Exploading Rifle Question

I have a quick question and hope that I can explain it well enough. A close friend was out shooting in the rain when one of the rounds failed to exit the barrel. When he opened the bolt the pressure of the round forced the bolt from the rifle with enough force to puncture his abdomen. I have been told that it is possible for water to build up around the front of the bullet and not letting it release from the casing causing the pressure to build and blowing the bolt out. Does anyone know if this is possible and if so how that small amount of water could cause this?

I have seen something similar to this happen in a T/C Contender with a squib load. The boolit created a gas tight seal that in combination with the case expanding enough to seal the chamber end of the barrel. When the action was opened the case shot out of the chamber just missing my head. I don't think that water in and of itself could stop a boolit from exiting the barrel with properly loaded ammo. It does have the ability to create a restriction which could cause a bulged barrel or blown action. Check with your friend and ask him if the ammo he was shooting was factory or handloads.

I dont know about the water but that dont sound right to me.
I did once have a squib the failed the push the boolit out the barrel but both the boolit and the brass case sealed. The chamber was pressurised like an air compressor tank.
When the action was opened there was a bit of a surprise but not enough to cause any harm.
BIC/BS

DHORNE - You didn't mention rifle, caliber, or factory ammo or reloaded ammo. I would be more suspect of ammo before I would consider water in the bore. After all, in shooting in the rain, common sense would tell you not to hold the muzzle up, so how much water could one get in the barrel?? I mean, we have all hunted often in the rain. We keep the muzzle down out of habit. Look at the ammo/rifle/load first. enjoy Mike

Doesn't sound right to me either, I don't know if this was factory ammo for reloads. This was supposed to have something to do with the water that sealed around the boolit.

I agree, I have hunted in the reain numerous times without incident. I believe he said he was shooting a .308.

First off, I wonder how the bolt passed the locking lugs in the rear of the action? I don't buy the water in the barrel story as the problem. Something is fishy about the story. I can accept the squib part, but the bolt leaving the rifle doesn't work for me.

The more I thought about the more suspect it sounded so I called him to get more information. Hs was at a shooting competition, shooting a remington 700 .308 with factory match ammo. Said that he heard the primer ignite but nothing else, when he opened the bolt the pressure forced the bolt out. One of the range instructors gave the story about the water possibly being the culprit. I've never heard of this.

BS. No way the bolt got past the bolt release. A primer or partially burned powder building and holding pressure in the case, I can see. A violently ejected case I can see, the bolt flying out, no. But it could be he had the rifle at his hip or across his belly when he opened the bolt. Don't take offense at my response, I realize we're dealing with a second hand story here that is still sketchy at best. Water being somewhat noncompressible can increase pressures some, but they sure don't have cease fires on rainy days, and it isn't going to stop a bullet in the bore. My guess is he had a round with a primer only, or a very small charge of powder. I recall one day taking a walk with a Garand slung on my shoulder and getting caught in a very hard downpour. I sure had a bunch of water to dump out of that thing when I finished my walk and that made me think of the US GIs in Europe during WWII what with the weather being as nasty as it was.

I would think that if there was enough pressure to blow a bolt through the bolt stop and into a persons body, that there would be enough pressure to send the bullet out of the muzzle. Also with that much pressure still in the bore and chamber, it seems like the bolt would be awfully hard to open.

While water in the barrel will raise pressure, and a squib can happen; it still doesn't sound right.


Robert

More likely a hangfire.
There are images on the net of a hangfire involving a .303 rifle, the charge letting loose as the shooter opened the bolt.
It took a large part of his thumb with it.
If the charge fired after opening the bullet would likely not move very far.

PS
Water gathering around the case neck does increse pressures, sometimes drastically.
Water is incompressible, or very nearly so.

This story doesn't stand up to the laws of physics.

As he tells the story, the bolt came out as he opened it, I agree the hangfire is the more likely cause. Not sure exactly what the range officer told him, or where the RO may have gotten the possible cause.

Squib load? yes. I've seen it happen - once to me at home (Ruger M77 in .308, terribly short charge) and saw it at a "running deer" competition (Interarms mauser in .270 apparently primer only).

Water in barrel or chamber being the cause? sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me. Don't want that instructor on my range.

Bolt ejected? far stretch for me.

Bob

No Offense taken, was looking for opinions, I'm always sure to get one in this forum. Thats why I love this site.

Hatcher's Notebook has info on this, - - - but - - -

Don't be too quick to totally condemn the story, although the rain water has nothing to do with what happened; rain was very likely just an unrelated incident and not the cause.

In his definitive book, General Julian S. Hatcher wrote about a plugged barrel incident where a rifle, probably an 03A3 Springfield or an Enfield P17, had been fired but the bullet had not exited the bore. The bolt was jammed too tight to open manually, so an armorer carefully tapped the bolt handle with a mallet to get it open. When the locking lugs cleared, the bolt blew open and the cartridge was expelled by gas pressure that had been trapped in the barrel, making a noise similar to a cork blowing out of a champagne bottle. Hatcher surmised that the brass cartridge had effectively sealed the breech and the projectile had also formed a gas-tight seal in the barrel, and the space between the two acted as the pressure "tank" that had stored the pressurized gas for several hours.

Such incidents are exceedingly rare since very, very precise conditions have to be met in order for this kind of condition to exist. The most critical part of this is for BOTH the brass cartridge and bullet to make perfectly gas-tight seals that will hold gas under quite a bit of pressure WITHOUT SLOWLY LEAKING DOWN, but not enough pressure to expel the bullet.

If you consider that millions of cartridges get fired every month, and with all the wars that have been fought, billions of cartridges have been fired. If the odds of this happening are 100,000,000 to 1 (that's 100 million to one), then in reality it is possible for this to happen once in awhile. I seem to recall that the incident Hatcher wrote about was when a soldier got a cotton cleaning wad stuck in his rifle barrel and decided to shoot it out by pulling the bullet and dumping most of the powder out of a cartridge before firing the small charge. It obviously didn't work. At least he was smart enough not to use an as-issued full-powered cartridge! Hatcher wrote that a soldier firing a full power cartridge to "shoot out" a stuck cleaning jag or wad in the .30-06 service rifle also happened once-in-awhile, too, and doing that always resulted in the barrel getting blown apart where the plug was.


rl717

Something else to consider is you all assume the Rem 700 bolt release was functioning correctly. Just last weekend, I was showing a friend a new Rem 700, and I pulled the bolt open to show him it was clear, and the bolt pulled clean out of the action and hit the floor. Luckily it missed dinging the stock, and it was a carpeted floor, so no harm. The bolt release was stuck in the up position. The rifle had been handled numerous times just before this, but the bolt had apparently not been retracted all the way to the stop, so the stuck release wasn't noticed.

I thought that it was common knowledge that if there is a FTF in a rifle that you do not immediately open the bolt. Instead just hold the rifle on target for 10 seconds. If nothing happens, then nothing is going to happen.
Sounds like a genuine hangfire case to me. We have heard of those but, the real thing is so rare , it would be hard to find a first hand account.

With that much pressure on the bolt, I do not think he could turn it. But I dont know...Buck

The most you could attribute to the rain is that it may have added to the squib but not likely on that count either.

But squibs sure happen!

The idea of a near perfect seal is news and should reinforce the notion that you wait before opening the action ... it's been a common safety related recommendation since the advent of breach loading firearms and it should be heeded.

I would not trust a bolt stop to hold the stored pressure ....... it's simply not designed for that. I can readily see a bolt flying out in this fortunately rare occurance.

One more for the "books"!

And I think this incident speaks to having a copy of Hatcher's to curl up on long cold winter nights to bone up. If you want to learn something new .... it is said to look BACK and someone has already lived it!

Three 44s

Some benchrest shooters and other competitors remove the bolt release to make it more convenient to remove the bolt from the action.

i had a shot gun shell blow past my face from a hang fire.

pulled the trigger, pop, wait........, break the breach, BANG!!

shell goes whizzing bast my face.

wad and shot exited the muzzle into the dirt 1' from my foot.