 twist Shiloh's it is fully competitive to 1000 yards. I discovered that length when sitting here at the desk wondering what exactly was the problem with longer bullets, when I looked up and saw a line of bullets, mostly grease groove 45's, but a single pulled bullet from a 44-77 original creedmoor round just jumped out at me.. Taking it to the calipers, and scale, what do you know, the thing is 1.3 inches long, and weighs in at 460 grains.. It's diameter is .438, which is just a bit large to fit down the muzzle of my Shiloh's but a quick letter with check enclosed to Mr. Brooks and back came a slick at 1.29 .435 diameter..and it preformed well at Raton. I have another Shiloh on order that hopefully on the off chance things work out to go to the Creedmoor 150 on the big anniversary date should fit right close to rifles of the time period. :)
On another side note, in eastern Montana in one of the local county museums there's a really nice sharps that the original owner had at the Battle of Stoneyville, the card discription below it says that the day after the fight he took the rifle to the store in Mill Iron and traded it for an 86 winchester (which is in the same display) because he decided it was a bunch better to have a lighter rifle that held more than one shot at a time. LOL
Jim,
I'm glad I had the foresight when Bell still made the .44/3-1/4 basic brass fo get several hundred and also picked up more .44-77 and .44-90 from Jamison.
I have two .44-90 bn's and one .44-77 with another coming soon in twists 16, 17 and 19 and the 19 does not take the back seat to the others as far as accuracy. Yes with the slower twist you have to adjust the bullet length a slight bit for the .44-77 but the .44-2-5/8/90 BN will shoot the longer bullets I use for the 17 and 16 twist.
The .44 BN chambers get a lot of bad rep from shooters that don't have or even shot them.
I think if more shooters would drop a line or call Starline to make cases for these calibers they just might making some.
I think the large bore .45's started to loose favor when the .30-40 Kraig came around in the late 1800's just like the .222 and the .22-250 lost favor over the .223 because of the bulk brass and factory rounds available.
DT on another note , in preperation for going to the Phoenix shootlpalooza, I came across a flat of 50 of those Brooks bullets already wrapped and ready to go. If you want them I could bring them to Lodi in May.
Are we going to have at least 3 maybe 4 .44-77 shooters at Lodi this year? :)
I'll be shooting my 44-90, and my 77 in 45-90.
Don,
Yes bring those bullets please!
I had a .44-100 Remington with an 18-twist barrel and I could shoot a bullet up to about 485 grains well out to 600 and probably 800 yards. It was quite accurate at those ranges, but I never had it working out at 1000. Could have been the rifle or it could have been just me. I feel I will be much happier with a 17-twist in my first .44-77. With any luck at all I'll be able to run a 17 and a 19-twist side by side some day and decide which I like best. That day could be a ways off.
Kurt,
I don't plan to be shooting a .44-77 at Lodi in May, but it could happen if everything fell in line. I doubt that if will. I'd have to have my .44-77 shooting very well and I don't even have the rifle yet, heck, I don't even have a .44 caliber barrel to put on my rifle yet. So it is unlikely.
My hope would be to have it ready for the fall Lodi match. All of that is just wishful thinking at this point, we'll see how it all comes together once I have my rifle and do some shooting. It will take me a month to get ready for load development once I have the back from Shiloh. Then I'll need time figure things out and get enough load development done so I can at least hit a barn with it.
DT I'll bring those along. I'm running the .434470 bullet cast from 16-1 and wrapped in 7 lb paper in the 44-2.4. Haven't choreographed it but I suspect it'll beat 1300 by a good bit.. But at any rate the amount of vertical that will hold at 1000 is simply amazingly small. At Byers when we could keep a cross wind with no nasty little head wind tail wind switches, it never left the 9-3 oclock line, sadly the wind was pulsing just enough that the x ring was scarce but most of the bullet strikes came back marked at x ring level.
Thanks guys for a very informative thread. I'm only going to be able to oder on rifle made the way I want, so what would be the better caliber 44-77 or 44-90 for buffalo/gong shoot and might be interested in going to Lodi and the Q. I do have Pedersoli in 45-90 that I used for the buffalo matches in Iowa at the NCOWS nationals.
I'm leaning towards a Hartford, but don't know If I need but do want a 14 lb rifle for either cartridge. I know Don said elsware that it is not needed till you get north of 90gr.
Again not meaning to Hijack but there is alot of good info.
Thanks Scott
If you're ordering a Shiloh, they only offer the bottleneck 44's, of the 2 the 44-77 is the better option in my opinion. The Hartford is a nice rifle, but for serious shooting from prone, the #1, roughrider or LRE would be a better choice. The 30 inch heavy barrel is plenty good. Both my #3 and roughrider in 44-77 with 30 inch heavy barrels come in at 12 lbs. The #1 I have on order will have a 32 inch standard weight barrel.
Your pedersoli might be a good candidate to have rebarreled and chambered to one of the 44 straight cartridges after the Shiloh gets delivered.
Jim,
It won't take a month to get that rifle going. I would be willing to say after the first ladder load outing and one follow up of the best load with one below and the other above the best you will know what to use.
If you use paper patch boolits, it’s no problem getting 90 gr of OE 1F into a Buffalo Arms .44-77 case. That, IMHO, should be plenty enough.
Easier (if “easier” can be used in a severe oddball-case drought) to get or make cases, also.
I would be happier with 85 grains, if that isn't enough then more isn't necessarily going to make it better. I don't know OE, but 85 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss will get you about 1350-ish fps with a 520 grain bullet and for me that was as good as it gets. I am speaking about Creedmoor matches here and I like 1300 fps to about 1350 for 1000 yards. That velocity range has worked out very well for me over the last 18 years.
I've loaded as much as 105 grains in my .45-90 with PPB for around 1400 fps, but I can't say that 105 grains was any better than the 83 I use in my .45-70 even through it was 100 fps faster.
It will be interesting to see what I end up with in my .44-77, but that is still along ways off it seems.
In my roughrider, with a Baldwin front and MVA buffalo soul,while I don't recall the exact velocity, 77 gr of 2f OE gets a 1.3 inch long patched bullet to the 1000 yard target, with 155-160 pts on the slide.
PS add about 7 pts for the Distant Thunder long range front.
Don,
If I had this debacle to do over again I would have decided to go with the standard Shiloh 19-twist when I decided to have Shiloh put the barrel on instead of my usual gunsmith. I'm sure I could have made the adjustment with some help and encouragement and I'm sure you would have been there for me.
When I decided on the Green Mountain barrel it was in part at the recommendation of said gunsmith. I should never have sent that barrel to Shiloh and apparently a Krieger barrel is not available at this time. As a result I have ended up with my .44-77 rifle caught in limbo and totally out of my control. I am stuck in a do loop! Every effort I have made to correct the mistake of the GM barrel has only cause things to go deeper into a blackhole and farther from completion.
I'm sure it will be completed in time but here I am 6 months into it and I'm still waiting on a barrel with no idea when said barrel will be available. It could be months before it is and then the work will still have to be fit into the system and get done.
I am a bit disappointed but there is nothing I can do other than just let time pass....., slowly pass!
DT I wish there were other places to get 44 barrels, altho from what I've seen in the last few years, I'm not sure there's a better bpcr barrel than the one's that Kirk turns out of the Shiloh shop.
The GM barrel I had the 44 2.4 put together with sure works well with the 434470 bullet.
On the bright side tho, good things are worth waiting for, and I suspect you'll be thoroughly happy when that rifle returns home.
How much powder are you fellas using? I imagine the case will hold more than 77 grains. How about a bullet mold and weight?
I haven’t checked the twist in my barrel, I think it’s an older gun serial #76XX.
77 grs. of OE 2f is where I've settled for the most part. I have had good results with 75 gr. of OE 1 1/2.
Jim these are the bullets I use for long range in my .44's 16-17 twist and the .44-90 BN 19 twist. They all shoot very well except the far right it was supposed to be a prolate but it did not make that grade. :) it looses it at the ram line if the winds are playing around.
#1 the far left is a swaged Medford stile and it is the most stable and best average shooter for long range.
#2, is from a Sage mould and it has a .250" nose. This one I haven't had a chance to use past 200 yards but the way it's shooting at 200 It will make the 1K I'm sure. This mould came with my .44-77 Farmer I should have in my hands in a week and it will get some serious work when I get it.
#3 is a bullet from the elliptical KAL mould and it is a very good shooter. It has earned me dust collectors in the 19 twist .44-90 BN. At first I had a problem with the mould and I had Rick make me a sprue plate with a .100" hole and problems we're solved. This has a longer shank compared to the ogive that makes it a fine shooter.
#4 will make a fine catfish slip sinker if with more work with it don't pan out.
#1 is 1.4" long 509 gr
#2 is 1.454" long 509 gr
#3 is 1.459" long 500 gr
#4 is 1.455" long 479 gr
I shoot these in the .44-75 Ballard 16 twist, .44-100 Rem st 17 twist, .44-90 bn 19 and 16 twist.
I have used the KAL #3 in the .44-77 19 twist and it will put the turkeys down and miss some rams.
I use 74 grains of 2F OE 75 gr 1.5 Swiss in the .44-77 19 twist but it favors the OE load.
I pulled the 19 twist .44-90 BN barrel off the Shiloh and had Kirk put a 17 twist Krieger 1.3X35" finishes untapped round barrel on it but I'm going to put the 19 back on it. It shoots very good but it's too heavy.
Attachment 255870Attachment 255873
Kurt, those are shooters for sure. Of the four I like the #1 Medford style best, that is a nose shape I know will hold up well in almost any wind condition to 1000 yards. #2 is very similar to my .45 caliber Lodi bullet and it has done very well for me.
Just figuring 1300 fps the various twists would look like this for maximum bullet length with good stability:
.446 groove dia. @ 1300 fps
Twist Length
19 1.320"
18 1.390"
17 1.470"
16 1.560"
A 16-twist might be too much of a good thing. A 17-twist should easily allow for a 500+ grain bullet that will be well stabilized to 1000 yards. The 19-twist would be interesting in that it is close the 20-twist that the original Sharps rifles had and would make an excellent silhouette/hunting rifle. And with the right design bullet would make it to 1000 yards well too. That of course is all just my opinion, but it is based on over twenty years of shooting BPCRs.
The longer I've been shooting the more I am moving away from the sleeker nose shapes like a prolate and money designs and more I like the Medford design and even an old round nose design like my .40 caliber bullet. Again I am speaking of Creedmoor matches. In silhouette the ranges are much more forgiving even if the targets are not.
I think the reason is that velocities remain fairly high, even above the speed of sound to 550 yards in some cases. (pun) In Creedmoor you transition from above the speed of sound at the muzzle to truly subsonic for the majority of the flight. A bullet like the Medford design handles the subsonic part better. No matter what cartridge you choose or how much BP you stuff in the case you can not escape the fact that we are operating in the TRANSONIC ZONE (1346-897 fps). Your bullet design needs to reflect that fact.
In the end I believe the 17-twist Krieger barrel that will be on my .44-77 will work very well for the full range of BPCR shooting. Even if not, I will still look my very best shooting those .44 caliber paper patch bullets in that sexy bottleneck case! :bigsmyl2:
For the 19 twist .44-77 I use the #1 type nose in the Brooks adjustable mould set at 1.325" and it drops a bullet at 485 grains with my alloy. I don't even try the #3 or the #4 in the ..44-77 with the 19 twist. It does not push the bullet fast enough to hold the rpm at extended range. Now in the 19 twist .44-90BN #3 does very well past the 1K. I shot that rifle and bullet at the White Buffalo at Raton and the one on the Shiloh range both are past a 1000 yards.
The Swaged Medford I can swage to just short of 2" long but I swage them 1.4" long for the .44-90 and they make NRA pit weight. But I don't use it often because the base punch is a cup base and I heed to use a twisted PP tail to fill the cup to protect the skirts and keep the wad from getting pushed into the cup and leaks gas. I don't have a lathe anymore to turn the base punch down flat to get rid of it.
Jim- Excellent Post, Thanks
Jim,
That Metford bullet I have shot past 1500 yards, 1585, with my 19 twist in the .44-77 with the bullet at 1.325" and I will say that it will connect with a Buffalo in the vitals and put him down if you do your thing.
I used my Shiloh Hartford hunting rifle you shot at Harris with the barrel sights in some very hard wind that I had to hold off almost full sized iron Buffalo target. That bullet put a fine round splat point first. I know that Lawrence sight on that rifle had enough elevation left to surpass one mile.
I have shot this rifle on 1K irons with the tang sight and I did not have to crank in two points in over bullet #3 and I suspect maybe recoil barrel jump between 485 grains and 500 had something do do with that.
John, are you going to Ridgeway in July?
Cast Bullet Guys,
I know this is an old thread, and I'm a new guy here, but I thought I could ask a question on this particular thread in regards to my "new" old rifle. It's a #1 Sporting Roller made in the mid 1870s in 44/77 cal. It has a 30" barrel, with a 1:19 r.o.t., and the bore is wonderfully shiny bright. I want to shoot paper patch, and not use it in any kind of competition, but do want to hunt with it. I've slugged the bore from both the breech and the muzzle. From the muzzle, and driving the slug down about 4," it slugs @ .42" down to .40" (consistently) and that's by turning the slug about every 64th or so of an inch circular and measuring over and over. I know it would be great to know the exact bore dia., but I'm not that great as any kind of measuring machinist... but I thought what, and how, I measured might be worthy of helpful comment; would appreciate it to get a result a better way (just for this one rifle, uniquely as a traditional hunting gun).
From the breech: I drove the slug into the bore around 4" and came up with the dia. being .44," down to .42." The measurement was very consistent, and as I measured the muzzle in the same manner, slowly turning and measuring. The groove dia. is very slight, and trying to measure that without anything "groovy" being across from each other for groove dia. is kind of tough, for me anyway.
An idea of what dia. p.p. bullet to order for the rifle is what I'm asking here. I plan on a Brooks mould, but I want to make sure I have the right one made from the get go, if possible. This rifle will be used only with the "Holy Black" (thinking 1.5 Swiss or the same of old E. for a charge) from here on, as long as I own it. I'm thinking maybe pure lead for proper obturation with a paper patched pill, again for hunting.
Before I call Steve Brooks to order a mould, I thought I'd run it by ya'll first. I also was wondering what the best bullet weight, in the traditional sense, for hunting big game (elk mostly) would be proper. Also, cupped base or flat, and again, best for hunting.
Thanks for any info aforehand, I would dearly appreciate it. What else would I need for info for Steve to make a mould for the old roller? I've shot greasers for over 20 years in my Shilohs, but never have paper patched. Wanna get into the "old" jackets, just because. I love that old, historical roller certain sure! Geeze, to know where it's been... and what it's "been into."
reinert
Need to make a correction on my measurements on the bore of the old rolling block in the previous post.
The breech measures .444" to .442" (instead of .44" to .42")
The muzzle measures .442" to .440." (instead of .42" to .40")
Sorry...
Figure out the bore diameter at the breech, and then go with a bullet that is about 4 or 5 thousands smaller before patching.
reinert,
Without knowing the bore diameter, not the groove diameter it's hard to give you a unpatched bullet diameter.
For the purpose you want to use this rifle, for hunting, or just fun shooting you don't want a bullet overly tight especially for hunting were you might need a followup shot.
No need to use pure lead shooting black powder to get proper obturation, I use 1/20 tin/lead for hunting this will give you good penetration that pure lead on large game when it hits bone or angle shots might not make a good pass through to ventilate the boiler room. 1/20 or 1/30 is good enough to get the job done and still expand the nose. A hunting bullet with 1/20 or 1/30 will obturate good .004" under bore diameter and distance you will shoot hunting. Match shooting I want my patched bullet right at bore diameter. I also use a bore diameter bullet for the first shot for hunting and a lesser diameter incase I need a followup shot. The first shot is the important shot.
With the .44-77 you have the neck to work around with seating the wads, lube if you use it plus the cards so for hunting to be able to make a follow up shot a tight patched bullet needs to be seated deep to keep the ogive back off the fouled throat so you can close the breach and this will take up room in the case neck and you don't want the wads below the neck in the case shoulder.
Find the bore diameter plus the paper thickness you want or can find, I like paper .0018 to .002" thick. I don't like patched thickness less than groove depth.
I don't know if your rifle has even lands grooves, but you can get a close enough measurement if they are odd like 3 or 5 grooves using a fraction drill bit or pin gages if you want to spend the money getting a set but drill bits will work inserting the shank (not the cutting end :) ) to get the bore diameter.
Enjoy the .44-77, it's a good caliber. I have two.