Very low recoil 12ga buckshot loads?

I have grown fond of my 14" barreled 12ga Tac-14 .... and I love shooting these Shorty/Short or Mini shells out of it. However, these Shorty/Short/Mini shells don't cycle in my Tac-14 ... or in any of my other 870s ... :-(

So, this gave me the idea of reloading something similar and that would cycle in my 870s. Basically I am trying to come up with a load that resembles a 2.5" 410 load. Those loads are normally loaded with four #000 Buckshot pellets .... and they run at around 1200 FPS.

However, in my research online I could not find much information ... :-(

Has anybody played around with something like that? The idea is to have a very low recoil load that women and children could feel comfortable with ... and out of a 12ga 870 or a 12ga Tac-14 ... and that will cycle in an 870 ... and that resembles a 410 buckshot load.

I just loaded the following load ..... but I have not tested it yet. I need to get out to the range now. Basically four #00 Buckshot pellets in a 3" 12ga hull ... and we are talking here about pretty low pressure territory.

1. Cheddite 3” hull
2. Chedditte 209 primer
3. Powder: 17.1 grains of Clays
4. BPGS gas seal
5. PT1215 wad
6. 2x 20ga .125 Nitro Cards inside the wad
7. 4x #00 Buckshot pellets
8. Buffer
9. Clear overshot disk
10. Roll crimp

So, again has anybody played around with something similar like this?
If yes, what were your findings and challenges to overcome?

Why are you working with 3 inch shells? I would think that since you are going with a less than standard payload and as a result having to fill up empty space you would want to use 2 3/4 inch shells to get more capacity. Besides that point I've never used any powder in a shotgun other than Red Dot and Unique so can't comment on your specific load. However, my favorite load was 16 grains of Red Dot with 1 ounce of shot for a low recoil load. The book said something like 1,200 ft/sec. I would think 4 pellets of 00 would probably weigh no more than 1/2 ounce so velocity would be higher. Could probably easily drop that powder charge a couple of grains to compensate.

Like yourself, I tried the shorty shells, both 2" and 1 7/8" with less than satisfactory results in several pump guns. I got the little Rubber adapter that you plug into the bottom of the receiver which made them work fairly well but I wanted something for defensive use and I just can't trust a snap in piece of rubber for that. If you are wanting to use them for recreational shooting only and aren't aware of such a device I can try to find the box it came in to give you manufacturer contact info.

Loaded Red Dot with a 7/8 payload wad, a 1/4" 20ga felt wad and 12 #4 buckshot. Fold crimp. Works well in my 870 and patterns surprisingly well out of a non-rifled slug barrel. 2.75" shell

35 Rem, that rubber adapter only works in Mossberg pumps ... it will not work in Remington 870s!!!

And your question why I used 3" shells is a valid question ..... Keep in mind that I added an extra BPGS gas seal to that load column and to contain the gases as much as possible. Ballistic Products calls this a Pagoda load! The objective is to get the most out of those low pressure loads! However, that extra gas seal also increases the height of the whole load column .... and I wanted a deep roll crimp and to increase pressures ... and to ensure a clean burning of all the powder. That is the reason for my choice of 3" hulls.

Four #00 Buckshot pellets weight 220 grains ... so that is a 1/2 oz payload. And this is at the bottom of the spectrum of what 12ga can do ....

I am aiming for a 12ga load (four #00 buckshot pellets) with the least amount of recoil ... and a velocity of around 1100 FPS .... I don't need more velocity.

OK, I figured you had a good reason for the 3" shells since you seem to know what you are doing. :) I couldn't remember specifics about those adapters, was thinking they made them for different guns other than Mossbergs. I would give the load you described a try and if the pattern and recoil met my expectations would tend to be satisfied regardless of velocity. I say that assuming that any velocity variations from your goal would tend to be High considering the 1/2 ounce payload being as you say at the bottom of useable for a 12 gauge.

I got into trying the shorty shells and was considering developing such loads for my daughter as a home defense load in the 8 shot Mossberg I got her. But when we went out to test it and she shot up a whole 25 round box of standard 9 pellet 00 shells with a big smile on her face I figured there was no need to go further with low recoil loads. Surprised the heck out of me since she only weighs 98 lbs.

What purpose are these loads for? Ramguy and I have been loading low recoil 8 pellet OO buckshot for pinshooting.

35 rem, Is your daughter running a Mossberg gas gun? I am using a 940 and it is easy on the shoulder. 12 pellet S&B are not a problem.

Not sure if this will be much help but when my son was 10 he wanted to grouse hunt, but with a 12 ga., but standard 1 1/8 oz. loads were a bit much so I picked a 1 1/8 oz. load using Unique and dropped the powder charge by 10% and that worked for him. Not sure of velocity but recoil was much reduced and easily handled by a 10 year old and it patterned well to about 20+ yards.

Now having said that, I tried using a birdshot load for 1 1/8 oz. shot but used a Lee 7/8 oz. slug thinking Unique would be fast enough to work with the lighter payload. It did but barely! Most rounds shot okay but I had some near bloopers too so pressure must have been low and marginal for Unique. I had some green Dot I was saving for trap shooting but tried that and the 7/8 oz. slug loads worked well.

A faster powder is going to be better for a light payload. I'd think anything faster than Green Dot should work and your Clays sould be good. I have not loaded that light though so no personal experience.

Going back to your purpose of low recoil, my reduced loads of 1 1/8 oz. were easily handled by a 10 year old. Is there a reason you want to go with 1/2 oz. payload instead of 3/4 oz. or 1 oz. as long as recoil is low? There is quite a bit of load data around for 3/4 oz. and 1 oz. payloads though some will be "zippy" as in light payload at higher velocity but with a fast powder dropping the charge will lighten recoil... stating the obvious there! The worst that would happen is a blooper but with a fast powder I think that is unlikely.

You might also check BPI's short hull data. I have some short hull data I will look up later and post if it is useful.

Also, you might check the doublegunshop site and Parkerguns site as they have low rpessure load data as well as some short hull data. I doubt it matters if you use a 2 1/2" low pressure load in a 2 3/4" or 3" hull with longer wad column. The point being low pressure should equate to low recoil and the shorter hulls like 2 1/2" tend to be low recoil/light payload loads that may work for you. They will have black powder equivalent loads as well and again, those may suit your needs by replacing the payload with buckshot.

Just some thoughts.

Merry Christmas!

Longbow

Cut some Rio's to 51mm (2") and they cycle in my 2 3/4" 870 and 3" Mossberg just fine. Maybe look at a wad column that will work @ 54 - 55mm with a roll crimp. I only use roll crimps for buckshot.

KB

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My Low Recoil loads are simply my Trap and Skeet loads with Buckshot or a Slug in them. 18 gr of Green Dot WAA 12 clone wad, 9 00 balls or 8 000 balls or a Lee Slug.. 1150 fps

I Don't fully understand "Cycling" in a "pump gun." 870's are chambered for 2 3/4 or 3" shells If your guns won't cycle regular shot shells there is something else wrong.

Randy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan

My Low Recoil loads are simply my Trap and Skeet loads with Buckshot or a Slug in them. 18 gr of Green Dot WAA 12 clone wad, 9 00 balls or 8 000 balls or a Lee Slug.. 1150 fps

I Don't fully understand "Cycling" in a "pump gun." 870's are chambered for 2 3/4 or 3" shells If your guns won't cycle regular shot shells there is something else wrong.

Randy

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Randy, we are talking about those mini shells .... they are 1 3/4 inches long ... much shorter than standard 2 3/4" shells.

Examples are:

• Aguila Minishells
• Federal Shorty Shotshells
• Challenger Shortshells

Being 1 3/4 inch shells they are too short to cycle reliably in an 870 ... I tried them all in several 870s ... They basically flip around sometimes and jam the action ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plate plinker

What purpose are these loads for? Ramguy and I have been loading low recoil 8 pellet OO buckshot for pinshooting.

35 rem, Is your daughter running a Mossberg gas gun? I am using a 940 and it is easy on the shoulder. 12 pellet S&B are not a problem.

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No, it's a Maverick pump. No gas action to soften the recoil. She's 23 now and I started her off shooting at about age 7 with a 22LR Chipmunk. Got her a H&R single shot 410 a few years later. She started shooting my CZ Carbine in 7.62x39 at about 14 with full power loads and I expected her to object to that but she didn't. She would shoot 20 to 30 rounds or more per practice session with it. Recently I let her try a full size 1911 45 ACP with standard 230 grain loads and she loved it. She shot at least 50 rounds. Same with Cowboy loads in my Uberti SAA 45 Colt. I've never tried to give her more than she can handle like some men do for a joke so she trusts that I won't give her something that will hurt her and as a result she definitely ended up handling guns I never expected her to.

I load something similar in 2-3/4 Federal paper hulls that have been trimmed to remove the original folded crimp, except I do away with the plastic wad and add felt wads as filler. I use the same charge bushing with Clays and also load #4 buck. Roll crimp and overshot card finishes it off. The direct lead contact with the bore doesn’t leave any noticeable streaks.

My daughter-in-law shoots rattlesnakes with this load around their house. It obliterates the snakes and doesn’t recoil much out of her Mossberg pump.

I load light loads for my 12ga Tac 14 using Alliant Electra lite powder. I have loaded as light as 5/8 oz but usually stay with 3/4 oz. I load 5 or 6 ..... 000 Buck (Lyman 0.360 RB) and use 7/8 oz data with Alliant E3. Alliant Extra lite will burn clean with light payloads.

I have a Tac-14 also, and a comfortable load is 6 cast 00 pellets in a 12S0 clone wad. I use filler wads of styrofoam meat tray material to get the stack height right. I had some old Winchester Super Lite and used it. I also installed a Knoxx pg stock that maintains the legal 26.5" o.a.l. A viridian green laser installed on the fore-end makes hip shooting accurate.

Edit to add, loading these in paper base federals to match the 12s0 wad.

Perhaps this load will solve the question of "will it feed" in the 12 gauge Mossberg 500/Maverick 88 series:

12-Ga., 2" Shotshell - Roll Crimp
https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...a-2-shotshell/

Same load: Short & Stout 12ga 2”
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load18_04_27.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faustus

Randy, we are talking about those mini shells .... they are 1 3/4 inches long ... much shorter than standard 2 3/4" shells.

Examples are:

• Aguila Minishells
• Federal Shorty Shotshells
• Challenger Shortshells

Being 1 3/4 inch shells they are too short to cycle reliably in an 870 ... I tried them all in several 870s ... They basically flip around sometimes and jam the action ...

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Good reasons to only use regular length shells,,, Huh?

Learning how to do Single Loading is a good thing, and it helps when you run the gun dry and need to get back in the action. See the "What I did to my Shotguns" sticky in the Shotguns section. It explains all of this in detail.


Randy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faustus

I have grown fond of my 14" barreled 12ga Tac-14 .... and I love shooting these Shorty/Short or Mini shells out of it. However, these Shorty/Short/Mini shells don't cycle in my Tac-14 ... or in any of my other 870s ... :-(

So, this gave me the idea of reloading something similar and that would cycle in my 870s. Basically I am trying to come up with a load that resembles a 2.5" 410 load. Those loads are normally loaded with four #000 Buckshot pellets .... and they run at around 1200 FPS.

However, in my research online I could not find much information ... :-(

Has anybody played around with something like that? The idea is to have a very low recoil load that women and children could feel comfortable with ... and out of a 12ga 870 or a 12ga Tac-14 ... and that will cycle in an 870 ... and that resembles a 410 buckshot load.

I just loaded the following load ..... but I have not tested it yet. I need to get out to the range now. Basically four #00 Buckshot pellets in a 3" 12ga hull ... and we are talking here about pretty low pressure territory.

1. Cheddite 3” hull
2. Chedditte 209 primer
3. Powder: 17.1 grains of Clays
4. BPGS gas seal
5. PT1215 wad
6. 2x 20ga .125 Nitro Cards inside the wad
7. 4x #00 Buckshot pellets
8. Buffer
9. Clear overshot disk
10. Roll crimp

So, again has anybody played around with something similar like this?
If yes, what were your findings and challenges to overcome?

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So have you fired your four pellet buckshot load yet?

Use those PT wads sparingly. The PT series is discontinued...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry54

So have you fired your four pellet buckshot load yet?

Use those PT wads sparingly. The PT series is discontinued...

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Haven't tested the load yet .... we have 3 feet of snow here. I guess I have to wait till the spring ....

Once tested, I will update this thread with the results.

I would pick a light trap load recipe and swap out the payload..fill in the extra space inside the wad with some filler to ensure the column is correct height and call it done.
FWIW a 7/8th oz load of steel propelled along by ASteel powder has little recoil but much noise...as does the 1oz loads of same,both kill ducks fine out of 12ga.

actually....the other way around it..would involve lots of cleaning after shooting but would have satisfying smell and cloud of smoke...... being buckshot you can do away with wad petals too....

This may help. They run fine in my Tac-14

https://youtu.be/gDuK2RkAxU8?feature=shared


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Leon: What kind of Roll Crimper did you use on those shells? You got a really nice Radius on the front of the hull which will help with feeding in Pumps and S/A's. I like it! I also finish Fold Crimped Hulls that flare out a little with a Roll Crimper but Mine don't produce as nice a Radius as what I saw in your Video.

Randy

That looks like the crimper that BPI sells. I have one and it does a good job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan

Leon: What kind of Roll Crimper did you use on those shells? You got a really nice Radius on the front of the hull which will help with feeding in Pumps and S/A's. I like it! I also finish Fold Crimped Hulls that flare out a little with a Roll Crimper but Mine don't produce as nice a Radius as what I saw in your Video.

Randy

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I used a Gaep OTP


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Many People don't understand that better looking ammo shoots better than crappy looking ammo. I am constantly looking for ways to improve mine and others should be doing this too. It is just part of Craftsmanship called "Attention to Detail."

I load a lot of Winchester Universals for my 3 gun shoots. They are laying everywhere at our range and I can get 1-2 reloads out of them and then let them go. The hulls invariably Flare out at the top edge of the hull when reloaded. That's cuz they came that way in the first place, but it gets worse on the second and third closing of the Fold Crimp. I usually run them thru my current Roll Crimper on the mill to put a Radius on the Crimp which makes them feed better in repeating Shotguns like Pumps and S/A's. It does OK but the one you used makes a bigger radius. Gotta get one!

Randy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan

Many People don't understand that better looking ammo shoots better than crappy looking ammo. I am constantly looking for ways to improve mine and others should be doing this too. It is just part of Craftsmanship called "Attention to Detail."

I load a lot of Winchester Universals for my 3 gun shoots. They are laying everywhere at our range and I can get 1-2 reloads out of them and then let them go. The hulls invariably Flare out at the top edge of the hull when reloaded. That's cuz they came that way in the first place, but it gets worse on the second and third closing of the Fold Crimp. I usually run them thru my current Roll Crimper on the mill to put a Radius on the Crimp which makes them feed better in repeating Shotguns like Pumps and S/A's. It does OK but the one you used makes a bigger radius. Gotta get one!

Randy

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Thanks Randy! Gaep has the BN series (I use the BN2) for finishing fold crimps and the OTPnfor roll crimps only.

Here’s a two loaded hulls. Left:pre finished crimp. Right: finished with the BN2. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1328ed4997.jpg


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I have the rem tac14dm which is mag fed and use a win universal hull,15gr. Titewad,cb 0178-12 wad, 17 #4 buck, 8 point fold crimp. Very good pattern

Leon: that round on the left is exactly what I'm talking about !

Randy

Agree that is a nice looking crimp.

Update:

Ok, so I finally got around to testing that very low recoil 12ga buckshot load.

With the 4 pellets only weighing 220 grains ( 0.5 oz ) I feared that that load would just be a blooper and only doing a puffff instead of a boom.

But, those loads went boom …. and I was surprised with their effectiveness.

So, I shot them at 20 yards …. and the pattern out of a Modified choke was around 8 inches …. all 4 pellets stayed within a circle of a small pie plate at 20 yards. For penetration at 20 yards, all pellets cleanly penetrated (traversed) a ½ inch plywood board.

Recoil? There was hardly any recoil …. I was smiling!

Unfortunately, I don’t have the velocity of this load …. but pressure should be way way below max pressure.

Anyhow, I think I now have the perfect load and to initiate new shooters or kids (youngsters) to the 12ga.

Recoil should even be less that a 410 buckshot load. A 12ga gun is normally much heavier than a 410 gun. And the four #00 buckshot pellets weight less than the standard 4 or 5 pellets of #000 in most 410 buckshot loads.

Here is the load data:

1. Cheddite 3” hull
2. Chedditte 209 primer
3. Powder: 17.1 grains of Clays
4. BPGS gas seal
5. PT1215 wad
6. 2x 20ga .125 Nitro Cards inside the wad
7. 4x #00 Buckshot pellets (stacked in 2s)
8. Buffer
9. Clear overshot disk
10. Roll crimp

And for those that are interested …. here are the reference loads from the Cheddite Manual and the Advantages Manual.

-------------------------------------------
Cheddite Hull
Cheddite Primer 209
Clays Powder – 19.2 grains
PT1215 Wad
Fold Crimp
#8 shot (492 grains, 1 1/8 oz)
PSI 9900
FPS 1200
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Cheddite Hull
Cheddite Primer 209
Clays Powder – 20 grains
PT1215 Wad
Fold Crimp
#2 Buckshot x 16 (464 grains)
PSI 9100
FPS 1255
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Cheddite Hull
Cheddite Primer 209
Clays Powder – 23 grains
PT1205 Wad
Fold Crimp
#2 Buckshot x 12 (348 grains)
PSI 9200
FPS 1520
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Cheddite Hull
Cheddite Primer 209
Clays Powder – 26 grains
PT1205 Wad
18FW20 felt wad in base
Fold Crimp
#8 shot (300 grains)
PSI 10500
FPS 1715
-------------------------------------------

Hope this helps….

Another powder that would likely work well is choose your hull and try Bullseye 16.5 to 17.5 gr. I once used this data for some 7/8 ounce loads. The wad was seated too deeply and the crimp dished in and the pellets all leaked out. I wanted the hull back so I took it out and expected it to be a blooper. Surprised the heck out of me when the wad left the barrel with a loud "POP!". Since this load is for 7/8 ounce and it is a book load from Alliant, 4 x 00 buck should move along quickly since the payload is about a 1/2 ounce.

Interesting results! Thanks for researching and posting. I think I'll give that a try.

Longbow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 35 Rem

Why are you working with 3 inch shells? I would think that since you are going with a less than standard payload and as a result having to fill up empty space you would want to use 2 3/4 inch shells to get more capacity. Besides that point I've never used any powder in a shotgun other than Red Dot and Unique so can't comment on your specific load. However, my favorite load was 16 grains of Red Dot with 1 ounce of shot for a low recoil load. The book said something like 1,200 ft/sec. I would think 4 pellets of 00 would probably weigh no more than 1/2 ounce so velocity would be higher. Could probably easily drop that powder charge a couple of grains to compensate.

Like yourself, I tried the shorty shells, both 2" and 1 7/8" with less than satisfactory results in several pump guns. I got the little Rubber adapter that you plug into the bottom of the receiver which made them work fairly well but I wanted something for defensive use and I just can't trust a snap in piece of rubber for that. If you are wanting to use them for recreational shooting only and aren't aware of such a device I can try to find the box it came in to give you manufacturer contact info.

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Mossberg 590S Shockwave will also shoot the short shells as well as the normal 2 3/4 and 3 inch. I have 2 and after 100rnds in each gun I am happy with mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blood Trail

Thanks Randy! Gaep has the BN series (I use the BN2) for finishing fold crimps and the OTPnfor roll crimps only.

Here’s a two loaded hulls. Left:pre finished crimp. Right: finished with the BN2. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1328ed4997.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Thank you to both of you, this is huge to me. Many moons ago I recognized square tops and belled tops were finicky in the pumps, usually burned them up is the SxS or the O/U. I *really* don’t mind adding a step to get a nice taper like that pictured.