Bully for you !!!
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Bully for you !!!
I can hand load my 45 Colt R92 with Lee 300gr cast to 1620fps, and 230-250 much faster. You can’t do that with 357. Of course, both are good for hunting at appropriate ranges.
Why would you carry a .357 mag for hunting or bear protection loaded with PB? Compared to H110 in a 125gr loading you're talking 600+ ft-lbs less energy and you're talking a 170gr bullet w/H110 having 300fps more velocity than a 158gr bullet W/PB. It's certainly a good load for lighter rounds in pistol but it's a big stretch IMO for serious business like a bear gun.
I wouldn't feel under armed with either although I'd say I would bias towards the flatter shooting .357 IF I was running loads that weren't BH only in the .45. At that point the round is a whole other animal.
I think the reference to Pb was for lead bullets, not powder. Just a guess.
Id say those were heavily under powered loads. I know from personal experience that a 357 mag, 158 graim XTP will from a 5" barrel.will completely transect a 300# black bear at 20 yards. The bullet entered at the tracheal notch and lodged in the right side hip joint. It passed thru the heart, one lung, the liver and stomach. It made an awful mess. This was a full power load btw.
Yes , this discussion is relevant , particularly with the plethora of jurisdictions ( or portions of states ) now allowing straight wall rifles in previous shotgun only . Additionally , there are areas and terrain where even seeing deer beyond 100-125 yds can't happen , and an metallic sight lever carbine is handy .
I have had 20in .357 in hand with deer intent , but deer didn't cooperate . Buy I Have shot Boar with .357 .
In the 9 pages of discussion , there is a major factor not yet discussed ; your beliefs and philosophy regarding expansion , either generally , or bore size specific .
Regular factory load 158gr JSP .357 gives 1700- ish from 20 inch early Rossi M92 . Said generic 158 JSP will penetrate +/- 3 Feet lengthwise into a Boar ( including passing thru the skull) . BUT , with no expansion .
IF you think .35 caliber is Big Enough to not " need " expansion , you're in high clover ! A JSP or cast bullet from .357 rifle will penetrate more than enough for " mere " deer .
If you prefer controlled expansion , such as expected from " normal " deer cartridges , it gets tricky Most factory load and component bullet JHP are designed for revolver velocities . ( They exist , but it's a very short list).
Personally , I've never reached a firm conclusion on this question regarding .357 .
* To Me * , .452 in is definitely big enough to be hunting effective with non expanding . Even with moderate velocity . Even at levels that would be conservative hunting loads from a long bbl revolver .
If low recoil is a factor , for youth , new shooters , or physical ailments , I'd rather have a .45 @ 900- 1,000 than a reduced .357 rifle .
Flatter trajectory ?Neither would be " flat" by big picture standards . You could crunch the numbers , and consult tables and ballistic software , and determine that .357 was comparitively flatter . But with either within typical or expected distances of not much over 100yds , and usually less , neither one is trajectory a limiting factor .
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Separately , the discussion about expected / adaquate grouping seems to be using different criteria .
Hitting within an 8in paper plate ( ie hitting @ desired POA), for a fast-ish offhand shot(s) , is respectable , and sufficient for Bambi's heart/ lung area .
For a scoped bolt or single shot from bench , or rest or sitting position with tight sling , 8 in group would be abysmal .
Never used one of them for deer....but I know my 1873 Uberti border rifle (18"0) has been much more accurate than the 45 colt Rossi I had. 1/2" at 50 and 3 3/4 at 100, 5 shots with factory sights. I've taken a couple hogs with it (HC lead SWC). I got a Marbles tang sight I need to get mounted for 100 yards.
I remember a cartoon showing a group of cave men around a dead mammoth with a single spear in it. One looks to the rest and tells em to "write that spot down". If you can't hit it in a kill spot, yes it may die......EVENTUALLY!
I use a bow for deer here in Illinois so shot placement is extremely vital! Given the choices of the two calibers I would say both will get the job done as long as you shoot within you comfort zone.
I wouldn't be so sure on that trajectory. A 45 colt say 1000 fps, sighted in 2 1/2" high at 50 yards, is 4" low at 100 yards. For an absolute maximum 100 yards, you could make it work. Compare that with a 357 magnum which with a 158 gr can easily break 2000 fps, lets say 1800 fps because someone might like heavy bullets. You can zero at 125 yards, only be 2" high at 50 yards, and only be 2 1/2" low at 150 yards.
As a 75 yard, open sighted carbine, I guess I can kinda-sorta understand why someone might choose a 45 colt. As a general use deer rifle, then I just don't see it. the 357 magnum is a world ahead of anything 45 colt can do, and the recoil is minimal. No need to reduce for kids.
With my 45 Colt 255 gr copper plated flat nose handload, which chronos at 1730 fps from a 20 inch Rossi 92, I have no trouble hitting a deer's shoulder (life size steel target) at 200 yards with the factory sights. And the recoil isn't bad either. Your 1000 fps assumption severely understated the flat trajectory of Colt 45 +P loads.
With my load and rifle the point blank range on a 7 inch target (3.5" max above or below point of aim) is 160 yds. With a good rest a 200 yard shot in open country would not be difficult. But here in the New Hampshire woods you can't even see that far. 75 yards is probably the max shot anyone takes.
This is a cast bullet site, which means everyone here is a handloader and not limited to what's available on the shelves. Why did you use 1000 fps for the 45 Colt?
Back in the early 2000's I shot quite a few deer with my Marlin 1894C and 180 grain WFN GC's going around 1750 fps. None moved more than 30 yards after being hit, with most of them going down where they stood. Holes were thumb sized all the way through. Put a hole that big through the vitals and they expire quickly.
Don't take much bullet to kill a thin skin animal. I'd put my money down for a 357 shooter verses a 45 long colt.
A .357 reaches it's limits with 200+ pound whitetails. But it will do the job with good shot placement of a Wide FN 180+grain slug cast of softer side lead going fast.
While a 45 Colt can be loaded with a mere roundball cast of 40-1 and do the same job. If the deer are 200+ pounds up to 250 grains cast soft with a WFN and easy to do. Or jump to a 300 grain and go shoot bears, big pigs, .... far beyond the league of the .357.
Big holes are always better.
I'd take you on that bet. If you are loading real 45 colt, not some super hotrod 454 in a 45 case, you are talking 255gr at about 1200 fps, and maybe 1100 tops with a 300 grain. That vs a 357 magnum, a 158 gr at around 2000 fps (Buffalo bore gets up to 2150 fps) or 180 gr at 1850 fps.
The 357 magnum is WAY more gun than a 45 colt. I don't care what kind of bullet you put in that 45 colt, a 357 magnum is going to make a far bigger hole unless you somehow make one hard enough that it doesn't expand. At the kinds of speeds they get in a rifle, it's going to expand. I'm not guessing, I can prove it on demand. My 327 federal rifle is more impressive than a 45 colt rifle, just go look in the hunting section to what it did to a full grown deer. When you can find a picture of a 45 colt (again, super hotroding to 454 levels does not count) that does that, you let me know. A 357 magnum is another step above that.
In a new model Ruger Blackhawk or Rossi 92, you can look at the 45 Colt the same way you would look at a 44 magnum. The Rossi 92 has been chambered in 44 mag and also 454 Casull I believe.
Even with 45 Colt +p it isn't nearly as flat shooting as a 357. Bullets with equal SD and BC will be about 300 fps slower in the 45 colt. For example a 255 is roughly equal to a 158 grain in sectional density but the 357 is at least 300 fps faster in that bullet weight.
The 45 Colt is an absolute hammer though, with muzzle energy exceeding a 30-30 and still more energy at 200 yards when shooting a 315 gr at 1600 fps. Too bad the 200 yard energy doesn't matter because it is 21" low. Maybe if I had a scope with turrets or drop lines. My peep can't be adjusted on the fly so I have it to shooting 1 inch high at 50 yards, zeroed at 85 yards and 1 inch low at 100. The rootinest tootinest 45 loads will only shoot flat for a max of 100 yards.
I use the 45 rifle on rainy or foggy days when deer driving. My 357 has a 3 MOA dot and gets used on fair days. The 357 is much easier to make hits at 150 and 200 yards, making it more ethical since 2 inches high at 75 is dead on at 135 and 2 inches low at 160. Literally no drop compensation at 150 - just hold dead on. 200 yard drop is only 8.5 inches and is still hitting as hard as a 4" 357 at the muzzle , 1297 fps 587 fpe.
I have killed a few deer with the 45 colt and have been impressed. 2 out of 3 deer were at full run and it rolled them. I have killed about 15 with the 357 rifle.
The hardest part about the 357 is making a tough ductile bullet that will withstand 1800-2000 fps impact velocity and give you controlled expansion. Many alloys will want to mushroom at those velocities and they will either fragment or mushroom huge and lose all the penetration. Compared to a 30-30 which might be fired with lead alloy bullets at similar weight and velocity, the 357 has low sectional density. You can let your 30-30 mushroom huge and run soft alloy if it is accurate and you will still get decent penetration. The 357 is low sectional density to start with, so it can only mushroom a small amount before penetration is sacrificed.
I like to use 2-2-96 water dropped for my deer drive bullets. This will mushroom anywhere from 60 cal at 5 yards to 45 cal at 100 yards and penetrates deep. Get it dialled in just right and you can get 5 water jugs penetration just like a 30-30 core lokt and a beautiful mushroom 55 caliber or so. I also use 2.5-2.5-95 AC for when we are not driving. This bullet mushrooms a little too much up close, but continues to mushroom all the way to 200 yards in the rifle. I like higher penetration bullets for drives because shots are close and never perfectly broadside. 5 jugs penetration is enough for a texas heart shot or break both shoulders of a buck and exit.
I would not worry about it one bit. In a revolver, maybe. But for the few full power loads you're going to be shooting in the rifle (I'm assuming), you won't have an issue. Ranch Dog uses Lilgun in I think all his pistol carbines, and I don't think he's had an issue at all.
My .357 Rossi has had quite a few of them through it and still shoots lights out.
Just my opinion...
I also want to add that I am interested in your 45 +p data in long barrels if you have it.
Some of the loads in the new Western manual look really interesting. They have some loads with slower powders like AA 11FS and 1680 that have high charge weights and still make decent pressure. I know my 357 loads with Lil' Gun are full below the bullet and my 45 Colt loads with Lil' Gun have a decent amount of air space, telling me that the 45 colt could benefit from a slower powder that doesn't hit 30k psi as soon and makes more gas.
Anybody load any 45 colt with AA 11FS or 1680? If you can really get that much powder in there at those kind of pressures you might be able to get the 45 Colt 250 gr up around 2000 fps and 300 gr around 1800 fps without exceeding 30k psi.
Which 158 gain lead bullet are you using in the .357?
I've had very similar results (in testing on milk jugs) with the 360640 cup HP (153 grains) with 50/50 HTed for ~20 bhn. The nose blows off, but the penetration is still very good, even at 2000 fps impact velocity. I haven't hunted with it.