I tell you what I would do.Here of late I have fould eastern cedar as fast
as any.Gone to the lawn & garden dept & look for cedar mulch.
Fly:coffeecom
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Isn't that cedar mulch mostly bark? Buy a 6" cedar fence picket and chop it up. (that's what I did to make my charcoal 2 years ago) Unless you can get some nice scraps for free
It has to do with the fact that it can be used to produce a gunpowder alternative type propellent that the army trains to reload ammo in a pinch. If you cannot get to a place to buy or harvest Potassium Nitrate, it might be an alternative method of making ammo go boom. ;) I know I always urinate, but I apollogize for being off topic.
I'm kind of excited to try the black powder also. ;)
Thanks
Cottonwood I can get.
I have a fig tree that needs pruning. I wonder how well that would work.
BTW, I made some black powder back in 56 when I was about 14. I am looking forward to doing it again.
Yeah, I have some stories, not sure why, still have all of my fingers and thumbs, eyes and ears.
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much room.
My first charcoal after grinding. You definitely can't put too much in the grinder at one time, it is much harder to grind than I would have thought.
There are some bigger pieces in there but that should be taken care of when I ball mill it. The meat grinder got it pretty fine though.
That was a one gallon paint can stuffed full of willow, yielded more than I thought it would when I first looked in the can.
Bob
Now your cooking my friend.I can't wait till you mill it & screen or are you going to corn it?
Fly
I've read so much on this stuff in the last couple days my head is about to explode. I really want to try this in a cartridge gun and the precipitate method might not have the density I need but thought I would go that route just to get something done. Need to make up a way to press the powder before going for more weight per volume. I have some screens on the way from McMaster-Carr for grading and/or screening.
Here is a place to get Willow charcoal if you don't want to fool with making your own. They also have Alder.
http://www.customcharcoal.com/willow-lump-charcoal.html
Bob
Everything is in the mill going round and round.
Bob
What binder are you going to use.?
Boz I just use a kitchen strainer like the one atom
use's in that early picture in this thread.It works
great.
Fly
And to think that a couple months ago, most were saying, Don't, Can't, Won't. Now it's the next thing to do.
Glad to see the positive discussion, and common sense prevailing.
I don't have anything for this batch just wanted to get my feet wet. I'll try it on the next batch. I'd like to try the compressed pucks as well since I'm going to try this in a cartridge gun and will eventually need the denser powder. I do have MLs as well though. My screens ought to be here tomorrow.
Bob
Do you have a press?If not a large vise can be used.
Fly
I didn't have the meat grinder to use- got to find Grandma's old one I've got stashed somewhere.
I hope the wife didn't give it to Salvation Army, or some such. :groner:
I just took a 2# lead hammer and mashed the pieces I took from the can in a plastic butter tub until it was broken into small pieces, then put that into the ball mill for pulverizing.
Man, the ball mill does the job- it looks like carbon black or soot.
I ran the soot, last night, through an old spring loaded flour sifter 3 times to get out any chunks- those go back into the ball mill and will run until they are soot too. :grin:
DO NOT sneeze once it is this fine! :lol:
I took the air compressor and blew out the sifter after I was through and let me tell you that it don't take but a very little bit to form a large black cloud. :groner:
Thankfully, I was just inside the door of my shop................
Looks like I've ended up with about 1/2 lb. of charcoal flour.
Also, running the last chunks with those RB's will finish rounding out the sprues, so I am killing two birds with one stone! :grin:
I need to go back and read the "destructions" posted earlier for a refresher, then this weekend, I MIGHT get around to working the sulfur into flour (my next step, before the KNO3 phase), depending on what else I have to do.
I have a larger vise that I plan on using for the compression phase, once I get to that- I want loose powder around 3Fg granulation.
I still have to figure out what I am going to compress it in and what size to make that puck.............
I guess I should be taking and posting pictures too! :oops:
1.
KNO3,Charcoal & table sugar. A mix of 72/14/14 the yield of gas is 2.1 & solids is 0.35 per unit of weight.
2.
KNO3 & table sugar(normal white powder) the yield of gas is 2.25 & solids is 0.32 per unit of weight.
3.
BP the yield of gas is 1.57 & solids is 0.36 per unit of weight. Sulfur produces very little gas.
The 1st one I don't believe is optimized. In Europe some guys mix it 75/15/10, but it would have less power than the one I listed. Keep in mind that vel & the amount of gas/solids aren't a 1 to 1 relationship.
Neither of the 1st 2 may not work in traditional ML's. But do work in cartridge gun & cap & ball revolvers. I think they may work with inline MLs. I'm really a BP cartridge man & use the white powder. The 1st one most likely burns faster & ignites easier than number 2, because charcoal is a burn rate catalyst.
I don't have time to do more testing of the 1st one in the near future. I have a little more to do with primer compounds now & want to get back to DIY smokeless powders(my real interest). I might get some time to figure out a better ratio.
Well there it is the first batch. I got some screens from McMaster-Carr but I think they might be too fine for this process. I think I'll try a sieve like Atom an Fly suggested with a little bigger openings. This was a 10X10 but the openings are really small for rubbing a damp ball of powder over.
Next batch starts tomorrow. This will definitely be a learning process. No problem though because I have a PHD from the school of hard knocks. My old man always said I didn't learn easily. He hated to admit it but the fruit didn't fall far from the tree.
Bob
Hey do this just for me.Tomorrow get a tea spoon & lay out a patch of your powder in
a line on a ole 2X4 & stay back & put a match to one end.If it goes poof you got some
good powder Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Fly Post back
PS, the reason tomorrow, it should be dry if you keep it in the house over night!
Later Fly
Yep, it went pooof pretty quick.
This batch is pretty crumbly when you crunch it between your fingers. I think the dextrin is going to be needed with this method for resilient grains. Probably not a problem in a ML but compressing it in a BP cartridge might be an issue for consistency.
For the compressed puck method, how do you break up your pucks into powder? On that one site the guy uses a ball bat to bust them up and then screens it for grade, just wondering if there might be a more efficient way to do it.
Bob
O yes you do need the dex to bind it or it will turn back to meal.Tell you what I did for the
first time yesterday.
I have always corned my cap & ball revolver powder because of the extra volume with none
corned powder.Well I have used all my corned powder up & was wanting to shoot my remy.
I went and & weighed out my 35 gains of none corned powder.I poured all I could get into
a cylinder & then took a dowl & pushed the powder down a little till it was all seated,not
much presure at all.
I then put the cylinder back on the gun & seated all the balls.I went to the back yard & checked the accuracy & it'shot the same.
WOO HOO!
Fly
how do you break up your pucks into powder? On that one site the guy uses a ball bat to bust them up and then screens it for grade, just wondering if there might be a more efficient way to do it.
Yea that's what do also.Corning kind of a pain that's why I been testing powder with
the differant binders & going by weights.Now you can crush it with your press but it's
no faster than busting it up the a dowl or bat.
Fly
Fly
For #2 see this link:
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/june2007/imhv3.pdf
This is a US gov publication. I think DuPont came up with the process.
As for #1 I think there is one in German for a 75/15/10(?) mix. I'll have to check.
I'm pretty sure with corned powder, the sulfur is the binder; it plasticly flows into the charcoal. (that's why it takes so much pressure to press the cakes)
Today is sulfur pulverization day for me- will start with the bucket and ball bat technique.
I've got a lot of big chunks of sulfur my uncle gave me over 25 years ago.
He got them from a place he worked that use anhydrous sulfur- at my request, for just this very purpose!
Back then (before computers and internet) the price of BP was beginning to climb- I was attempting to do research into this very topic, but it was much more difficult to find the info, and librarians weren't very cooperative in assistance. :sad:
In this case, thank God For the arrival of the internet! (Or maybe we should thank Al Gore- he invented it, right?) :bigsmyl2:
Do any of you guys use a blender for crushing up your charcoal?
The only problem with a blender is the charcoal will tear it up pretty fast.Now
my buddy's that make much more than me use a electric garbage distsposal.
You can buy a ole meat grinder for 10 bucks in second hand stores.
Fly:drinks:
Why ask?Go for it!
Fly
So far, for me, the ball bat and bucket works great for busting any of the components into smaller pieces. (I used an old aluminum T-Ball bat, and a large plastic butter bowl.)
The ball mill works best for making the charcoal into "flour"; the ball bat and bucket seems to be enough for the sulfur, I guess becuase the sulfur is harder (ball milling the sulfur takes longer than using the substitute mortar/pestal).
I have sifted all components through my sifter after using the above methods, so I should have decent uniformity, and be good to make my first batch very soon. I have about 8 oz. of charcoal, a little over 1 lb. of sulfur, and exactly 1 lb. of KNO3 to begin my experimentation now. Individual components store very handily in plastic mayo jars, too! :grin:
I still need to rig my vise for pressing a puck or stick - probably the very next thing I am going to work on tomorrow.
I have decided to use denatured alcohol during the processing, as it is pure and more easily acquired than 90% isopropyl. Should I choose to experiment with a binder later on, this would give me one up for using shellac for that.
I still need to make other batches of charcoal from willow, cedar, etc. to add to the fun, and pick up some more stump remover to have sufficient future stock on hand.
This is just too much "primitive" fun! :bigsmyl2:
Hi all. New on the forum, though I've read for years.
Pardon if already mentioned and I missed it, but I've always understood one should use the hardest lead balls available in milling. The soft cast ones supposedly wear away and you end up with lead infused bp. Powder -> smoke -> your nose and lungs, with much of that ending up in your GI.
I've never seen wear rates vs. hardness for milling though. Be neat if anyone who happens to be using soft lead balls actually reported weight of cleaned balls before and after, ball hardness (mill load, type of mill, and duration of run). I think that would be a start to give folks an idea as to the reality of any risk.
I like a good science project, but wonder if anyone else has already checked the wear on their balls?
:lol:
With all the old salts around I figure someone may already have checked. :)
Best regards,
DrB
They will wear away, for sure after a while.What I have done is this.I bought some thin
wall stainless steel 3/4 ID tubing & cut it up in 1" long sec,s.
I then melted my lead & filled each one.Then I peened the ends to hold the lead in.
The stainless is no spark, & works great.
Fly
I am using 680 dia. RB in my Thumbler's Tumbler "ball mill". They are 682 diameter and 465 gr., as cast.
I have used 30 new balls in each batch- the pounding of the charcoal into flour also rounds out the sprue on the RB, killing two birds in the process. It takes a little longer to completely round them out, than it takes to crush the charcoal.
I put 40 into the sulfur, so now I have abused 100 RB- I can check the weight of these to see if there is any change from the original casting weight.
After a few extra hours in the mill, they have no sprue now, and are very round- they roll perfectly across the bench top, but do have a somewhat rough surface.
Will be removing the sulfur batch shortly, and can see how they look, etc.
West coast pines will be pitchy if they are young.
The old growth pines I mill and use for CFF is not pitchy. When the trees are large, the wood is completely different from young growth. Takes on a magical form. I can't explain it to well, but it just is special for everything I've compared it with and used it for.
I'm interested in what our old growth manzanita would do for your powder. This wood has horse power. I've got some of the oldest here I've ever seen. Let me know if someone would like to try some.
Charlie, thanks! :)
Those .682"s are dead soft? Have you some that you've used to mill with nitrate, too?
DrB I cast all my ball's from pure lead.I mill KNO-3 sulfur & coal together.
Fly
Well, here is what I learned today. :groaner:
I will never mill sulfur again in my ball mill! :lol:
I left it on all night- when I opened it the balls were coated like a shell with fine sulfur (looked like malted milk balls with out the chocolate) and there was one big ball of sulfur (formed from the flour and caked up) the harder grains had not been pulverized, and I had to pound them with my bat and bucket mortar/pestal then sift. I just rubbed the cake out through a screen and got it back to powder.
The mortar/pestal is the way to go with the sulfur, IMHO.
It was warm over night, and the temperature reached 85 in my shop today, so the humidity is on the increase- that must be why it caked over night. Looked pretty neat, though- about the size of a tennis ball.:grin:
Not going to mill KNO3- it is fine enough as received in the stump remover bottle, and it is water soluble, too. I am going to look for a formula for supersaturation of KNO3 in water so I know how much to use and not waste any, too.
I am milling all of my components separately for stocking purposes so I can combine them in the necessary quantities as needed in developing my powder- when I combine them it will probably be as in the early posts made by Fly, IIRC.
The balls used in milling the charcoal have not lost any weight, so far. The ones used in the sulfur gained weight! :lol: (Have to figure out how to get the coating off them now.) I think it would take quite a long time for that to happen, and they would loose effectiveness before they got too small, IMO.
The RB's are nearly pure lead- I use a slight amount of tin in mine to aid casting.
Charcoal is a lot harder than you might imagine it to be, especially the larger pieces- it can tear up a blender, so might as well be rocks, which is what sulfur and KNO3 are. I guess you could use large steel ball bearings in this part of the process- that might increase the speed of milling the charcoal.
My sulfur started life as anyhydrous sulfur, and was gather from leaking pipes in a manufacturing process. It has been sitting for many years in a large plastic mayo jar and was very hard and brittle when I broke it with the ball bat. I ended up with 3 pounds of sulfur after getting things straightened out. :grin:
Headed to Wal-Mart tomorrow to get a kitchen strainer, and maybe another sifter. Will also stop by Lowes and get more alcohol and stump remover! :smile:
Did not get around to make my powder press today. I still need to go back and finsh rereading this entire thread, but what is everyone else finding to use for a press?
Pat Marlin has an excellent offer on the table. One of you more experienced powder makers should take him up on it. :smile: I'm not far enough along yet to go there.