I suppose I am the odd guy out, I don't mind the beeswax.
I do understand the value of being able to heat it all together. I just don't know if that's a big deal to me?
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I suppose I am the odd guy out, I don't mind the beeswax.
I do understand the value of being able to heat it all together. I just don't know if that's a big deal to me?
Okay, I need some help now for this next summary:
Why they don't, or don't quite, make the cut for "Extreme" Lube:
1. MML #1 (my designation), I think that was Mike's Mystery Lube, not to be confused with:
2. MML #2 (Mike's Micro-Lithi???), see here at post # 60. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-recipes/page3
3. Stuff with Ester Oils?
4. Felix Lube (big batch recipe here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-recipes/page6.
5. Stuff with PAG Oils?
6. WHAT was the latest and most successful attempt with lithium grease & why was it apparently dropped?
7. Finally, I sense some resistance to carnauba was as a hardener. Cold-start flyers, right?
See, when I came back after six or eight weeks of being otherwise occupied, this tranny Assembly Goo stuff seems to have eclipsed everything and I missed how that developed and going back pages and pages ran out of time...
The tranny goo was something Gear "discovered" at work when he noticed it looked a bit like a mid range viscosity modifier, something much better than today's Vaseline. He tried it, it worked. That simple.
The tranny goo made a soap based lube a viable option. It was the missing link so to speak.
Carnuba, can't say. I don't think it is needed but that is never really known for certain.
Lithium grease tends to get too soft in heat. Temps over 90 tend to get squire.y and it gives purge flyers at those temps. It does great at low temps, just doesn't like the heat.
I am using an ester based 2 stroke in my current iteration of SL61. I am happy with its ability to help moderate the cold barrel flyers given by castor oil. Ester based is good in cold, not so great in heat. Castor is the opposite. I use both to balance the negatives of each. I just keep them in small amounts.
Felix lube is awesome. It is sort of the "gold standard" of lubes.
This is just my take on things. Gear and Run have done much, much more work than I have in trying things. The SL61 based lubes have much promise. It isjust a case of making small tweaks to the oils for now to see what seems to work "best". In the end we may all use a slightly different version of the basic mix.
you have to remember not everything is posted in the thread.
1-6 are all temperature related.
except the ester oils, we are still working with those.
they found favor over the pag's because of their friction property's and temperature swing capability's, they also seem to have fewer compatability issues.
marlin junky is still doing work with the lithium based greases [nothing wrong with them until you see temps over 95 or so]
I am still shooting the E-purple lube in my leverguns and will be for a long,long time.
I spent the time and effort to twist that lube around to work in that environment and velocity window.
and modified all my loads to work the way I needed them to with the lube.
eutectic is doing c.o.r.e work with the carnuba and rough barrels.
he is modifying the carnuba with ester oils also.
the assemblee goo come about in the search for a middle modifier to take the place of Vaseline, and as a long chain paraffin that takes the soap very well.
it basically holds everything together.
we were looking at another avenue of waxes and base oils when this one popped up on the radar.
this new lube is a mix of carriers that are lubes, and modifiers, and binders at the same time.
everything is doing double duty..
we are in the testing phase right now.
Brad and Lamar pretty much covered it. Temperature is the big hickie, but we've learned some things that we didn't know until just recently about how lube really needs to work.
1. pH un-balanced.
2. Falls apart in the heat, not a good mix of waxes and not enough stearate/too much oil to handle it.
3. Ester oils are very slippery, but have a high viscosity index (act the same at both temperature extremes) and will probably be a vital part of the viscosity modification package of an all-temperature lube.
4. The "big batch" is virtually impossible to duplicate for a number of reasons, so is essentially "unobtainium". Regular Felix lube IS a gold standard to me, the lube that has consistently given me the best accuracy in my rifles, especially at high temperature and velocity. With slight modification it can, like several excellent lube formulas, cover all the temperature ranges and works in pistols very well too. The drawback is that for best all-around performance, one version won't do it all.
5. PAG oils don't play well with waxes or other oils, they separate from the mix or bleed out when the waxes cool and harden.
6. Lamar has made a variety of very successful lithium grease based lubes, as have I and others. The problem with all of them is they don't quite cover all the bases either. I'm starting to think it has more to do with the napthenic bases than it does the lithium soap thickener.
7. Carnauba is a band-aid to fix low melt-point, inconsistent barrel coating issues, or excessively tacky lubes, and I don't feel that it's a necessary ingredient if none of the other components really need "fixing". We're trying to select components that are good as they are and work together and balance each other, and carnauba doesn't really bring a lot to the party by itself.
Personally, I went off on the soap lube tangent because I have been playing with several formulas made with sodium stearate and vaseline for a while and haven't found the equal in a soft lube that works in all guns regardless of barrel finish, length, pressure, or velocity. The problem is coming up with something to soften a soap/wax lube that doesn't make it too slippery. The issue with MMl and some others using oils to soften them is that they become too slippery by the time the bases are soft enough to use.
What I'm learning now is that the paraffins (from thin oil to thick paste) do the softening we need without adding excessive oiliness or slickness to the lube; too slick equals poor hot weather performance, cyclic purge flyers, and unpredictable bore conditions for that first shot in the cold. They also may require the bore be fouled for the best results in hot weather because they leave too much behind each shot, and what's left changes in consistency and friction as the barrel cools.
With Eutectic's "CORE" principle in mind, I started looking for a "middle modifier" that would do what the old, heavy, yellow Vaseline used to do for lubes (plasticize wax, add film strength, flex, and glide), but the new stuff doesn't. A soup of multiple, long-chain paraffinic hydrocarbons is what we need for this, something that has a broad temperature performance range, melts slowly, is basically inert, doesn't burn, and doesn't leave a film in the bore. This paraffinic transmission assembly lube is a good start, although I think it needs a touch of modern white Vaseline to give it a touch more glide without making the lube too slippery.
The soap, in very high concentration (1/3 by weight) holds everything together in the heat and being a solid lubricant, adds an all-temperature friction characteristic to the lube.
In order to work, some of us have discovered that the most of the lube needs to go liquid under pressure, and function as a lube while liquid rather than as a solid. This enables it to work in a variety of guns from snubby revolver to the longest rifle barrel, and enables it to be used in tight setups with virtually no blowby before engraving, or in situations where much of the lube is blown out of the grooves and up the bore before the boolit gets engraved and sealed in the bore. "Running over" blown out lube is a big problem if the blown out lube is still in solid chunks in the bore because it's difficult to make it do it the same way every time. If the lube liquifies very quickly after pressure hits it, then it can work in a variety of guns without too much concern about how many grooves are lubed, how much (or little) gets blown out, and how much is left after each shot.
The trick here is to make the soap lube act the same and leave the same residue regardless of temperature, which is what we're fine-tuning right now.
My hope is that this basic Ivory soap/Vaseline/wax mix can be worked out for all temperatures, because as a basic formula the trio satisfies all of the other major requirements we have for a lube, much better than anything else out there right now (particularly extremely hot storage and handling conditions).
Gear
Thank you all, very much!
I hadn't caught that the Liti-variants were too much like goose poop in the heat. My Dad's experiment in the early/mid 1980s with Do-All (sp???) band saw lube and one of the Moly synthetic (at least I think they were all synthetic in the garage by then) wheel bearing greases was successful up to 1900 fps with a gas-checked .30 Carbine load and BHN 13-ish bullets. It barely started to slip but was getting pretty soft at maybe 120°F on a black motorcycle fender in the sun... Don't think it had a speck of beeswax but it's also near-impossible to try to duplicate. Probably have maybe 150 rounds of that stuff still loaded.
Yeah, heat performance is pretty important to me.
So the current, not big-batch Felix works WITH seasonal mix adjustments. I might have to dig around and study that.
RandyRat's green stuff that smells like honey...TAC #1! Where does THAT fit? I'm about to accuracy test it in .45 ACP and maybe in a few months in the .30 Carbine... It seems slightly better in heat than the old 50/50 BW/Alox stuff my Dad used to use all the time.
Gotta look up the Starmetal stuff too. And that purple stuff.
Seems like the cold-start flyers are where many earlier mixes either flopped or were not reliably in the group every time.
muttermutter...so much to learn...
the flyers are generally the core problems.
one of the big things we are/and need to test is dry vs "wet" consistent bore condition.
the atf addition will answer that question right off.
gear.
I think the replacement of the min oil with Vaseline is a very good step also.
Yes, substituting probably 1/3 Vaseline to 2/3 assembly lube ought to give it a better "finish". The paraffin/Ivory/AG (SL-62) is almost perfect, but needs something to add to the "smearability" without softening it too much. The AG isn't quite slick or stringy enough, it needs a lower melt point additive to smooth it out.
I always liked your idea of blending bases, blending middle modifiers, and blending additives/friction modifiers into a three-part mix with a broad spectrum of sub-ingredients. There weren't any gaps in the temperature/pressure/viscosity/lubricity spectrum. I'm thinking this soap lube will end up being similar with high/low melt point waxes, thick/thin paraffin oils, and maybe a drop or two of something to ease cold-starts or give a long-term bore film.
Gear
Thanks to Grump for putting the right words in the question and thanks for all of the current replies. I was beginning to think this was going to end up as the charlatans selling their snake oils. I am beginning to get a better picture, just wish that I had some input but for the most part I've just been depending on the professional lube makers. I keep on making book marks of these posts and will continue studying from behind my ignorance.
EW
We have a pretty good idea now of at least three different approaches to making a lube and each works differently, same as there are incandescent, flourescent, and LED light bulbs that all will light a room just fine. There is probably more than one "best" way to do it. We also have learned a lot about what ingredients do what and how to create a formula that does what we want it to once we know what it IS that we want it to do, which has been the biggest hurdle for me. Once you get the idea that you can light a room by making something emit light with electricity, it's just a matter of figuring out how. What I thought about boolit lube and how it works in the beginning is quite a bit different from what I know now, and I'm still learning.
But there's not any snake oil sales going on here. Something everyone should keep in mind is some of us in the R&D department are shooting at velocities that many cast shooters wouldn't believe, so our demands on lube may be a bit different. But per the requirements outlined for "Extreme Lube" the final formula should work for everybody. I'd surmise that Lamar and I have at least half a dozen formulas that would meet the needs of 95% of the shooters, as well as our own needs 95% of the time, but the quest for that other 5% is what keeps us tuning and trying new things as we learn more.
Gear
Went out today and shot some with the B version. First shot appeared to be out, barrel hasn't been cleaned in 65 rounds over 10 days. Not sure what that really means.
Groups were bad all around. I have decided that I don't like the 100 yard range at the club for group shooting. Targets end up being a bit higher than rest and it makes for an awkward shooting position. The 300 yard range has targets lower than benches, by a few feet, and it makes for a more consistant position at the bench.
Between glasses and a poor position I am getting a bit of parallax. My glasses aren't great for bench shooting as the lenses are small and I end up looking thru a corner of the lens, not the center.
I also forget to readjust my seater and it didn't remove the flair from the M die and the cases were tough to chamber.
All around, I learned lots, just not about lubes.
I did fire 20 pretty quick. Barrel got warm enough to get some really good mirage in 30 degree weather. Talk about a dancing target! Even with a barrel warm enough that I didn't want to hold onto it there was no lube star. The end of the barrel after 100 rounds with various iterations of SL61 the muzzle shows barely any lube. Talk about shooting dry!
As per another thread, you can't hit what you can't see! If you can, your intuition via many years experience with the gun is showing up. However, the score should not count unless you are positively and dead sure the "group" can be reproduced in the same conditions. ... felix
Back in high school the senior class took a speed reading course as a required course from an external professional who was contracted by the school. Her technique was a number of flashing cards up onto a screen with a variable sequence of letters and numbers of various sizes and shapes per each card. Each person had to repeat a half second or so showing of each card. My 100 percent score was with only three (3) letters/numbers, and that was exactly average for the entire class. Only one person got all letters and numbers 90 percent of the time, something like for a cards having 8 through 15 objects. She explained some folks are born with this ability because it was second nature for that personality type. The class called that a photographic memory and she agreed that would be the case.
Why mention this? Because that score number would be the number of shots per group a person should be able to handle without undue emotional/intellectual strain, which, if continued by the average guy, would very likely mess up a 5 shot group.
... felix
Oh, I can reproduce that scattering, I am sure of that!
I don't shoot much from a bench these days and this was a lesson that needed to be learned.
I have another rifle I need to get sighted in. Having a second gun ready for use will make it easier to see differing resuls.
This sure is cutting into my plinking time
I think the key is the wax base. There are paraffins with 150F-165F* melt points. I also want to thicken the common lithium greases (350F drop point) with lithium stearate and make my own lithium grease using Stihl Bar and Chain oil. I also need to purchase a block of BW-429 and BW-408... gonna be an interesting summer.
MJ
P.S. Actually, I want to see if I can get samples of BW-429 and BW-431 before placing my order. They both have higher melt temps than BW-430 albeit narrower melt ranges. The latter attribute is hopefully modifiable by incorporating BW-408 which has a 10F melt range and is softer than both 429 and 431.
if someone takes MY piece of folded carpet off MY shooting benches seat at the range I have to just go home and get my other piece or wait for it.
that little extra inch of height makes all the difference between snuggling in and feeling like I am a foot shorter.
my elbows are all askew, I can't get my feet right, and i'm twisted to the side.
you might as well add 2"s to the lop of my rifles and shave the comb off.
It sure felt that way Run. Shot at the 100 yard range 10 days ago. Wasn't happy who the results. Used the 300 last weekend, good groups. Used the 100 today because it is better protected from the wind. Bad choice. At least now I know.
MJ, I am not so sure the wax is the key. Seeing what SL61 can do using beeswax is impressive. I don't know if I will move to microwax even if Run and Gear do. I will try it bu beeswax is working so well. I am also amazed at what a very small change in oils can do to the nature of the lube. Changes of just 1 percent make a difference. I mean adding 1/4 tea of 2 stroke to 3 ounces of base made a significant difference in how it shot. Doesn't seem like it should but I does.
Gear.
i'm positive that the moly complex's secret is the blended yin/yang thing.
there are a lot of layers there to compensate for different conditions.
making it is like making cookies, you have to blend all the wet and the dry then mix them together and add the vanilla.
the proportions are always the same, the mixing is always the same.
it's just getting that tibetian monk made poly glycol moly "vanilla" stick that stops the process from becoming mainstream.
that and the feedstock isn't always consistent.
so I have to look at and reject more of it than I buy.
I could probably find a way around it, but I have enough stuff on hand to make 12-15 pounds of it.
that doesn't mean the process can't be applied elsewhere to bolster another lube to go through the same progressions.
I think as long as we work from the outside of the beta [dry] version towards the middle modifier the [SL-] lube can be enhanced towards the outer edges of temperature excursions.
The final lube should act just like a small change in the the final powder for a load would: statistically no difference in the group size. If so, change lube formula like you would for a powder. In other words, use a different something in the lube. ... felix
btroj,
Never said I wasn't going to use beeswax; in fact beeswax will remain, a major ingredient.
MJ
P.S. BTW...
From a design standpoint, that's not desirable... IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by btroj
I have made the complex with a different version of moly stick and it does work very well.
there has to be several way's to get there depending on what you can get for feed stock.
poly glycol as a boolit lube in general works very well.
it is just hard to deal with at home.
you have to build and order it to be made to specifications right off the bat. pretty much like SL lube it comes out how you build it, there isn't a lot of room to go back and fix things after the fact.
so any changes have to be made before you start.