Do you suppose you are immune?

Because the world is such a better place now?

Matt 10:22, 24:9 Mark 13:13, Luke 21:12

Acts 5:27-40
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.

29 ¶ Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 ¶ When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

Surely no church of today would brow beat you and threaten you with expulsion because you openly disagree with the leaven they proclaim. . . . .

Strong meat, Claude! We have had it so easy for so long, most of us, even most of us believers, have come to think that it'll always be this way. But it never is, and never has been throughout the history of our species. Troubles, and I mean BIG troubles, like war, etc., always come, and often it's just after we've convinced ourselves that we needn't be prepared for the "bad times" or "lean times" (as with the Great Depression). But they come anyway, notwithstanding whatever we may be thinking or projecting into our future. It's been said "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom." But it's also the price of real peace. If we're not always prepared, and humble enough to realize that bad things can and DO happen, even to the good, well then .... we wind up in situations like WWII, where we weren't prepared for war, and thus, even women at the time HAD to take up welders and hammers and learn to work machines, because most of our able bodied men were in the military, preparing to face our enemies, and hopefully, to overcome and defeat them. Kids had to learn to fend for themselves, and neighbors had to care for neighbors, because there really wasn't much, especially after the Great Depression, to help OTHER than our neighbors and family and friends. From that, and because of the efforts and humility and dedication of so many of our forebears, we won WWII. And, I might add, with the help of the hand of Almighty God, whose hand can be seen in so many instances in that terrible war.

We have always paid the price for our hubris and neglect, and I think we always will. We are becoming VERY hubrisful and neglectful now. I fear what lies ahead of us, for my son and grandsons and DIL. I won't be here all that much longer, probably, but they will. I pray they don't have to reap the payment for our sins of neglect and hubris! That's why I pray so often for a national revival. We need it SO badly right now! God be with us yet a while longer! Amen.

Is this another hand-wringing thread about how we need have our churches keep detritus in their midst or am I missing the point? For my feeble mind finds this disjointed and obtuse and of little value for discussion. I like the Bible verses as it shows the resistence by the jews to the Christian Jews.

You're missing the point, perhaps if you read the references and ascertain the context you might see that.

A simple example, stand against the observation of Easter in almost any given church today and see the reaction when you inform the pastor that it is indeed a pagan holiday, geared at reproduction and fertility, and should not be substituted as the passover.

Websters New World Dictionary college edition, copyright 1966 defines Easter; name of a pagan vernal festival almost coincident in date with paschal festival of the church, an annual Christian festival celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, held on the first Sunday after the date of date the first full moon that occurs on or after March 21.

I have other news for those who have not dismissed this out of hand, the fourteenth day of the first month does not always fall on a Sunday, Just as Christmas does not always fall on a certain day, a certain date, yes, a certain day no. Christmas can fall on any day of the week, just as the passover can fall on any day of the week, and consequently the resurrection of Christ will fall on any day of the week according to the date of the passover, but always on a specific date, three days after the passover.

Do so and see how popular that makes you in the congregation, they'll want you out of their midst in short order.

Before someone tries to say the passover was just for Jews, they may find Ex 12:14 ( you might want to read the entire chapter) interesting, showing it is to be kept throughout our generations, not by the Jews, but by the people of the nation of Israel, of which the vast majority are not Jews.

Once again, before the question arises, no, we are not to offer blood sacrifices, JESUS IS our blood sacrifice, 1 Cor. 5:7

Please, feel free to not join the discussion if it isn't your cup of tea.

I'm sure you'd be ran out on a rail in a bunch of churches if you didn't "tow the line", but as long as you don't stir up too much trouble, who knows.

It's appearing more and more likely, that I it will soon be against the law to practice ones religion if it offends anyone. Then the penalties kick in. Perhaps not beating, but monetary losses, jail, and state retribution. How many of you cary a license from the state that allows you to practice your wage earning living? There are more ways to put a rod across the souls of your feet than literally. If you don't know how many people absolutely abhor Christianity, just read the comments behind on line articles some time!

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Perhaps not beating,

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Consider brow beating, trying to make you look small, trying to intimidate you. But yes Thundar, the wheels are already in motion.

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Originally Posted by claude

You're missing the point, perhaps if you read the references and ascertain the context you might see that.

A simple example, stand against the observation of Easter in almost any given church today and see the reaction when you inform the pastor that it is indeed a pagan holiday, geared at reproduction and fertility, and should not be substituted as the passover.

Websters New World Dictionary college edition, copyright 1966 defines Easter; name of a pagan vernal festival almost coincident in date with paschal festival of the church, an annual Christian festival celebrating the resurrection of Jesus, held on the first Sunday after the date of date the first full moon that occurs on or after March 21.

I have other news for those who have not dismissed this out of hand, the fourteenth day of the first month does not always fall on a Sunday, Just as Christmas does not always fall on a certain day, a certain date, yes, a certain day no. Christmas can fall on any day of the week, just as the passover can fall on any day of the week, and consequently the resurrection of Christ will fall on any day of the week according to the date of the passover, but always on a specific date, three days after the passover.

Do so and see how popular that makes you in the congregation, they'll want you out of their midst in short order.

Before someone tries to say the passover was just for Jews, they may find Ex 12:14 ( you might want to read the entire chapter) interesting, showing it is to be kept throughout our generations, not by the Jews, but by the people of the nation of Israel, of which the vast majority are not Jews.

Once again, before the question arises, no, we are not to offer blood sacrifices, JESUS IS our blood sacrifice, 1 Cor. 5:7

Please, feel free to not join the discussion if it isn't your cup of tea.

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Whatever the times of Easter and Christmas once signified, Christians have appropriated them to celebrate Christ's birth and resurrection. So why would you want to stir up a congregation for no real benefit? I would imagine if you suggested a congregation not celebrate Christmas and Easter you would not be very popular. You probably wouldn't be asked to leave the church though.

Similarly, many of the Proverbs did not originate with Solomon but were lifted from cultures outside Israel and included in the sacred writings. As I was growing up, we used to sing a hymn called What Child is This? to the tune of Greensleeves. Should these be done away with also?

Sometimes fights are not worth having because all they do is cause trouble and don't solve any actual problems.

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Whatever the times of Easter and Christmas once signified, Christians have appropriated them to celebrate Christ's birth and resurrection

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Of course, regardless of the mandates of The Father. You make my point well, thank you.

As to your assumptions about being asked to leave the church, we deal for the most part with what we know.

Truth is always worth the telling, and frankly, to deny the truth is blasphemy and sin, forgivable, but why go there? Or perhaps you disagree and in your eyes it is beneficial to let a lie go uncontested? To let them stay ignorant? At what point is one to draw the line, as Peter did?

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29 ¶ Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

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When is the proper time to just shrug ones shoulders because the truth doesn't matter, perhaps it's OK if one doesn't stand for truth, or care enough about your brothers and sisters to bring to light for them? I will tell you, most don't care, but the few who do should have the chance to decide.

Watchmen, Eze 3:15-21

Your argument makes great sense to the carnal man, to the spiritual man, not so much.

"As I was growing up, we used to sing a hymn called What Child is This? to the tune of Greensleeves. Should these be done away with also"

Love that hymn
Martin Luther used a popular German drinking song as the basis for a hymn. Just like Easter and Christmas, he probably knew there would be cry-babies that could not believe he make a hymn out of a drinking song. Don't celebrate Easter or Christmas if it twists you panties, or pick the dates that you think are consistent with science/history. Start you own church, the Church of We Are the Only Ones who properly celebrate Christmas and Easter Church. How about The Rapture, I'm betting on the Feast of the Trumpets, some year, and that would make a great church as well.

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Originally Posted by jmort

"As I was growing up, we used to sing a hymn called What Child is This? to the tune of Greensleeves. Should these be done away with also"

Love that hymn
Martin Luther used a popular German drinking song as the basis for a hymn. Just like Easter and Christmas, he probably knew there would be cry-babies that could not believe he make a hymn out of a drinking song. Don't celebrate Easter or Christmas if it twists you panties, or pick the dates that you think are consistent with science/history. Start you own church, the Church of We Are the Only Ones who properly celebrate Christmas and Easter Church. How about The Rapture, I'm betting on the Feast of the Trumpets, some year, and that would make a great church as well.

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You still don't understand, but that's OK, one day you will. It's about truth, and believing what God says as opposed to what man says.
You can make all the snide little remarks you wish, but it won't change the truth.

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Originally Posted by claude

As to your assumptions about being asked to leave the church, we deal for the most part with what we know.

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You're correct. I have never been asked to leave a church or someone's home. The reason for this is that I am a good guest. I try not to make messes, belittle others or start trouble for no reason.

Based on some of the stuff I have seen you post here I would not be surprised if you have been asked to leave a Bible study or two and maybe even a church. It is not so much that you look for "hidden truth" that others don't see or agree with, but the fact you claim those who don't see things your way are less spiritual, carnal, willfully blind or generally inferior.

Is all this why "TheArk" is such a success?

My wife and I are going there with our Priest and church group in Aug. and will be visiting other Catholic Monasteries, 6 day trip.

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Originally Posted by Ickisrulz

You're correct. I have never been asked to leave a church or someone's home. The reason for this is that I am a good guest. I try not to make messes, belittle others or start trouble for no reason.

Based on some of the stuff I have seen you post here I would not be surprised if you have been asked to leave a Bible study or two and maybe even a church. It is not so much that you look for "hidden truth" that others don't see or agree with, but the fact you claim those who don't see things your way are less spiritual, carnal, willfully blind or generally inferior.

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Perhaps my questions are a bit to pointed, but I'm not looking to change my approach to soft sell, to coddle. Some people get shook up because many of those things hit to close to home for comfort. Should you or anyone find what I have to bring discomforting, that's unfortunate, truth is still paramount.

Josh 24:14, John 4:23,24, 1John 3:18, By siting those verses I am accusing no one, if they are taken exception to, why?

People appear to have the notion that I set around polishing my fingernails on my lapels and congratulating myself on what a heck of a fine Christian I am, Gods second right hand man. Perhaps those pointing the fingers and suggesting such a scenario might do well to check out their mirror.

If you find something accusatory in the statements I have made here, there is a solution, if you believe I am disruptive rude and a troublemaker, go to Jim, and #1 and lodge a complaint, should they agree with you I will get PM from one or both and the matter will be settled.

Or perhaps start a poll and see if the greater majority want me out of the chapel. I'll abide by the numbers simply because one doesn't stay where they aren't wanted.

One final point, the "hidden truths" are by and large not hidden but overlooked and ignored, and they need to be made open to those who desire truth rather than feel good leaven perpetrated by men.

"If you find something accusatory in the statements I have made here, there is a solution, if you believe I am disruptive rude and a troublemaker, go to Jim, and #1"

Or better yet, we could tell you what we think and not involve them at all. We do not need to call mommy and daddy to clean out the trash. I have never found the need to call mommy and daddy. I think they have enough on their hands than to deal with below-average threads.

There are already churches that don't celebrate any religious holidays, I belong to one of them. We also don't tell congregants what to, and not to celebrate, but treat them all as secular holidays. On the other hand, I know folks that think you are worshipping the spirit in the grove if you have a Christmas tree. We don't celebrate them in worship, but wouldn't condemn ones who do.

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Originally Posted by jmort

"If you find something accusatory in the statements I have made here, there is a solution, if you believe I am disruptive rude and a troublemaker, go to Jim, and #1"

Or better yet, we could tell you what we think and not involve them at all. We do not need to call mommy and daddy to clean out the trash. I have never found the need to call mommy and daddy. I think they have enough on their hands than to deal with below-average threads.

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You certainly can, but you see, you're not a majority. Additionally your continued abusive behavior reflects poorly on you, doesn't hurt me any, but as for you, time will tell.

What many Christians overlook is that God is actually pretty easy going. Jesus said his burden was easy to carry. There are no sins I can think of that do not cause the perpetrator or people around him harm. God prohibits things for our own good, not because he likes bossing us around.

I cannot fathom how celebrating Christmas and Easter on the traditional dates can do anyone any harm. If Jesus is remembered and celebrated, isn't that what it is all about? Claude, can you provide an argument that shows how we are harmed?

Now, let me suggest something else. What good does it do to take away Christmas, Easter or any other holiday from a child? We already have a group of people who, as a rule, do not celebrate these things: Jehovah's Witnesses. I haven't done the research, but I have never met a Second Generation Jehovah's Witness. Those who grew up in Jehovah's Witness households don't grip about the doctrine, they complain about missing out on the holidays and being seen as weirdos at school.

I haven't taken Christmas away, but YOU imply I did, which is not true. I used Christmas as an example of the difference between days and dates, period.

The focus of the thread is this,

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29 ¶ Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

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God sets the dates, God set Passover. Easter, a pagan holiday, was adopted by man as you pointed out.

With that in mind why not just build some more golden calves? Why not participate in grove worship? Why don't we just make it up as we go?

Satan as always drives his wedge between man and God and man seems to be more than willing to go along. If you want to advocated for Satan, you're doing a good job.

I don't care where you try to take this, We ought to obey God rather than men. you, are welcome to choose to do so or not, as you see fit, I'm not stopping you, I'm not judging you, I'm making it clear that God has certain requirements, and that obeying Him is one of them.

You keep using this "reason" you're so proud of, well "reason" this, God set the rules, not me, God says obey my commands, not me, God demands obedience, not me. If you can't grasp that, you are wasting your time as well as mine, and disregarding truth.

Don't lose sight of the subject and the object here, the subject is God, the object is to obey God. No more, and certainly no less.

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Originally Posted by claude

I haven't taken Christmas away, but YOU imply I did, which is not true. I used Christmas as an example of the difference between days and dates, period.

The focus of the thread is this,



God sets the dates, God set Passover. Easter, a pagan holiday, was adopted by man as you pointed out.

With that in mind why not just build some more golden calves? Why not participate in grove worship? Why don't we just make it up as we go?

Satan as always drives his wedge between man and God and man seems to be more than willing to go along. If you want to advocated for Satan, you're doing a good job.

I don't care where you try to take this, We ought to obey God rather than men. you, are welcome to choose to do so or not, as you see fit, I'm not stopping you, I'm not judging you, I'm making it clear that God has certain requirements, and that obeying Him is one of them.

You keep using this "reason" you're so proud of, well "reason" this, God set the rules, not me, God says obey my commands, not me, God demands obedience, not me. If you can't grasp that, you are wasting your time as well as mine, and disregarding truth.

Don't lose sight of the subject and the object here, the subject is God, the object is to obey God. No more, and certainly no less.

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Why do you feel you must be so obnoxious?

Why do you think Christians should observe the Passover? Christians are not under the Old Testament rules. This is very clear in the New Testament.

Observing the Resurrection on Easter is a far way from worshiping idols.

Ickisrulz,

Do you believe this statement?

29 ¶ Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

^^^
Your posts seem as if they came right out of the Unabomber's cabin.
Is it not axiomatic that "we should obey God and not man?"
You seem to think you are the sole arbitor of what churches should do.
How about this name for your new church:
"The Only Church That Obeys God and not Man and Celebrates Christmas and Easter the the dates Ordained by God."
Yes or no???

Ickisrulz,

Do you believe this statement? yes/no

Matt 5:17-20
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Ickisrulz,

Do you believe this statement? yes/no

(Malachi 3:6) "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

If you believe the three statements there is no room to argue, if you do not, what is your motive?

[QUOTE=claude;4107233]Ickisrulz,

Do you believe this statement? yes/no

(Malachi 3:6) "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

If you believe the three statements there is no room to argue, if you do not, what is your motive?[/QUOTE

Posting scriptures out of context does not make a convincing argument.

I don't think you have a good handle on the transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Gentiles are not required to become Jews or live like Jews. We are not required to keep the Passover (or the other two prescribed feasts) or get circumcised. Paul fought very hard against imposing Jewish requirements on the Gentile Christians.

Again, why are your posts so obnoxious?

Questioning you is now classified as obnoxious?

The so called "lost ten tribes" still exist, and for the most part are the called Caucasian, or Saxon and are not gentiles, God never lost His people, so anything said to the people of Jacob is not out of context.

I understand that God requires obedience and always has, always will.

You seem to believe my questions are objectionable, and my insistence that what God says is what He means is odious.

Please have a good day Ickisrulz, I'll leave you with the last word, perhaps it will make you feel as though you have won something, I don't know.

I do know that the animosity shown in this post proves the original assumption, strict adherence to truth seems unwelcome. You're welcome to spin that off in any manner you choose, there will be no rejoinder because there is no point. The points are already made for those who wish to see.

Adieu

Boils down to "My way or the highway"!

Gee whiz, guys! Stating one's honest interpretation of the Bible is NOT "obnoxious." It's what is simply done in discussing theological matters. And what one believes is NOT incumbent upon others to accept. This is the root of all EFFECTIVE theological discussion, and I'd think we all know this. But we all come to the board here in different moods, and with different attitudes, often if not usually dependent on how our day has gone up to the time we log on here.

Self-discipline ain't easy, but it's always worth it! And if Christians can't or won't debate issues, then ... just what good is our faith, really? If we allow ourselves to become SO caught up in our own reactions and egos, that we can't allow a little room for the next person's convictions, how can or should we expect THEM to allow for OURS????

C'mon, guys! We can all do better than this. I wont' suggest you guys kiss and make up, but a simple handshake and a little respect for each other, despite your divergent understandings, would seem to be in order here. It's the Christian thing to do, is it not?

Romans 11:33-36 "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
'Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?'
'Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?'
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen."
I had a friend come to me who was thoroughly discouraged. He said, "I just saw convincing proof that the Bible was a product of men's work, not God's" He then said, "doesn't that bother you?" "Gary" I said, "I do not believe in God because of the Bible but I believe in the Bible because of God." That statement just popped into my head. Perhaps by the Spirit.

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Originally Posted by Blackwater

Gee whiz, guys! Stating one's honest interpretation of the Bible is NOT "obnoxious."

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No, Blackwater, stating one's opinion is not "obnoxious" nor is asking an honest question, asking for clarification or even asking if I'd considered another point. But I took some of the language in post #18 to be over the top and accusatory. Specifically this part:

"You keep using this "reason" you're so proud of, well "reason" this, God set the rules, not me, God says obey my commands, not me, God demands obedience, not me. If you can't grasp that, you are wasting your time as well as mine, and disregarding truth."

I'll discuss anything anyone wants to talk about and give my opinion. I'll go back and forth as many times as someone would like. If you notice, I try to be as respectful as I find possible. But what I don't like is when I am told I am not listening to God or I'm doing Satan's work when I don't agree with someone's off the wall interpretation or claim.