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Some of you may know this but I'll pass it along for the ones that don't.
After sizing cores. The lube has to be removed. I use a container and fill it with hot tap water, add a squirt of Dawn dish soap and then add Citric Acid. Shake it for few minutes and the cores will turn bright.
The lube will be off and the cores are also etched.
No more heating them up in a crock pot or on the stove.
I'd be looking for whatever solvent breaks down the lube too so I could do a quick wash & rinse.
'Better life through chemistry'
and don't make extra work for yourself...... Plenty of other people are more than glad to do that for you.
I was told long time ago that benchrest shooters washed their cores in dish detergent and let them dry, the detergent causes corrosion that bonds the core to the jacket.
I use simple green and very hot water renice out in a straining basket again with very hot water let sit out flat on an old clean towel until completely dry it's worked for me the last 25 years
C2h5oh
Thank you Ajax. Should one also clean the jackets?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax111
Barry
I derim before I anneal. After deriming, the cases go into a small kiln. Then put into a wet tumbler with pins for about 2-3 hours. Then dried.
Then put into containers with some desiccant tabs, to keep them dry.
Then I swage in the cores.
My jackets have pretty well been clean with this process, plus you don't have to do the steps at once.
I will add I do a cleaning wash before deriming.
I swage cores with no lube, therefore no cleaning needed. Does not seem to be a problem so far. Is that a bad idea?
I have no idea who makes my old swage dies the core seating parts only support the bottom third of the case and to get the best core seating I leave lube on the cores . I am not shooting these from bench rest rifles however I am getting MOA groups from a 180 series Ruger Mini-14 and 3/4" 100 yard groups from a Rossi break open rifle .
If I clean the core the core expands near the top before being pressed well into the jacket . I have compared High speed impacts with dry cores , lubed cores , and cores bonded by heat (soldered in the jacket) in water jugs . Dry cores shattered even the bullet base , both lubed core and soldered cores had the mushroomed bullet base intact with most of the bullet shattered . Since I use these bullets for pests to coyote size I am getting the results I want they will exit a raccoon broadside . I did experiment pressing #9 shot into the core to a solid mass the bullets got twice the group size at 100 yards but the one coyote shot got a grapefruit size surface wound and ran off so I gave up on them . I did have a bit better luck with #2 shot however I had no advantage over solid core as both exit raccoons with pieces large enough to cause damage .
I know the bench rest guys may see the difference I sure do not and I can not see how the core could spin while the rifling is digging into the jacket and core?
With half Jacket pistol bullets I have found powder/paint coating the core reduces leading completely and the bullets shoot better .
I found that Woolite with citric acid excels at removing swage lube from jackets and the pins don't get gunked up. I've recently been going dry for small batches of heavy (69gn & 77gn) bullets, so I haven't gotten around to trying it for cleaning cores yet, but have a feeling that it'll work well.
I found that Woolite with citric acid excels at removing swage lube from jackets and the pins don't get gunked up. I've recently been going dry for small batches of heavy (69gn & 77gn) bullets, so I haven't gotten around to trying it for cleaning cores yet, but have a feeling that it'll work well.
Be aware that Woolite will NOT remove annealing scale! Use Dawn for that.
For "only deriming or core bleed" steps I use, and support the use of in my dies, simple RCBS Case Lube-2. It is like liquid soap and washes clean with water.
For all other operations of swaging I only recommend quality swage lube.
The RCBS lube works just fine for deriming operations and core bleeding. It is very easy to wash clean with water. I do not recommend bleeding cores without any lube, I found over time small amounts of lead may bleed by and around the inner pin of the die causing excess force during both bleed and ejection from the die.
Swage on!
BT
Does anyone of you use any special product to do the etching? White vinegar, etc...
I understand some do etching to prevent core slipping inside the jacket. I simply use a cannelure tool for that purpose which also conveniently provides a place to crimp the case into the bullet.
I have long heard about core spinning in the jacket but have never seen any sign of it . the first time it came up for me is when I started sizing .357 Jacketed bullets to .351" to shoot from My Winchester Model 1907 . The claim being the copper Jacket would spring back and leave a lose core . I hunted deer with 170 Grain Sierra JHC in my model 1907 the bullets sized to .351" shot 1" 50 yard groups . The bullets performance on deer is good but expand a bit to fast , however they pass through jacket still in the core on broadside shots , The deer have dropped right there , So far I shot two deer both at 40-45 yards Both shot in upper shoulder the near side shoulder was separated from the body causing the deer to drop . One bullet shattered a rib on the way in and went though out the other side . The other bullet passed between the ribs and passed out the other side no follow up shot was needed on either deer . I would think if the core was not firmly filling the jacket the jacket would have shed and it did not . I am certain the rifling rifling would squeeze the jacket firmly into the core at firing .
I Always guessed the load for my .351 WSL load with 170 Gr. JHC was doing 1750 f/s recently I chronographed them and found the only averaged 1570 f/s a bit slow but it was very effective on deer .
firefly 1957, on your pistol bullets. Can you help me understand more about the process?
If you PC before swaging, does the PC come off as you are swaging? If you PC after swaging, do you have to size the bullet?
Ajax111 I have a set of old Pacific dies in .452" and . 357 " that are designed to use in Pacific press to make half Jacket bullets . The problem people had with them was leading from the lead above the Jacket I powder coat/ paint the core and it is expanded fine into the jacket .
A properly cured core Bullet will hold the coating quite well I have even expanded .315" cured bullets all the way to .452". Below is three .185" cores of 60 grains turned into a 45 caliber bullet . These shoot well for me and separate in a soft target but stay intact on wood and metal .
Attachment 318132
These are my coating notes :
I have been using paint starting with powder coat for sometime now these are my notes on bullet coating so far i really like the process.
First method was to wet the powder with acetone and shake and roll bullets in it it until it stuck as solvent evaporated.
Next i used the electrostatic sprayer.
Last i used spray paint Kylon in my case.
All bullets should be degreased no matter how you do the coating some like dry tumbling i have not tried that.
When you bake a batch ALWAYS smash one bullet to make sure the coating does not flake off if it does bake longer and maybe hotter.
You will see a difference in the paint when it is "Cured" it becomes a thin plastic jacket around the bullet.
Some people have had great luck with liquid enamel paint they degreased the bullets and add them to a container with a bit of paint and roll and shake until coated.
NEVER bake in a oven food will be cooked in .
I like spray paint as i can paint them and then handle them , i usually use three coats while they stand on there bases.
Wet application requires handling and can be messy while electrostatic spraying needs to be done on the pan or jig you are baking them in as the powder will fall off if touched.
Do not let bullets touch while baking they will stick together.
Of the methods i use the three coats of spray paint is the thinnest and works best on rifle bullets with long noses. The other two methods are thick enough to engage the rifling of my 30-30 making chambering hard. I shoot the lee 309170 cast soft at 178 grains to an average speed of 2040 fps with good results . I have also shot cast and swaged .38 bullets in the 1700 fps range fromA a ten inch contender with good results. Most of my loads are common 38& 45 acp velocities no loads that have been properly "CURED" have leaded my bores.
I have also started loading higher levels for the 45-70 shooting powder painted or powder coated bullets to of 405 grains (417 as cast) at 1900 f/s and the Lee 330 grain mold cast soft (354 grains as cast) @ 2168 f/s both these loads shoot under 2" at 100 yards
IF You use the powder coat paint wet, I use acetone but other solvents that evaporate will work . I put about a teaspoon of powder in a can or jar add a bit of acetone to make the paint wet (runny wet) then wash the boolits in acetone or alcohol dump the liquid and add them to the can/jar with paint shake and roll until they are coated then remove the lid and roll until the paint sticks well. At that point i dump them out stand them on a baking tray on non stick aluminum foil or wax paper and bake them near or at 400 degrees for an hour . They are sized after they cool. Do not bake in oven that will be used for food again the foil or wax paper is used to keep paint from tray if temperatures go above 400 wax paper can darken and get brittle. I now use a silicone baking sheet some paint does stick to it but it works well for me the bullets are stood on points or bases not touching to bake .
Paint has very little mass bumps and blotches seem not to adversely affect accuracy i should test this further but have not yet as i get all the accuracy i need for now .
I have since swaged some coated .185 lead wire and made .224 bullets they did not lead the barrel at about 3000 f/s my dies burr the bullet base and accuracy was awful . I used the cup from a large rifle primer and swaged the core into it as a gas check to get rid of burr accuracy improved quite a bit.
Thank you for the information! I have a C and H swager for pistol bullets and a mess of 1/2 jackets. I have been reluctant to use them because of the leading issue.
I don't have any experience with PC. With your procedure it looks like something I can try.
Again, Thank you for the in-depth information.
Hope you have had as much success as I have I have gone almost completely to spray enamel paint baked on . If I d not care about color I can still get cans of good paint as low as $3.99 and it does a lot of bullets .
Recently at a gun show I bought a bag of copper plated .38 Hollow based wad cutters even at 700 f/s they shot terrible recovering them in snow showed the plating was slipping in the rifling . I sprayed them and baked them and same load went from 6 inch plus groups to 1 inch ! I also loaded some real hot backwards in 357 Magnum they also shot quite well at close range . One fired that way into a gallon water jug did not exit only bits of lead was found.
The HBWC was loaded backwards and seated to same depth as a 158 bullet load of Little Gun is supposed to give 1500 f/s . The bullets where snug in the cylinder throats but loaded and shot fine no pressure signs . The layer of paint was thin enough that bullets di not need to be resized.
i use Napthalene - it breaks down natural waxes (Lanolin) well and isn't as nasty to work with as Acetone or MEK.
The RCBS or Lyman case lube has worked great for me since they are water soluble. Makes core and jacket cleaning super simple.
For core seating or point forming I switch to the lanolin though.
Where can I get Woolite from?Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsOff
I'm not sure where you are located, but around here Woolite is available at most Drug, Grocery stores.
Anywhere selling laundry detergent.
I found Woolite in local Target but also ordered some on Amazon before. Its a game changer for me! My SS pins were so dirty, they looked dark and grey and clump together, now add dirty range brass and it was a mess that left my brass dull even tumbling for couple hours. Once I added Woolite, I couldn't believe how black the water came out! Actually took several cycles to fully restore my pins to be fully clean.
I recommend you order the bigger jug rather then small bottle. I transferred it to a used shampoo bottle that has a pump dispenser, its clear and all it takes one pump per drum load. I noticed it works better even with plain dirty range brass. The brass also stays bright and doesn't dull like it happens after using Dawn dish soap often. I still use Dawn if I am just going through large batches of range pickup brass.
Another trick with cores after washing is to rinse them with boiling water in the end, strain them and they will dry a lot quicker but if I want to use them right away I use a heatgun on a metal pan or strainer, also using old incandescent 60W lightbulb with a metal dome enclosure and it will heat them up real hot in minutes! Just make sure you're using metal container and not put them on any cloth as I learned it WILL burn it.
Also someone mentioned the Woolite doesn't remove the scale after annealing - it works just fine! The pins do the work, I don't think soap really makes the difference. When I do the annealing in batches in the kiln, I dump them in 50-50 diluted vinegar with water solution right after I take them from the kiln. It gives it interesting yellow color, like a mate gold, then I transfer to the tumbler I dump the same solution and add water if necessary and soap and tumble it for an hour or so. It comes out real nice shiny gold color, just make sure to rinse out well later as vinegar is pretty strong acid.
I give my cores and jackets a good wash in MEK. Nasty stuff I know so I use gloves and do the washing outside. There may be better options but it’s worked for me. As far as core jacket adhesion I actually use plumbers flux and melt/solder the cores to the clean jackets then run the core seating operation. I have not had a core jacket separation since I’ve started doing this. Word of warning though. After soldering the cores to the jackets boil the bullets in soapy water then rinse. The salts from the flux will rust the devil out of your dies. Sorry I’m just not buying the citric acid etching bond thing. It may but I can’t see how