Hunting accuracy from fast twist (1-10) barrel at full jacketed velocity?

Who has successfully gotten usable hunting accuracy (especially past 100 yards) at full jacketed velocity? I want to hear about it: cartridge, boolit, velocity, accuracy.

I tried a little paper patching several years ago. I gave up on it, but looking at my load notes, it appears that I may have been close to what I was looking for. Anyway, I just obtained a new 30-06, and my interest in finding a high velocity pp load for it (for hunting purposes) has been renewed. But I'm kinda wondering how many people have actually found a stable load with usable accuracy.

If I can't reasonably obtain what I want at full jacketed velocity then I might as well go the regular cast method.

Thanks for your input!

outdoorfan as much as I like high velocity cast loads they are a poor choice for hunting any game other then varmints due to their explosive performance. Now if you knew for sure that you'd be shooting at your game only at a long distance that the velocity dropped to the more reason game taking speed then it would be okay. Even around 1800 fps a soft cast bullet does a lot of damage and that's bad if you want more meat for your supper table. Try loading some lower velocity loads and test them out and you'll see what I mean.

I hear ya. What I have in mind is 50/50 ww/soft wd'ed for around 20 bhn. I would then anneal the noses for good expansion at lower velocity, but hopefully still retain good game-taking performance at strike velocities of maybe 2400-2500 fps. Of course, this would be with a 180+ grain boolit, so sectional density would be good.

When I had my last '06, I ran a 200 grain spitzer at 2400 fps (not paper-patched), but I never tested it in water jugs to see what it was doing. I did shoot deer at 100-230 yards with good performance.

What's full jacketed velocity? If you are talking about round-nosed bullets of around 220 gr. at around 1900ft./sec. in the early .30 calibre jacketed-bullet rifles, it isn't too difficult to duplicate a performance that has been successfully used on just about every big game on earth. I wouldn't argue against paper patching being the best way to do it. If you are talking about the much higher velocities subsequently achieved with jacketed bullets, performance is likely to be difficult and erratic. If one bullet in a hundred malfunctions, it will be the game head or match-winning shot of a lifetime.

If paper-patched bullets really could equal jacketed at the higher velocities, don't you think some bullet company would have devised a mass-producible and probably patentable way of doing something similar? Even heat-shrink Teflon tubing would do a splendid job, if it was only consistent enough in thickness to preserve concentricity of mass. It is a point worth keeping an eye on. But a few years back I bought several brands and found them too uneven in thickness.

A hard alloy is likely to break up where a softer one would mushroom, and a hollow point is likely to turn into a cylinder and numerous small fragments. I never got around to shooting game with a .40-82 bullet cast with a strip of aluminium foil in the nose, leaving the first ⅛in. or shade less connected and the following ⅜in. split, duplicating the old cigarette paper dodge. But it held together in flight well when tested on targets, and I think it would produce a forked bullet in malleable alloy and three usefully sized chunks in a hard one.

Full jacketed in my mind is ~2700 fps from a 180 grainer in 30-06. Maybe 2500-2550 from a 200 grainer.

For the 303 Brit, I had a workable paper patched boolit that I designed for use on small game as well as feral pig. The only small game I shot with it were turkey and it worked very well for that. Performance was great. Full penetration of course - it's kinda hard to stop a 230 gr boolit! ;-) Actually, I shot turkey with two boolit designs the second being a 208gr round nose hollow point.

The dual purpose boolit had a huge cup shaped hollow in the nose with a thin rim, the idea being that on pig it would present a flat nose while on turkey or rabbit it would present a mushroom. The latter part worked but wasn't necessary as the round nose with a small hollow in the nose demonstrated. That hollow nose was from the nose pour system I was using. The reason for such heavy 208 gr was to fill the throat of the rifle with the idea that it would be more accurate than a shorter boolit. That plus it develops full pressure for a lower velocity. A lower velocity heavy would be expected to perform better with limited expansion and good penetration even if the boolit were to over expand. That was the theory anyway. Test tube tests did confirm that.

Since then I have made lighter boolits at 194 grs that work just fine. I also have a 167 gr that seems to be fine and I have tested a 147 gr subsonic boolit that was pretty accurate. I also dropped the hollow nose although my casting method now calls for a return to the hollow nose - it's just a function of the nose pour funnel.

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Originally Posted by outdoorfan

I hear ya. What I have in mind is 50/50 ww/soft wd'ed for around 20 bhn. I would then anneal the noses for good expansion at lower velocity, but hopefully still retain good game-taking performance at strike velocities of maybe 2400-2500 fps. Of course, this would be with a 180+ grain boolit, so sectional density would be good.

When I had my last '06, I ran a 200 grain spitzer at 2400 fps (not paper-patched), but I never tested it in water jugs to see what it was doing. I did shoot deer at 100-230 yards with good performance.

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I shoot a 180 grain cast bullet from my various 308's. It's the Mihec 30 Silhouette. I won't hunt with it cast from 50/50 WD because it has a rather pointed nose and is too hard in my opinion. I feel it would shoot through a deer as though it were cast of Linotype. But now Mihec has that bullet with a very small hollow point, so small I thought it not to be benificial that is until I tried some on water jugs at 300 yards in comparison with the solid noses. Big difference. Mihec also makes a mold for one called the 30 caliber hunting bullet with a much larger hollow point. It's devastating.

I too consider full house loads in the 06 at the tail end of the 2000 fps.

I will have to go to Miha's website to check out that boolit you are referring to.

As to the 50/50 wd'ed alloy, it's really easy to stand the boolits in some water and torch anneal the noses for the few boolits you want to launch at game. Of course, I understand most people don't want to do this.

My load notes from 2009 show that I initially tested (very briefly) .004 computer paper with the 196 gr LBT spitzer that I was using at that time. With H4350 at shot charges between 50-54 grains in one shot increments, velocities were from 2,368-2550. 3-shot groups were between 9/16 and 1 13/16.

I don't know why I didn't continue there. What was I thinking?!

After looking at that 180 MP silhouette, it looks like about a .1 meplat, which is what that LBT spitzer had. With the annealed noses, expansion was not a problem at over 200 yards.

To see the benefit of paper patching. There is a technique needing to be followed. Any deviation. "You won't be pleased with your results."

Right on.

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Originally Posted by outdoorfan

After looking at that 180 MP silhouette, it looks like about a .1 meplat, which is what that LBT spitzer had. With the annealed noses, expansion was not a problem at over 200 yards.

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BTW the first 180 Sil was cut by BaBore and it may have very well weighed 180 fully dressed, that is gascheck and lube, but the molds from Mihec throw a bullet that is about in the 172 range naked with 50/50 alloy. Just thought I'd mention that. Were you able to find that 308 hunting bullet? It appears at first glance to look like a 30 Sil with a large hollow point, but it is in fact a little different.

Here's a link to the 308 hollow point hunting bullet.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...hunting+bullet

Here's Miha's website link for that bullet.

https://www.mp-molds.com/e-shop/mold...-hunting-hp-gc

Thanks for that link. I did look over that hunting bullet really well. It is my opinion that in the 30 caliber bore, it is better to have heavy for caliber. I would feel a little bit differently in the 35 bore going with a lighter bullet because there's more width to withstand the impact of bone or whatever when hunting. I think I'm just a little uncomfortable with anything under about 180 grains in the 30 bore when pushed to the velocities that I want to push them too.

My new rifle is still at the gunsmith getting some added touches on it. He is going to cerrosafe the chamber for me to figure out what the dimensions are. I may end up having to throat it out a little bit to accept a longer bullet, but we'll see. I don't care for the bore riding concept, so I try to avoid that. But we'll see what happens.

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Originally Posted by outdoorfan

Thanks for that link. I did look over that hunting bullet really well. It is my opinion that in the 30 caliber bore, it is better to have heavy for caliber. I would feel a little bit differently in the 35 bore going with a lighter bullet because there's more width to withstand the impact of bone or whatever when hunting. I think I'm just a little uncomfortable with anything under about 180 grains in the 30 bore when pushed to the velocities that I want to push them too.

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You are correct in what you said about a heavier bullet. Now if we're dealing with the original 30-06 with a 10 twist it was designed originally for a 220 grain bullet. With that said I've found generally that the 06 prefers the longer heavier bullets. That is not to say it won't shoot the lighter shorter ones well.

In your next post you mentioned that your gunsmith is going to make a cerosafe cast of your throat in your new rifle. You do know that you have to mic cerosafe as soon as possible because after a while it's dimensions change. You might be advised to make a pound cast of the throat using as pure lead you have. Back to the cerosafe mic it right away and write down the measures because like I mentioned it changes dimensions after a period of time. Sorry about being reduntant about it.

Hi outdoorfan,

I use this boolit from accurate http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=30-190P-D.png It is designed for paper patching, and Iv'e been shooting it in a stock M700 30-06 with more than just acceptable results. I size to .301 and double wrap with green bar printer paper. I then lightly lube the patch with White Label BAC, and size again to .310. Iv'e been using just range scrap alloy for this which is dead soft. My powder of choice is Winchester 760. Other slow powders worked well too, but I settled on 760 for my loads. I started with the minimum jacketed charge for the weight, and worked up. I pretty much followed P-Dawgs instructions in the stickies here and it worked out well for me. The boolit does not blow up on game, and is very, very accurate. And yes, it gives velocities "close" to jacketed full velocity loads. Obviously there are more than a few ways to skin this cat, but this has worked well for me in my rifle. Sounds like you were on the right track before, so you will realize that some experimentation (boolit diameter and patch thickness) will be necessary to achieve what your'e looking for.

I was aware it shrinks, but I assumed the 'smith knows what he's doing to figure the correct dimensions in a proper manner. Who knows. I'll inquire further with him on that. I agree a pure lead chamber cast is probably best. I might end up doing that anyway. My mindset was that I didn't want to go pounding on this new Kimber, but I may have to. LOL!

I'm sure the lighter bullets (boolits) will shoot great, and I intend to have a practice load using a lighter boolit around 1600-1800 fps, but I want my business load to be heavy and fast enough. We'll see. Who knows. I'm a long way from getting where I want to be. LOL!

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Originally Posted by outdoorfan

I was aware it shrinks, but I assumed the 'smith knows what he's doing to figure the correct dimensions in a proper manner. Who knows. I'll inquire further with him on that. I agree a pure lead chamber cast is probably best. I might end up doing that anyway. My mindset was that I didn't want to go pounding on this new Kimber, but I may have to. LOL!

I'm sure the lighter bullets (boolits) will shoot great, and I intend to have a practice load using a lighter boolit around 1600-1800 fps, but I want my business load to be heavy and fast enough. We'll see. Who knows. I'm a long way from getting where I want to be. LOL!

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Yes good idea to mention about the shrinkage of cerosafe to him. Hey in all reality you're really not pounding hard on your rifle to make a pound cast. If you are you're pounding too hard or using too big of a hammer. PM me and I'll explain the better way to do a pound cast.

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Originally Posted by ShooterAZ

Hi outdoorfan,

I use this boolit from accurate http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=30-190P-D.png It is designed for paper patching, and Iv'e been shooting it in a stock M700 30-06 with more than just acceptable results. I size to .301 and double wrap with green bar printer paper. I then lightly lube the patch with White Label BAC, and size again to .310. Iv'e been using just range scrap alloy for this which is dead soft. My powder of choice is Winchester 760. Other slow powders worked well too, but I settled on 760 for my loads. I started with the minimum jacketed charge for the weight, and worked up. I pretty much followed P-Dawgs instructions in the stickies here and it worked out well for me. The boolit does not blow up on game, and is very, very accurate. And yes, it gives velocities "close" to jacketed full velocity loads. Obviously there are more than a few ways to skin this cat, but this has worked well for me in my rifle. Sounds like you were on the right track before, so you will realize that some experimentation (boolit diameter and patch thickness) will be necessary to achieve what your'e looking for.

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Paper patching giving you a really good bullet and accuracy if you do it all correctly. Thing is I hatepatching patching because for me it's too gawd awful slow. LOL

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Originally Posted by ShooterAZ

Hi outdoorfan,

I use this boolit from accurate http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=30-190P-D.png It is designed for paper patching, and Iv'e been shooting it in a stock M700 30-06 with more than just acceptable results. I size to .301 and double wrap with green bar printer paper. I then lightly lube the patch with White Label BAC, and size again to .310. Iv'e been using just range scrap alloy for this which is dead soft. My powder of choice is Winchester 760. Other slow powders worked well too, but I settled on 760 for my loads. I started with the minimum jacketed charge for the weight, and worked up. I pretty much followed P-Dawgs instructions in the stickies here and it worked out well for me. The boolit does not blow up on game, and is very, very accurate. And yes, it gives velocities "close" to jacketed full velocity loads. Obviously there are more than a few ways to skin this cat, but this has worked well for me in my rifle. Sounds like you were on the right track before, so you will realize that some experimentation (boolit diameter and patch thickness) will be necessary to achieve what your'e looking for.

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Thanks for sharing!

Outdoorfan, there are different alloys of cerrosafe, those which shrink, expand, or are neutral. You might want to find out which your 'smith is using. Their website will have info on percentage of shrinkage or expansion for each alloy so you can figure actual size.

As for full-steam velocities, I experimented with an 8x57mm, shooting a PP'd H&G .312 cast version of the 173gr spritzer service boolit. As a bare boolit, accuracy went south beyond 1500fps or so in various .30's, which is typical of long-ogive cast, but PP'ing it decreases its unsupported ogive length and increases its bearing surface. It gives me 2" at 100 yards over 48gr of Rel 19 in the 8x57. Other .30 molds exhibit the same effect when patched to the 8mm throat. I vote for PP because it increases the range of usable (soft) alloys and the velocities they can be driven to. For your purposes, might I suggest the Lyman 311407, a 180gr Loverin design amenable to easy sizing to finished diameter after patching and having the advantage of a meplat of .08 or .10, from the look of it. Another candidate is 311041, allegedly 173gr, but mine cast of WW are 180gr. The bore dia. nose handily patches up to groove diameter in a .30, thus increasing engagement length to approx. 80% of physical length, but which also means adjustments in OAL. These are not heavy-for-caliber, but they do work well.

The paper I use is 100% cotton drafting vellum available in art supply places or online, usually .0025", two wraps for .30, three for 8mm. Strips are cut from the narrow edge (the end) of the sheet to provide stretch when wet and shrinkage on drying. I no longer use a twisted tail, instead patching from the heel on a GC design to half way up the ogive and wiping the last 1/2" end of patch with wood glue (gluing paper to paper) to keep it in place. Shrinkage below the bottom driving band prevents the patch from slipping when seating. Gas checks can be applied, but do not seem to improve accuracy. With a worn throat, they will allow the boolit to be seated a touch farther out and still have good retention in the case.

I didn't know that there are variations with cerrosafe.

Thanks for your suggestions and tips!

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Originally Posted by outdoorfan

Who has successfully gotten usable hunting accuracy (especially past 100 yards) at full jacketed velocity? I want to hear about it: cartridge, boolit, velocity, accuracy.

I tried a little paper patching several years ago. I gave up on it, but looking at my load notes, it appears that I may have been close to what I was looking for. Anyway, I just obtained a new 30-06, and my interest in finding a high velocity pp load for it (for hunting purposes) has been renewed. But I'm kinda wondering how many people have actually found a stable load with usable accuracy.

If I can't reasonably obtain what I want at full jacketed velocity then I might as well go the regular cast method.

Thanks for your input!

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Gas check and powder coating should give you what you are after. I know it can in 308W. You will probably need to add some copper to keep bullet together due to spin rate but accuracy does drop off the higher velocity you go past the optimum speed. People all over the world have used cast bullets for every animal out there so with the proper fit to barrel and chamber you should be able to do the same thing. Get the fit, its a key.

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Full jacketed in my mind is ~2700 fps from a 180 grainer in 30-06. Maybe 2500-2550 from a 200 grainer.

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Outdoorfan - Always go to a vendors loading data website instead of posts guessing what you want.
To this end - Hodgdon/IMR loading data website rifles - put your bullet weights in and you'll get a lot of TESTED information ... http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle
For teasers, the fastest velocity of a 180gr bullet is:
180 GR. SIE SPBT
Hodgdon
Suprform
.308"
3.300"
54.0
2,628
46,200 PSI
59.7
2,840
57,600 PSI

Here's an update. ShooterAZ graciously sent me some of his 195 grain boolits (http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=30-190P-D.png), along with some greenbar paper.

After figuring out how to roll a decent patch (I seem to like the cigarette roller), I fired some test rounds. Absolutely no load development here. The best results were with IMR 4350. 53 grains with a 1x1" tuft of dacron over the powder. Velocity is around 2700 fps. I fired two 3-shot groups of that load at 100 yards on two different days. 13/16 & 1 3/8". At 200 and 300 yards, although testing was not conclusive by any means, it seems that the groups were starting to show some inconsistencies in random fliers/disbursement. I did get minimal chronograph readings down range to suggest that maybe this boolit has around a .235 ballistic coefficient. However, I think the 10 bhn or less that the boolits are that I tested, might be too soft to survive the acceleration forces to keep good accuracy past 100 yards, at least at the full pressures that I tested them at.

Overall, I would say a very good initial success. Thanks again to ShooterAZ for making this possible for me to test.

Now I have a heavyweight mold on order from NOE.Attachment 214211

Don't let your patch ends overlap
and a cardboard wad on the base of the bullet may help as well.
Anything p-dawg said is pretty well gospel.

I tried hard to get a close fit, but no overlap. That cardboard wad, is that boolit diameter? Otherwise, won't that be cause for concern trying to get through the bottleneck of the neck? Just wondering.

Snug neck size and supported in the neck by filler if there is room.
Otherwise I wouldn't do it either.
Stops the wad from getting below neck and causing troubles.
It protects the base from peening from the gunpowder hitting into it upon ignition.
I have used hard wax wads too.
Sometimes it helps sometimes not.

I've used wads under the patch.

How did that work for you, 303Guy?

Attachment 214444


From NOE. 230 grains of Cruise Missile! I wonder how it will do?

Shooter AZ; Would you think your lead is aprox 20-1 or closer to ww? I have plenty of 20-1 and just picked up a pp 301 mould.

I use either range lead or 96/3/1. Both are pretty darn soft. 20/1 should be good to go.

Outdoor fan, please keep us posted on how that new mold works out for you. That is one heavy dude.

Just ordered a .301 and .310 body size dies from NOE for my pp bullet. Have some 16# cotton paper that patches to .314 and will maybe size down to .310 or so ??? All my BP paper is too thin but might work with three wraps? Anyone try that?

We're getting so much snow these days that I can no longer access the field that I've been shooting on. Lol!

Another issue I had trying to size those cruise missiles down is that the .285 Lee die that I opened up wouldn't size such a long piece of soft lead down without bending the boolit. Then I basically ruined the die by opening it up too much trying to find what size it could size the missile down to without distorting it.

Now I have two new .285 Lee dies sitting on the bench that I need to very CAREFULLY open up to .3015 or so, and maybe .305. I already have a .308 on hand. This may not work, but I'll try.

Is there a secret to polishing the die after using emery cloth to open it up?

Secret to polishing (anything):
Progressively finer grits, alternating directions between each grit.

Thanks. I did somehow manage to hone these dies out and get some useability (is that a word?) out of them.

Here are two missiles, one at maybe 9 bhn and other at maybe 12-14 bhn. They sized down fine in three steps. .308, .305, .302. I slightly overdid the .302. I was shooting for .3015. I think/hope it will be fine.

I have no idea when I'll actually be able to shoot them. :roll:

Attachment 214938