38 Spl “Super Police” 200 gr

I understand that both Elmer Keith and Chic Gaylord praised the 38 Spl 200 gr “Super Police” load for it effectiveness. I would think the load would be very effective in SD/HD situations where hard objects weren’t an issue, particularly, out of a snub nose. The argument that it penetrated poorly on hard objects (steel car doors, angled glass, etc) shouldn’t have applicability in a purely SD/HD situation. I understand that the load’s propensity to tumble in snub velocities is its primary attribute in SD/HD situations…this would also limit over penetration and the problems which that entails…another reason why even today it should be considered an effective SD/HD round.

We also know that the British found a 200 gr lead projectile in its original 38/200 MK I round, albeit a 38 S&W, to be very effective. Geneva Convention constraints eventually compelled the British to change bullets to a less effective 170 gr FMJ projectile.

I have duplicated the 38 Spl “Super Police” using Magnus 200 gr RNL bullets with Unique.

I like to hear other opinions about a 200 gr lead projectile in 38 Spl or even 38 S&W for SD/HD purposes where penetration through hard objects is not required.

The Fouling Shot No. 275 of Jan.-Feb. 2022, p.6-13.

iirc - the 200 gr. super police was loaded in the .38S&W + not the .38 special -

quote -
The .38 S&W (.38 Colt New Police)

By Chuck Hawks


Smith and Wesson devised this black powder cartridge in 1877. It was intended for the relatively weak top-break Smith revolvers of the period. Colt also chambered revolvers for the cartridge, which they called the .38 Colt New Police. As I understand it, the only difference was the flat-nose lead bullet loaded in the Colt version of the cartridge. (The S&W version used a 145 grain round-nose lead bullet.) Both claimed a muzzle velocity (MV) of 730 fps and a muzzle energy (ME) of 173 ft. lbs.

There was also a variation of the .38 S&W called the .38 Super Police or .38/200. These used a 200 grain LRN bullet at a MV of 620 fps with 176 ft. lbs. of energy.

Reloaders have found that .357" swaged lead wadcutter bullets (as sold by Speer and Hornady for .38 Special target loads) are a pretty good choice for .38 S&W reloads. These relatively soft bullets will usually expand enough to fit the grooves in .38 S&W barrels when fired. The Speer Reloading Manual No. 13 shows that their 148 grain bevel base wadcutter bullet can be driven to a MV of 701 fps by 2.5 grains of Bullseye powder, and 747 fps by 3.4 grains of Bullseye. These loads used Winchester cases and CCI 500 primers, and were tested in a 4" revolver barrel.

It was indeed loaded in 38 Special

Attachment 309330

[QUOTE=Outpost75;5518234]The Fouling Shot No. 275 of Jan.-Feb. 2022, p.6-13.[/QUOTE

Erased post, see below

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hi-Speed

Ed, I don’t have this edition…

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More info also in FS No. 277, May-June 2022 p. 9-11

CBA store has the back issues available on CD.

Hi-Speed,

Thanks for a thoughtful post. I own many .38/200 and .38 Special arms and cast boolits and reload for them all. I never bought into the theory the "anemic" .38/200 load was "just a effective" as the old .455 Webley 250 grain load." My first handgun in 1961 was a .45 Webley altered for the .45 ACP with half moon clips.

I love my 5-inch S&W .38/200 as well a my Enfields and Webleys in that caliber, but decline to believe; "Less is more." For my .38/200s, I cast 148, 150 and 168 grain cast boolits. That stubby .38/200 case is so short, putting a 200 grain boolit into it seems to me like "sending a boy to do a man's work!" That i why I prefer a .45. LOL.

Adam

[QUOTE=Outpost75;5518285]CBA store has the back issues available on CD.[/QUOTE

Ed, I checked the CBA store and cannot find either 275 or 277 in either hard copy or in CD form…no problem, thanks anyway.

found this
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...ce-load/387763

We used the 200 grn load in my wifes ruger for bowling pins. They did well carrying pins off the table. When testing thee loads a cardboard box would have round holes in the front side and oval holes in the back. They were accurate and effective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Helmer

Hi-Speed,

“That stubby .38/200 case is so short, putting a 200 grain boolit into it seems to me like "sending a boy to do a man's work!"

Adam

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The British were very satisfied with the 200 gr lead bullet in their Enfield revolvers based on their performance in actual combat…

I'd never trust bullet stopping performance based on it tumbling to work effectively.

I kind of been looking for a 200 gr mold for my .38/200 British S&W K frame revolvers.
But all I have seen are the .358 dia.molds.
If I find the right mold in .362
I can always size it down to .359 for my other .38s and .357s especially the two lever actions that we have.
My wife likes shooting heavier Boolits out of her Henry .357 lever action.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hi-Speed

It was indeed loaded in 38 Special

Attachment 309330

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Egad! Shot myself with that load once......

Richard Davis of Second Chance gave me numerous test patches of his kevlar material [what second Chance ballistic vests were made of] back in the late '70s. He suggested a bundle of magazines 8" thick taped together with test patch on that bundle. I was testing them with every type of weapon and ammunition I could get my hands on for the PD I was the firearms/Officer Safety instructor for. I was shooting the patches at 5'. When I shot one of those "man stoppers" out of a 2" Cheifs Special it bounced off and hit me in the belly. Good thing I had my own Second Chance vest on.....

Timely post! In cleaning up the garage I ran across some Lee 200gr (198gr as cast) RFN and NOE 198gr SWC boolits I'd begun load testing for .38 Special last year and decided to give it another go. I've also expanded my library of old reloading and CB manuals, and these have several 195/200 gr .38 Special loads. In addition to Unique, I'm going to try 2400 and IMR-4227.
Attachment 309363

In the same vein, the .44 Russian was a very slow, but heavy, man stopper. Wonder what a good comparison would look like?

For .38 spl low velocity loads that are not intended to penetrate, reversed hollow base wad cutters are another option. But they might not be accurate. They are very long with all of the weight in the rear. If they hit without tumbling I would expect rapid expansion. But they might also hit side ways and tumble. For close range home defense that should be a good load if penetration and long range is not needed. Care must be taken to account for the reduced case capacity relative to powder charge. But load to 800 fps or so and it should be a good load.

If the 38 revolver is modern I would opt out for some HP jacketed load that expands and of course there are a lot of such loads. Some as light 95 grains.
But the big problem now is even finding such ammo and also that does not cost an arm and leg to buy. If you have the 200 grain molds go for it and cast it as soft as possible.

Currently siting at the computer the load in my home-estate pistol is Federal law enforcement 9x19 +P+ 115 grain hollow at an advertised 1300 fps with a 16 shot magazine. I know from what a police supervisor told me is that it is an effective load for killing humans.

This where the VIRGEL app is very valuable to tell us about what is good for SD/HD.
Please download it and use it extensively.

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Originally Posted by LAGS

I kind of been looking for a 200 gr mold for my .38/200 British S&W K frame revolvers.
But all I have seen are the .358 dia.molds.
If I find the right mold in .362
I can always size it down to .359 for my other .38s and .357s especially the two lever actions that we have.
My wife likes shooting heavier Boolits out of her Henry .357 lever action.

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NOE 362-204RN with 2.5 grains of Bullseye in .38 S&W of 3.2 grains in .38 Special. These loads for solid frame, swing-out cylinder revolvers. Reduce 0.2 grain for British top breaks.

all I know is that a 200 gr bullet makes a satisfying CLANG when it hits a gong compared to the dink of a 105 grainer.
..

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I never bought into the theory (that) the "anemic" .38/200 load was "just as effective" as the old .455 Webley 250 grain load."

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Actually, it was a 265 gr. projectile, usually, in the .455. If memory serves, the .38/200 load derived part of its fight-stopping efficacy from the projectile, that was shaped to be "tail heavy", and prone to yaw/tumble on contact with the adversary. I'M not certain that I "buy into" THAT theory, but I do not find it implausible. At 620 f/s from the muzzle, the longish 200 gr. projectile is likely only semi-stable. The right geometry on it might very well make it happen.

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Originally Posted by Kosh75287

Actually, it was a 265 gr. projectile, usually. If memory serves, the .38/200 load derived part of its fight-stopping efficacy from the projectile, shaped to be "tail heavy", and prone to yaw/tumble on contact with the adversary. I'M not certain that I "buy into" THAT theory, but I do not find it implausible. At 620 f/s from the muzzle, the longish 200 gr. projectile is likely only semi-stable. The right geometry on it might very well make it happen.

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It would probably go “Thwack!” when it hits…

Yep. I still have some Lyman 358430 190 gr. loaded with a max. charge 2400 listed in the Lyman 45th edition. Stated velocity of about 875 fps out of a 6” revolver. The “clang” it makes on steel is well noted. Also my Marlin 1894 357 loves that load too! Very accurate and it’s a micro groove as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hi-Speed

The British were very satisfied with the 200 gr lead bullet in their Enfield revolvers based on their performance in actual combat…

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This malarkey keeps floating around, but it is not fact. In truth, it is more like the way the powers that be in the Armed forces of this country cling to the 5.56, despite numerous and repeated calls for a more powerful weapon/cartridge. The Field Marshals and Generals liked it because they could train men to use a lighter recoiling cartridge quicker and cheaper, but that certainly did not mean that it was better, or even adequate.

My ex-wife's uncle was a PIAT gunner in the Second World War in the Canadian Army. He had absolutely no use for a revolver after he shot a young German soldier in Holland and was handed the bullet by the medic who had plucked it from the wounded prisoners chest--WITH HIS FINGERS. The Late David Arnold recounted several instances of similar failures of the 38 revolver in South African police service. Dean Grennell published his experiences testing the ammunition of the day on a 70's era car. His verdict on the usefulness of the Super Police? "Halt or I'll scratch your paint." It was the repeated failure of round-nosed, lead bullets that lead to the demand for +p hollow point cartridges in the 60's and 70's. For defensive use, go there.

fact is they only had a very short life + were replaced by the much more capable +P and +P+ which are still available -

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Originally Posted by rintinglen

This malarkey keeps floating around, but it is not fact. In truth, it is more like the way the powers that be in the Armed forces of this country cling to the 5.56, despite numerous and repeated calls for a more powerful weapon/cartridge. The Field Marshals and Generals liked it because they could train men to use a lighter recoiling cartridge quicker and cheaper, but that certainly did not mean that it was better, or even adequate.

My ex-wife's uncle was a PIAT gunner in the Second World War in the Canadian Army. He had absolutely no use for a revolver after he shot a young German soldier in Holland and was handed the bullet by the medic who had plucked it from the wounded prisoners chest--WITH HIS FINGERS. The Late David Arnold recounted several instances of similar failures of the 38 revolver in South African police service. Dean Grennell published his experiences testing the ammunition of the day on a 70's era car. His verdict on the usefulness of the Super Police? "Halt or I'll scratch your paint." It was the repeated failure of round-nosed, lead bullets that lead to the demand for +p hollow point cartridges in the 60's and 70's. For defensive use, go there.

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The bullet that was plucked out of the german POW's chest, what did it hit before going into his body. Besides a thick uniform and coat, I would guess that something else was struck prior to hitting skin. The low velocity bullet for the 38/200 load was very limited on penetration, but was normally enough to reach vital organs.
Teddy Roosevelt was famous for having taken a .38 bullet, I think from either a short or long colt to the chest with his prepared speech slowing some of its penetration
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_1912.pdf.jpg

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The 50-page text of his campaign speech folded over twice in Roosevelt's breast pocket and a metal glasses case slowed the bullet, saving his life. Schrank was immediately disarmed, captured and might have been lynched had Roosevelt not shouted for Schrank to remain unharmed

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I have noticed for countries where winter clothing was prevalent often pistols of good penetration were sought out. The Bolsheviks early on loved the 30 mauser pistol cartridge and later on designed a pistol to use the very similar 7.62x25 tokarev in the T33 pistol. The Chinese were also quite fond of the 30 mauser pistol and in some places of china winter clothing was quite thick. But of course there were reasons due to sanctions as to why the mauser pistol was so popular in pre-communist china.
Choosing lighter recoiling rounds does have its positive points, especially for the 5.56 in fully automatic weapons. The russians choose the 5.45x39 for similar reasons.
The original luger was in a .30 caliber that gave good penetration that the Swiss liked. The 9x19 parabellum
has always well regarded for penetration also. The recoil of a browning hipower pistol in 9mm does not have severe recoil and is certainly more effective than was the 38/200 in all things except for having a more complicated manual of arms.

Several years ago a friend over in Nevada sent me a single cavity mould (358430) Lyman, 200 grain RN & I experimented with it. Wasn't looking to load something really hot or +p, just wanted to see what it'd do.

200g 38S Jug Busters _ Super Police Load of yesteryear

https://youtu.be/UK969_kkeIM

This is the old cast round that LE used to carry back in their '.38S. wheel gun' days. They referred to it as a "Pelvis Breaker" and for good reason, it is a slow moving Freight Train on impact.
It is cast with wheel weight lead and is 11BHN and it is Powder Coated.

I've had good luck with a NOE 360-200-RN (PB) in the 38/200. Plus it makes a cool looking load. Loading a batch of these was on the list of things to do, this thread kicked it up to the top just for the grins of it, this evening loading:

Attachment 309634

This is used in an WWII era break-top.

Don't know if that mold is still available but it works for me.