Lgs has a Savage 99 in .303. Gun is circa 1910, barrel is in good shape, receiver & barrel has maybe 10% blue, stock is missing buttplate. Action seems tight & free. Price is $350. What Are some of your opinions? Thnx
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Lgs has a Savage 99 in .303. Gun is circa 1910, barrel is in good shape, receiver & barrel has maybe 10% blue, stock is missing buttplate. Action seems tight & free. Price is $350. What Are some of your opinions? Thnx
JMHO....10% blue sounds like it was really used hard...I'd check that bore real good with a light. Make sure it doesn't have any pits/grey/dark spots in it. Its likely a 99A so parts won't be toooooo hard to find. An original buttplate could run you $20-25 once you find one. Personally, if the bore is good as you say...and the rest of the description fits...then $350 sounds a little high to me...$300 would be better.
Again...JMHO.
redhawk
If that gun was here in Ohio I would be looking at it hard. It's always good to knock the price down
but at $350 I would be more concerned with function and bore. I don't know customs in Ca, will
LGS let you shot it? The 303Sav is basically a 30/30, not a barrel burner, not a BP cartridge but was
corrosive primed. I would be checking stock for cracks around action and if stock has been cut for
recoil pad ( hence missing butt plate). The blueing wear would be my least concern. If rifle is marked
as 99 it was made 1920 on, if marked 1899 it is not an A model.
Reloading not a problem with Prvi brass available at Graf's, Powder Valley. One of the best Cast bullet calibers, It and the 32 Special might be better for cast than the 30-30. Lots of silver 99's, carried every day in trucks and saddle scabbards, as long as the bore is decent and the wood is sound, not much else to be concerned about. There are 1899's with a square bolt locking area with a square cocking indicator in the bolt, rather than the curved locking area with a round pin cocking indicator on top of the receiver, round is good, square needs close inspection. In Wyoming it would be a bargain.
99s are net guns. You may have problems finding ammo. 303 Savage will fire in a 303 British SMLE so you could probably resize and trim brass to work in the Savage. If I were buying it I would want the LGS to sell me at least 3 boxes for no more than $20.00 per box. You know you won't be able to hunt with this gun next year. You will probably never be able to buy non-toxic factory ammo for this gun. If you can find brass you can reload non-toxic for it.
If I did not have two, I would buy it, maybe get price down if possible. Brass is about $1 a pop. It can be made from 30-30 easily. Has the butt been modified? for recoil/rubber pd or will factory issue still fit? Your LGS won't sell you ammo for $20 a box as it runs about $60 when you find it. Reloading is as easy as 30-30 or two dozen others.
You did not mention sights. Good tangs sights can be found and added, around another $100.
Around here in Texas, just about any Savage 99, even just for parts, is worth $300.
As a reloader, making some .303 Savage brass should just be a labor of love & another fun part of the hobby! :-)
Graf and Sons has 303 Savage ammo in stock for $30 a box - Your choice, Either Hornady or Precision Cartridge
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FYI, the .303 Savage is actually a .30 caliber (.308") - Savage's answer to the .30-30 Winchester.
FWIW, I paid a little less then $350 OTD for this ca.1914 .303 Model 1899-H (lightweight carbine) 30 months ago @ a local Cabela's.
It's dead-nutz accurate with new Hornady ammo.
https://i.imgur.com/B5v1LLLl.jpg
It looked horrible when I bought it, covered with small white paint dots (like someone painted a ceiling w/o covering the Savage), decals, decal adhesive remnants, and orange grunge (dirt, not rust) covering the bolt.
It cleaned up pretty good within an hour of my getting it home.
If the bore on the .303 you're considering is good, you're GTG.
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303 Savage does fire in a 303 British, undersize case, undersize bullet. Goes bang, not advised, case may/may not split. 303 Savage has Standard 30 cal 308 bore, 308 jacketed, 309, 310, 311 cast depending on best accuracy. I start with 310. Again, proper 303 Savage brass available, Lee makes 303 Savage dies, NOE 311-195 RCBS clone works very well, 30-30 load data works well, as do 30-30 bullet styles. No worries about 'pointy' or streamlined bullets due to rotary magazines. Head/base diameter - 303 Savage-.442, 303 British-.460, 30-30-.422 enough difference that 303 Savage brass should be used as it is available. In Great Britain it was called the 301 Savage to avoid confusion with the 303 British.
I never herd such a stupid rant, against the 303 Savage. Although ammo is now available it is also
easy to form & load. Having spool magazine the choice of 30cal bullets is extensive. Exterior wear
has no effect on the rifle. I have bought many 100 yr old guns with no blue. They weren't abused
they were carried daily. As with most guns they were carried more than shot.
The .303 was throated for heavier bullet than the .30-30, otherwise it's the ballistically same. Savage even sold ammo with a paper-patched cast bullet which weighed around 200 grains. DO slug the bore. Some ran pretty large. My .303 is .3095. I'd also say that even a parts gun would run over $300 in my area, unless it had been buried and dug up 50 years later.
Edit: My .303 is an 1899, letters to 1900. Also have an 1899 in .30-30. I prefer the .303, but then I'm a little strange that way.
Thnx for the info guys, I’m gonna go look at it again tomorrow. It comes with a set of RCBS dies and has a tang sight on it. The stock had been modified for a recoil pad which is now gone with a hand hammered thin copper butt pad (or actually more like a butt cap!)
The tang sight alone is worth at least $100.
FYI
As stated above:
While 30-30 brass will fit and form through a 303 die, the base diameters are different. 30-30 brass will deform when shot and bulge just past the web of the case. Most likely won't be able to reuse them. I believe that accuracy will also suffer. Just use the correct brass. Local reloader here was selling 303 loaded ammo made using 30-30 brass. Neighbor had a few boxes with one partially full but the empty cases looked really bad. Got him some correct brass from Midway, reloaded with RN 180 grain Speer bullets and all was good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckiller
As noted above, anyone who touches off a .303 Savage cartridge in a .303 British chamber should have their head examined. (IMO, it sounds like a typical internet myth).
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The only case cartridge that is close to the 303 Sav is the 220 Swift...however, the rebated rim causes problems with reliable extraction. I've shot 30-30Win in the 303 Sav. and as stated above the case bulge is pretty severe just ahead of the 30-30 web. There are several makers of 303 Sav brass....its worth the few dollars more to get the repos....Jamison and Prvi come to mind. Both reload just fine. I've stockpiled once fired Winchester brass from gunbroker as well.
Its out there...its not worth converting other cartridges as long as you can get the repos. And yes...check your bore...it can be anywhere from .308" up to .310". Get the appropriate sizer button for your dies.
redhawk
The 303 Savage has very similar ballistics to the 30 30. If the bore is good, that is a great price. I have a 1913 303 I paid $400 for and thought I stole it. Finally, the 303 Savage and the 303 British are two totally different and not interchangeable cartridges. Ammo and brass are easily obtainable.
Aside from the bore condition, check its headspace too. .30-30 headspace gauges will work.
Also, "circa 1910" isn't good enough for another reason too. In 1909 they went from a square lockup (back end of bolt where it butts into the receiver) to a radiused one. Reason- the square bolt mortises were/are prone to cracks. Look closely at the sharp corners for them. The radiused bolts are immune to that problem but those early rifles were made with a different, simpler, softer alloy than those built just a few years later and can have experienced a bit of setback which means headspace becomes an issue.
Brass? Like what's been said before, don't mess around with making brass out of other stuff. Yes, some will "work" but in reality there's nothing else out there that matches .303 Savage dimensions in such a way as to make jerry-rigging a viable long term solution. New brass is available- stock up if you're worried about the future, it's not expensive.
Just use .30-30 load data. Case capacities are identical.
Slug the bore if you want, but rest assured it's nominally .308. You're far better off measuring the throat diameter and sizing accordingly. .303 Savages I've owned had throats that varied from .309 to .3105. All shot cast bullets well, just as you would expect from any old .30-30.
Butt plate missing? If its to be a shooter you probably will want to just re-install another recoil pad. Original Savage crescent butt plates ain't cheap anymore. Expect to pay $50-100 for one, and then there's the royal PIA of fitting it. It could've had a hard rubber black plastic butt plate, if it's a carbine, and there are plastic repros on ebay all the time for $20+, but require fitting also- they had a slight curve to them and are almost as bad in that regard as fitting a crescent butt plate. Some few saddle ring carbines were made with steel butt plates that remind me of the ones on trapdoor Springfields. They aren't cheap either, and rare as all get out.
Check closely for tang cracks in the wood. Dollar to a donut hole, one that's been rode that hard to be in the condition described will have a tang crack in the wrist too.
$300? Yeah, I would snag it if the bore's nice and headspace is tolerable. Otherwise it's a parts gun.
Is it true that .303 Savage factory ammo was loaded with .312" bullets for more velocity from the .308" barrel?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas by God
Early .303 Savage cartridges, loaded by Remington for Savage, were loaded with .311" boolitts in the .308" bore.
The 1904 Savage catalog stated: "the tight fit of the metal-cased bullets gives increased velocity and accuracy."
Other US ammunition companies listed loads were:
* Peters (prior to the Inner-Belted): .3084"
* United States Cartridge: .3085"
* Western Cartridge: .3088"
* Winchester: .3085"
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No i have 6 boxes of Dominion ammo from the 50's and its .308 with 190 grain bulletQuote:
Originally Posted by Texas by God
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AKA, "the horse's mouth": The 1904 Savage catalog stated: "the tight fit of the metal-cased bullets gives increased velocity and accuracy."
Being a Canadian company, Dominion isn't listed in my sources, but I wouldn't doubt that they loaded their cartridges with whatever they wanted, for instance .308" diameter 190gr boolits - as exemplified by your sample..
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I had a Savage 1899 once, an early gun, around 1901, liked the gun a lot, and I didn't handload then so I cut it loose. There are several 1899's here between a couple different shops, all .303 Savage and none of them seem to gather interest because of the caliber. If I had the money I would snag an A carbine that one shop has for $425. The finish is worn but it's all there, no extra holes, the stock had some homemade checkering but the bore is exceptional and it's an early gun, the early loaded chamber indicator.
I can tell you that the caliber is basically .30-30 in ballistics but you can get brass and the same bullets will work for it although if I recall the old Winchester rounds had a 180 or 190 grain round. Myself, I like the caliber, it's great for killing whitetail.
Thanks, Pietro. I think The offset dimensions were Charles Newtons idea and used in the .22 HP also. Read that somewhere it seems.
On the plus side, ammo is being made again. I wish it were something heavier than 150 grain, but Hornady has been contracted with Graf & Sons and have started making ammo for the .303 Savage again, on ammoseek one box was running about $28.00.
http://www.selwayarmory.com/graf-son...box-of-20.html
In my Lever Action Rifles magazine the oversized bullets were mentioned for the 303 Savage and the 22High Power or IMP. Claim was made that some ammo companies loaded it with 308 bullets and some with 311. The 303 Savage in its day had quite a reputation and several loads. Some claimed the 190 grain would shoot through a moose stem to stern. Times have changed a bit. I have an old Lyman manual that lists the use of 190 grain bullets in the 30-30 that were intended for the 303. Heavy cast bullets worked very well in a 30-30 I had and should shine in the Savage as well.
DEP
In the early 70's, my dad borrowed a rifle from a family friend so he could get back into hunting again. (He was unable to hunt while he was in college.) That rifle was a Sav 99A in 303 Sav. I would go to the range with him and the 303 Sav was the very first rifle I ever fired...about age 11 or 12....at age 16 I purchased my first rifle...a 99C in 308 Win.....jump 30+ years.....
A lady in our local church who's husband died asked me one day to come over to the house and see if I would be interested in Charlie's old hunting rifle. Obviously, I obliged. I was expecting an old Win 94, or maybe a Marlin...I was so pleasantly surprised when she pulled out a Savage 1899 in 303 Sav. (sn dates it to 1912).
I've collected some loaded ammo (mostly Winchester loaded with 190gr Winchester Silver Tip bullets) and a lot of empty brass. I handload it with 170gr 30-30 bullets since they are designed for expansion at the lower velocities (1700-2100fps range). However, I don't hunt with the gun. I'm a lefty and the safety slide locks on the lever on the right side so its very awkward to release quickly if I should jump a deer. However, this doesn't detract me from taking it to the range once in awhile.
My RCBS dies for the 303 Sav came with a 0.310" expander button. I had to swap it out with a 0.308" since my bore is 0.308". But other than that...its a very simple cartridge to reload for...and recoil is light like a 30-30.
If you do purchase this firearm...Use it...have fun with it...and above all...study its history.
redhawk
I have a old 99 H carbine in 303 Savage. Mine has the smooth side panels and the stocks are fruitwood. The gun has a lot of finish wear but just looks great to me with original steel carbine buttplate. Mine is a great shooter with cast or jacketed and is smooth as glass.
The 303 cartridge makes it a bit cooler than a 30-30 and I handload all y ammo anyway and it's not a problem.
I just wish that someday I can take a deer or other game with it as it is not a legal deer caliber here in OH and it has a reciever sight and is not good for the long shots at antelope when I make it out west hunting.
I say if it looks good to you, don't let the 303 caliber stop you from buying it !
Jedman
PPU brass is available and reasonable. Get a set of dies and it reloads just like any thing else. It's better than the .30-30 in that it can use spritzer type bullets if you like. Don't let the nay sayers tell you wrong, it's as easy to have ammo as anything else you already reload for, no need to make brass. Plenty of load data available, and it has a .308 bore.
My 99H in .303 Savage is a good shooter with cast. If that one if in good functioning shape and has a good bore, I'd buy it for $350, no doubt.
I squirreled away, some time back, some Winchester 190 Silver Tips (intended for the 303 Savage). They are .308 diameter. I plan on using them in my 24" M94 30-30 over LeveRevolution powder.....just haven't got around to developing the load yet.........
Attachment 228813
The 303 Savage M1999 with it's 12" twist should excel with the 311041 or equivalent bullet over LeveRevolution.
I have never put a jacketed bullet down the bore of any .303 Savage I own. My go-to hunting load is a 190 grain flat nose cast soft-ish (bhn 11-13) and 28 grains 3031. Size your throats, internal barrel dimensions varied a bit in the early guns. Mine run in the neighborhood of .310" so I just size my bullets to .310 and all is right with the world. (Luckily they pop out of the mold at .310 with my hunting alloy so it's more of a matter of lubing and gas check seating when pushing them through the lubrisizer.)
I turned down a 99 303 Savage for $350 in 1997. I thought it was a bit high then, i wouldn't now.