Are you sure about that, just as sure as you are that SEE doesn't exist, watch this video............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguN4KyGQCM
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Are you sure about that, just as sure as you are that SEE doesn't exist, watch this video............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguN4KyGQCM
SG, perhaps not, but the article does lack any extensive repeated tests. Add to that the problem that it is a subject that has not really been evaluated by any recognized ballistics lab or powder maker. I find it hard to believe that among all the reputable powder makers, given the potential liability, NONE has does any research on this terrible threat to their very existance.(using their handloading data!)
SG, perhaps not, but the article does lack any extensive repeated tests. Add to that the problem that it is a subject that has not really been evaluated by any recognized ballistics lab or powder maker. I find it hard to believe that among all the reputable powder makers, given the potential liability, NONE has does any research on this terrible threat to their very existance.(using their handloading data!)
I'm sure theri ballistics folks and attorneys have looked into it and are confident it is just so much internet fueled BS.
One WOULD think if a handloader were at serious risk of the phenomenon it would be amongst the long list of warnings in just about every loading manual.
No doubt, if the load data producers thought it relevant, they would certainly have included a descriptive warning at the behest of their attorneys.
"As for 20 gauge shells dropped in a 12 bore, followed by a 12 and then fired..... well it will take apart a brand new 870 too. "
Maybe or maybe not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguN4KyGQCM
Of course some yahoo will see this video and make the assumption that each and every shotgun barrel ever made could withstand this same abuse.
Why not prove your fine old British Damascus barrel can equal the performance of that bargain basement pump gun.
Now in this video
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...2-gauge-barrel
They claim the same condition would blow up a gun based on the results of a wad stuck about 2/3 the way up the barrel.
The problem with such assumptions is that the exact positioning of an obstruction can make all the difference.
In blow up testing of the early SMLE barrels they found that if a bullet was stuck in the bore close to the nose of the bullet to be fired the barrel held up fine and both bullets exited the muzzle. If the bullet was stuck anywhere more than three inches into the bore the barrel snapped off at the point of obstruction as cleanly as if sawn off.
When testing the old 14" rod type rifle grenades the much less solid obstruction of a warped rod at a distance of around 11 inches and only a blank cartridge being fired could blow out the bolt head, while with a newer design short rod (6") grenade if the rod was bent there would be a barrel burst or split but the action remained intact.
Even slightly different conditions can produce directly opposite results.
Well, in prowling the web, I found a bunch rifles suitable for the SEE blowup test. All are sitting now @ <$200. Mosins, japs and mausers. While our residents experts only want to blow up my gun and apparently can't afford one of their own, I can. Come June, I'll be trying handbook loads of fast powders behind cast boolits as well as 50% reduced loads of slow burners. They will be fired dead level to see if I can achieve the mythic "flashover" effect. Our experts apparently don't know that the 333 OKH was experimented with decades ago to deliberatly achieve that effect in the hope that more even ignition might improve performance. It did not but no rifles blew up either.
Anyone notice the frantic backpeddaling going on now that our "experts" are confronted with the harsh reality of someone actually testing their myth ?
"Even slightly different conditions can produce directly opposite results."
AKA, no matter what my results, they are invalid since the conditions were "slightly different".
YUK< YUK< YUK ! always leave an escape hatch !
Can someone help me put this as my new signature?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...psbmmv67zy.jpg
Larry, why don't you buy one and try it out. No need to keep flogging and taunting
Humble claims SEE does not exist so in his mind his rifle should be in no danger if submitted for these tests.
Larry has forgotten more about reloading than humble will ever hope to come up with.
Is that grape Kool-Aid or cherry Tomme Boy?
Your very last post was a pic about freeing your mind, yet you make a statement like that, that you have absolutely no way of any idea of its validity one way or the other.
Yes, Larry makes a nice post, and yes, Larry is very good at helping new folks getting started, but in all the years of the arguing about SEE, I still have yet to read anyone post any real, quantifiable results of scientific testing.
At this point, it's just one opinion against another, and now we're getting down to "My Daddy can beat up your Daddy", and you're a better guy than that,,,,,,
Poor Tomme, he is so anxious to post something stupid that he can't even be bothered to read previous posts. Before his "why don't you buy one" post I said:
"Well, in prowling the web, I found a bunch rifles suitable for the SEE blowup test. All are sitting now @ <$200. Mosins, japs and mausers. While our residents experts only want to blow up my gun and apparently can't afford one of their own, I can. Come June, I'll be trying handbook loads of fast powders behind cast boolits as well as 50% reduced loads of slow burners."
Reminds me of the Democrats on TV shows who are in such a rush to talk over the opposition, that they never listen FIRST.
Now the two premier SEE advocates have shut up as they are in a panic by the thought that someone will actually test the 100% myth of SEE.
Maybe I'll be able to get published in Handloader ????? Chuckle !
would sure be nice if a few people would quit acting like little girls!
Sound like you are the only one whining. I sent a email into HP White like you say is the know all for this. NOTHING! Maybe because they know something, maybe not. But like you said the silence is deafening.
People have tried to show that this thing exist but some just refuse to open their mind a little bit to see what has been proven. But since they have not seen it themselves then it does not matter.
Larry is just trying to be nice. He has been baited into these type of things before in the past and that got him banned because of it. That and a feud with some of the mods. If anyone is looking like a DEM it is you. You make brash statements and whine like a child when anything is shown to you as to what we are talking about. But this poor Iowa farm kid does not know anything. Except I am a good judge of character. And you sir have very little.
From "Handbuch f�r den Wiederlader" by K.D.MEYER, who was then a director of German DEVA Institute.
"For getting a starting-load, orient yourself on rounds with known load-data. Look for rounds with similar case volume and similar bullet diameter and reduce the max.-load of this rounds 25% (better 30%) Don't do this with very progressive powders like f. e. Norma 205, because "underloads", like described anywhere else in this book with this kind of powders can cause S.E.E.
This effect is still a problem for the ballisticans. In the proofhouse of the city Ulm, happened this effect two times in a very short time period. The pressure-measure was dimensioned very big so this part could be used further after the S.E.E. But most of the other parts and the test barrels were destroyed. If fired in a hunting rifle, this load would destroy the rifle in numerous parts."
Reported by P. T. Kekkonen
"A main reason of S.E.E. is disorder of powder ignition. Powder charge does not burn after the explosion of a priming pellet. It smoulders like a German tinder, developing a cocktail of explosive gasses like nitrogen oxides, hydrogen (very reactive "In Statu Nascendi" hydrogen - not yet bound to H2 molecules), and carbon monoxide. When this highly flammable mixture of gasses catches fire from still smouldering solid powder remnants, may the "BANG !" be horrible. Mere three grains of gasses may literally wreck the strong .308 Win. rifle action. (Three grains of smouldered solid powder is still three grains of material, despite of it's gaseous form of existence)."
"Highest measured detonation pressure was 10 000 atmospheres. A pietzo-electric pressure gauge was broken and highest grade on the pressure scale was this 10 kilobars. A sturdy test-barrel of a German gun-proofing laboratory was wrecked, of course.
This disastrous test was repeated with another set of equipment for the sake of comparison. Pressures of first shots were slightly less than normal. It might be fifth or sixth shot, when the new test-shooting barrel blew up. Again a pressure gauge disintegrated and a scale told: 10 000 atmospheres! It was presumably just a fraction from whole horrible truth, because so called "wave pressure" of a detonation may exceed reading A HUNDRED THOUSAND ATMOSPHERES, when the explosive material is in gaseous form of existence, pre-heated and pressurized before explosion.
Caliber of tested cartridge was .243 Winchester, bullet weight 80 grains, powder then-new NORMA MRP, and the charge... surprisingly... just 15 % less than a maximum (compressed !) load. It was STILL A REDUCED CHARGE DETONATION; not one caused by an excessive charge, because the charge could not be excessive with those components in use. Light bullet and slowly burning powder is not an advisable combination of loading components for .243 Win., known as a caliber prone to S.E. Effect. (It's "big brother" .308 and "kid brother" .22-250 are considerably less risky; last mentioned presumably because of more steep 25 degrees shoulder angle).
Needless to say: All the loading components were examined carefully afterwards. They were faultless. Just the burning rate of powder was selected wrongly for the bullet weight. MRP powder is O.K. for .243 Win., but for the heaviest bullets of this caliber; weight 100 or 105 grains. For the most usual 90 grainer bullets is some more fast-burning propellant advisable.
Noted was a slightly less than a tenth of second lasting delay between hit of a striker and explosion. This same delay is noted also by survivors of S.E.E. accidents, if they can remember something from the "big bang". (Usual recollection is: "I squeezed the trigger and woke up in the hospital"). If the delay lasts a second or more, it is just an usual hang-fire, without signs of excessive pressure."
Quotes found here
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr...pics/2175122/2
Multigunner
Very interesting, thanks for posting. It was with Norma MRP powder many years ago the M3000 Mauser action was destroyed with from an S.E.E.. The cartridge was the 280 Remington.
Larry Gibson
"Reported by P. T. Kekkonen" who, what, when, where is, as usual lacking. Kinda odd that IF Norma 205 took apart this gun and Larry's conveniently absent Mauser, that Norma has NEVER had a thing to say about it OR the makers of ANY slow burning magnum powders.
Think what you will but these companies are run by risk averse businessmen and would never open themselves up to this type of liability IF the claims had any merit.
OR are they're so greedy they don't care ....... yup and "W" blew up the WTC too.
BTW the quote from the German on SEE was lifted from a translation dated 1999, so it's even older than the Handloader article !
Hard to get HP White or any credible lab to waste their time on a myth !
IF Norma, Dupont and all the other power makers are not concerned, I'm not either.
Narrowing down my list of test guns ...... whatever will the experts say when none blow up ?
WHICH only begs the question of why, if they are so sure of SEE's existance THEY are unwilling to reproduce it for us dummies ????
BSing the members should lead to a ban !
"What do they mean about hang-fire. "
The hangfire effect was not due to the primer hang firing, it was due to the unusual hesitation of the smoldering power.
I've had plenty of hangfires back when I used milsurp .303 ammo.
I pulled the bullet from one of the duds from that batch days later and a visible vapor poured out of the case.
I cut the shoulder off the case and found the cordite strands had melted on the ends closest to the primer like burnt nylon rope ends. The primers weren't the entire problem there it was degraded cordite propellant.