The question is in the title. I see alot of people at the local matches shooting mini mags for the extra velocity, so I do the same as a newbie but is it really necessary? My rifle shoots .75" at 50 with CCI standard and about an inch with mini mag target. I would rather take the extra accuracy but not if it will not knock em down.
If you’re shooting rimfire sized silhouettes any std velocity will knock them over. I shot rimfire silhouette for years and it was very rare to hit a target that didn’t go over. Any full bullet impact would take them down. If you’re shooting center fire field pistol targets, sometimes the rams won’t go over, but that’s true even with high velocity .22lr rimfire. Take the accuracy every time.
and don't forget to complain that some of your targets "weren't going down 'last weekend'";
that way the others will stick with their less-accurate Minimags, lol. ;-)
I don't know the rules of the game or distances involved, but something else to think on:
While you probably know the distances and will eventually figure out the elevation corrections for your trajectory, a faster round that might not be blown around in a crosswind as much may offer a practical advantage over a slower match round that's only slightly more accurate. Also consider a slower round spends a little more time in the barrel while you're wobbling around on target. If the ammo groups smaller than your smallest target when the rifle is benched on sandbags, the human factor of hitting that target offhand is going to be the far bigger challenge. No sense in spending for the high-grade ammo if Thunderbolts will do (and they very well might).
My experience with Thunderbolts is they might work IF and that is a big IF they go off.
I call those ThunderdudsQuote:
Originally Posted by Finster101
I shall HAPPILY take all of yours. To the point of the OP's topic, it's a bulk-box round that will reliably knock over empty 12 gauge hulls for me at 50 yards. Have had good luck with CCI Blazer as well. There is a time and a place for the additional Q.C. that goes into the true "match grade" stuff - like when you're strapped up in jacket and sling shooting International Small Bore targets on which the X-ring is smaller than the diameter of your bullet. That may not be required of the LARF game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finster101
When I shot a .308 bolt gun in Highpower, I used discounted pull-down 147 grain FMJBT bullets from surplus NATO 7.62 ammo for my 200 and 300 yard ammo and saved the Sierra Matchkings for 600 based on the logic that I was able to use them to generate a sub-1-MOA load which was all the targets used in the game required, and that running the rifle in standing, sitting, or rapid fire with me as the "flawed human" on the trigger was not going to exceed the capabilities of that round.
I merely state to learn what the competition needs and choose accordingly. No sense buying 91 octane when 87 will do.
I play the 22rf lever rifle silhouette game. About 25 years worth. The CCI standard velocity are a very good choice and much better than the Mini Mags. For those of you that don't know, it is a 100 meter game starting with the Chickens at 40 meters. The target are the 50% of full size which are larger than the 22rf silhouette. They are thin and light so they go down fine with standard velocity ammo.Quote:
Originally Posted by pdgoutdoors
In general, the accuracy is much better than Mini Mags at 40 yards and by the time you are shooting rams at 100 meters the mini mags are of little use and standard velocity is better in wind than the faster high velocity rounds.
So, at roughly the same price, and in every other way, CCI standard velocity is the best choice.
I shoot CCI standard velocity for chickens and pigs and Agila Super Extra for turkeys and rams . I run 2 different ammo for more of sight setting purposes . Which I think I'm getting flyers when switching , going to try CCI all the way through . But back to the original? , CCI SV will take all targets . I've taken the rams with CCI SV in my 10" Contender and Ruger MK4 .
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In silhouette shooting at 100 on the pistol size targets, you actually need the 40 grain solids to be 100% on the rams at all times. A 36 grain HP gives up 10% bullet weight, but 12% energy on target. The problem with standard velocity is it changes from super to sub sonic when shot at 100. The change creates a distance zone of unstable performance. Thus you are normally better off at sub sonic only or super sonic only, ammo, from start to finish on a 100 yard or meter match.
Anything will shoot at 25 and most anything will shoot at 50. 75 yards is where the wheat gets separated from the chaff. Plus the 75 yard turkey is the most difficult target, primarily due to its irregular shape, which tends to draw the eye's focus to the target vs the sights.
Most guns will shoot Federal Classic, copper plated 40 grain in the 100 round plastic box. You can use a rim gauge if you wish. Had several guages, found in multiple tests that running the ammo, might give you a target, might.
You made a mistake here: Std velocity DOES NOT transition from super sonic to sub sonic between 75 and 100 yards. Std velocity is NEVER super sonic at any distance. It’s high velocity ammo that makes that transition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapier
Shot SV in handgun silhouette for years. The only time it had troubles was when the wind came from behind the rams. Lever gun got going about the time I moved to smallbore hunting rifle. Does the lever rifle use the centerfire hunters pistol targets? Those rams could have trouble with SV. You may have to make head or hind end shots. Best vertical is over the front leg but that's too close to center mass.
Oh yeah, what NSB said. I can't see the box from here but I think it says 1070 FPS.
100% agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by NSB
JSIZEMORE, Keep in mind the 22rf targets are made of very thin steel. The 22rf targets, even though they are the (large) 1/2 size target, they are much thinner than the 1/2 size centerfire targets. It doesn't take anything to knock them over. A standard velocity 40 grain bullet is a sure deal even on rams. Various lots of Standard Velocity ammo I have chronographed in my singleshots have run 1050's to low 1080's in my rifles with 26 to 30 inch barrels. I have not checked speed with the Marlin 39A to know what it runs.
At one of our local matches we can shoot two rifles, a lever rifle class and a singleshot class. In addition to the Marlin 39A, I shoot a Ballard Singleshot 22rf pictured below.
I started shooting silhouette 44 years ago and have shot every version of that game expect air rifle. 1/5, 3/8. 1/2. and full scale....at ranges from Idaho to Florida and from Arizona to Ohio, with rifle and handgun. I currently host matches for Cowboy rifle at two ranges here in Louisiana. I also have been making those targets since the very beginning. During those 44 years I have seen just about every situation that can cause a target not to fall with a good hit on every size of silhouette target. The problem can usually be traced to a non-standard target, a target in poor condition, or the way the target was set on it's stand....or the stand itself. In regards to 22LR Cowboy Rifle, the Ram is supposed to be made from 3/16" steel and there is a standard for the size of the feet and the way the target should be set on it's stand. If that ram target is correct to specifications you should never have a problem knocking them down with standard velocity ammunition. Sadly some ranges cut out targets with no regard to set standards, usually just cutting the targets from whatever metal they have access to. Larger feet and thicker steel on that ram can and will cause an issue. So my suggestion is the ammo you use will have to be determined by which range you choose to pursue the sport. If everything is to specification, standard velocity will not let you down.
I didn't shoot that game. I ran matches for IHMSA and NRA hunter pistol matches and NRA smallbore hunter rifle. I had quit running matches by the time cowboy/lever rifle matches started but they were being run with the hunter pistol matches. I thought they were required to use the hunter pistol centerfire targets but that's been 18 or 19 years ago. 22lr SV ammo with a 10" contender was somewhere in the vicinity of 950 fps and with the wind out of the north, which most of the ranges I shot at in N.C. were oriented, in the winter shooters were left frustrated with good center hits. I had my share even when I went to Eley HV solid. Most times it didn't have any trouble. I bought a Marlin Levermatic 57 to maybe get in the game but smallbore kept me occupied trying to move up in classification in both rifles.
There are three versions of the Cowboy Lever Rifle game. CLA uses full size targets with the 30-30 cartridge being in common use. Pistol Cartridge category uses the same targets as the NRA Hunter pistol and 357 Mag is common there and that was 3/8" thick steel for all targets. Cowboy Rifle 22LR specifies 3/8" for chickens and pigs, 1/4" for turkeys, and 3/16" for rams.Quote:
Originally Posted by jsizemore
I'm guessing the full size CLA were shot on the 200 yard range and the other 2 were shot at half size targets on the 100 yard range. There was the 22lr cowboy rifle at Bradford in the early 2000's. I was busy with the handgun thing, not paying too close attention.
Thanks for the info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsizemore
This is correct
The only ammo I've ever used for rimfire silhouette is WW Super-X 40 grain that was loaded to about 1,280 ft/sec. Mainly because the local stores always had it in stock cheap. I wasn't a serious competitor since I was shooting a Kimber sporter but all the guys I shot with used heavy barrel Anschutz rifles. Even they had decided that the same ammo was the best bang for the buck considering it's an off hand contest. This ammo always knocked Rams down when hit halfway decent. I sure hated those Turkeys though because of the irregular shape and actual tiny round target area. Also did not like the fact that rimfire group size is not linear out to 100 yards. 100 yard groups would be nearly twice what 75 yard groups were sometimes.
This is a good reason to use a higher quality, subsonic ammo. HV ammo suffers from a loss of stability as it makes the sonic transition on the way to 100 yards and group sizes get larger past 50 yards. I have done extensive testing of ammo at 100 yards. Quality subsonic ammo gives better group sizes at the longer distances. But I guess it all boils down to what value is placed on performance expectations in whatever shooting sport a person chooses.Quote:
Originally Posted by 35 Rem
Actually, "standard" velocity 22 LR ammunition of most makes will run 1175 - 1225 fps at 10 feet from the muzzle from 18 - 26" barrel rifles. That is from actual chronographing and they are sonic as the "crack" is distinctive when a suppressed rifle is used. However, they usually transition subsonic very quickly but they are, indeed, "sonic" to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by NSB
I think the classic Winchester and Remington Standard Velocity are Supersonic. They list there product both at 1150 fps.
CCI lists at 1070
The Tippmann I had lists 1050
Aguila at 1085
SK standard at 1073
Target and Match ammo, which can be confusing some times... much of which is just subsonic
R-50 lists it at 1082
Agulia Match at 1080
All the Eley if not listed as Supersonic is 1075 Target, Club and up to to Ten-X - Non of Eley products subscribe to the Standard Velocity moniker.
Some of the match ammo is just slightly hot
R-100 is 1131 fps
SK Longrange is 1099
Lapua Super longrange is 1106
All the match grades of Lapua are < 1099
The several makers of Biathlon ammo, some of which is high grade in both accuracy and price, when shot in more normal air temperatures run slightly faster than the 1075 norm for accuracy, at around 1100 FPS due to the suppressed velocity's of shooting in very cold outdoor winter conditions. I have to admit, I have not clocked the Biathlon ammo in below zero weather to see how much it slows down. The fact that it does is in the literature.
It appears "Standard Velocity" means what ever the manufacture wants it to mean. The CCI SV product, which is very common and shoots well above it modest price point, at a listed 1075 fps, maybe influences some of us into thinking that is what all of it is. Or, is some kind of "standard". Clearly, as Larry Gibson pointed out above, that is not the case.
Standards vary.
Based on what?Quote:
Originally Posted by elmacgyver0
And as far as velocity goes, your particular firearm probably wont deliver the stated velocity. It could be higher or lower.
I have 6 different 22 LR rifles and find the velocities are fairly consistent between them. I use my suppressor on 4 of them with barrels of 18" to 25". All ammunition I have tested so far listed as "standard velocity", including some target listed as "standard velocity", has been sonic as evidenced by the chronograph readings and the snap or crack out in front. CCI "Match with a velocity listed at 1070 fps and CCI "Suppressor" 22LR listed at 970 fps are subsonic and excellent choices. Several makes of higher grade match 22LR, such as Lapua Center X and Midas+, are subsonic. I just picked up some Aguila 40 gr "subsonic" but have not had time to test it.Quote:
Originally Posted by high standard 40
Thanks for the reply, Larry. We can always rely on you for good information. How close are the velocities you measure to the advertised velocity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Gibson
Not 22LR, but years ago I used my Oehler 33 to check some 130 grain Remington 270 Win ammo out of a Rem 700 and it was nearly 150 fps slower than factory advertised velocity.
Also a faster bullet is moved MORE by wind, not less. Maybe counter-intuitive, but it's true. Has to do with the rate of deceleration.Quote:
Originally Posted by NSB
This is very true. As a stand alone statement, it holds up very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by uscra112
However, all 22rf ammo, both Standard velocity and Hi-velocity (except the hiper velocity) operate in the Trans-sonic range. This gets to be a very complicated subject.
Surprisingly they were pretty close to advertised. The new CCI "match at 1070 fps was very, very close to that and actually was spot on out of my 10/22.Quote:
Originally Posted by high standard 40
Back in the day before Oehler made chronographs that were easy to use and accurate the ammunition companies most often used 26" test barrels and advertised the highest velocity attained, not the average velocity. After the advent of readily available and affordable chronographs demonstrated the disparity of what was advertised and what was reality the advertised velocities became more realistic.
MarketingQuote:
Originally Posted by Chill Wills
Standard velocity as defined by marketing or standard velocity that is actually subsonic in many guns? No real objection to your observation, but really should separate 22rf ammo into 4 classes, sub-sonic, "standard", Hi-velocity, and hyper velocity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Wills
Sure. I take your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ulav8r
I separate it for my needs into Match ammo of various quality - almost all of which is < 1100 fps and built for accuracy, and then cheap plinking/utility ammo, of which most is the Hi-Velocity product and promotional ammo.
In the case of CCI and some other manufactures product, it is both sub-sonic and described on the box as Standard Velocity.
For my part, this is a horse that is beat to death.
Some recent chronographed 10 shot test strings with start screen of M35P at 10'.
From 10/22;
CCI Blazer gr; 1180 fps
CCI Mini Group; 1092 fps
Winchester white box; 1145 fps
Remington Golden Sabre; 1197 fps
Fed bulk 40; 1241 fps
Rem Yellow Jacket; 1430 fps
Rem Thunderbolt; 1201 fps
From Norinco TU-KKW w/26.5" barrel;
CCI CB Long; 721 fps
Rem 22 Short HV; 971 fps
CCI Suppressor (970 fps); 935 fps
CCI Match (1070 fps); 1071 fps.
Remington Target; 1171 fps
CCI Mini Group; 1112 fps
35 Rem: Also did not like the fact that rimfire group size is not linear out to 100 yards. 100 yard groups would be nearly twice what 75 yard groups were sometimes.
I found this in trials also. Tested at 40, 60, 77 and 100M as best I could. CCI standard was less than an inch at 77M but over 2" at 100. I used the CCI trhu the turkeys and went to Eley standard (brown box) for 100. Eley standard was almost half the group size of the CCI std. This in a Marlin 880SQ model.
Even being an offhand game my scores went up about 50% on the ram line and I think the ammo was helpful in that.
CCI SV is my go-to for standard 22lr. It's what I use the most of. I used to used RWS for my CZ455. It was expensive and I wasn't shooting in competition and the difference wasn't worth double the cost. What was and is worth the cost is Wolf Rifle Match, if you're in a competition, with my rifle. Buy a box of Eley, Apulia SV, CCI SV, and Wolf or SK. Shoot for groups with each box, cleaning in between each box. See what shoots best. Won't cost that much and you'll get the info you need.