Just received an email stating my .41 Special brass has shipped and I should have it on the 4th...so they are ahead of schedule..
Bob
Printable View
Just received an email stating my .41 Special brass has shipped and I should have it on the 4th...so they are ahead of schedule..
Bob
Argh!!!! Ok bite the bullet time....
Any issues with crimping the Special brass? Does any particular make of crimper work better than the others, do any require machining to reach, is this a non problem.....?
RCBS will not crimp .41spl unless it is shortened. Lee, Dillon and Hornady will all adjust to crimp.
IMy RCBS will not crimp --but I have a Lee die set and it will crimp just fine-- so my .41 special is size and dprime... prime - charge --seat boolit-- then crimp said boolit
Was searching through all of the articles I've gathered on .41s over the years, and found the one I'd recalled mentioning use of the Speer 3/4 jacket HP. Author mentioned using that 200gr bullet on deer, and included a picture of it with a factory 175gr Silvertip. The Winchester at "182 paces" expanded as if from a textbook photo and the Speer round, from the old Blazer factory ammo which he claims ran just over 1200fps from a 4" S&W, just has a slightly distorted nose having taken a deer at "much shorter" range. I've used the HP and SP versions of these Speers on one deer each, the HP from a S&W and the SP from a Marlin, and both penetrated completely--no recovered projectile to examine. I recently gave a friend one each of the SP 220gr and Nosler HP to test with a hardness tester and he said both came in as pure or nearly pure lead.
Nothing to complain about the fact both the HP and SP versions of the Speer were effective in one shot each for me, but that barely-distorted Speer in the article doesn't seem right.
Attachment 156323
Another magazine with an article on .41s (Mike Venturino's non-magnum .41 loads in Handloader Aug-Sep 2006) has a column by Dave Scovill regarding Relative Stopping Power and he relates an instance of a flock of sheep needing to be destroyed. A guy named John Zemanek took the opportunity to test a variety of .357 and .44 bullets from long bbl'd handguns and in the case of the .44, through a Winchester M94. In the handguns (the rifle was only used with 300gr Speer and Hornady bullets), the best performers were the Speer 3/4 jacketed HPs, and XTP's in the standard 158gr and 240gr weights (no lighter XTP's listed; lighter bullets were JHP/JHC). Nothing about recovered bullets, although that's likely covered in the full description which is listed as being in Handloader's Sept-Oct 1991 issue.
Continuing the search for more information on the Speer 3/4 jacket performance, I found this from a S&W Forum http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloadi...46-gr-jhp.html . "Superman" claims "The reason these bullets don't expand very much is because of the hard alloy used in the core and the thick cup used as the jacket. These are basically jacketed Keith bullets that cut holes like a wadcutter in paper targets just like Keiths do. The nose, either the soft point or the hollow point "melts" off and what is left looks like a little ashcan that really penetrates." In the photo below the text is a 200gr HP .41 that looks to have acted like a Partition in shedding its nose with the rear half continuing penetration, intact from the jacket mouth back. Seems to have gotten it wrong about the hard alloy as it's apparent it's a soft lead that expanded and peeled off, but the penetration even with a good amount of the weight removed is apparently sufficient for deer hunting. Certainly not as much as you'd get from a harder SWC design that retains all/nearly all of its weight in terminal performance, but when a 240gr .41 SWC from Paco Kelly can penetrate a steer from the rear and break a front shoulder a bit less weight on a deer should be plenty.
..."SuperMan"...that is me...
Could very well be that I got it wrong about the alloy used in the Speer bullets. I have a few boxes left and next time I am down at my friend's place casting I'll try and remember to bring some as he has a hardness tester.
A real shame that Speer dropped that bullet.
Bob
I should have noticed the use of jugs of water and boards! :)
It'll be a curious finding if yours don't come back at a similar rating. Either they'd have had varying production with these or the LBT tester's reliability (or use of it) would be in question. The quenched wheel weights castings I've made in my .41 molds have come in at 16 or higher when tested on the same device. I would expect little to no shear off with harder boolits, but your testing with HP'd Miha 170gr rounds shows enough deformation that, contained in a heavy cup like the Speer design they might wear down to the top of the cup no matter their hardness--at 1350fps.
One must remember something about that "test".... That bullet was run through six gallon jugs of water and then it ran into a 3/4" piece of marine plywood. I don't exactly recall what happened next as it was a while ago but I am thinking that bullet then ran into a 4x4" post and sunk up to the base....or that is the one that stuck into the second piece of plywood I put up after whatever I shot first.
Since then I have standardized on one 1/2 gallon paper milk carton, 5 gallon jugs and then a stop jug that has a ballistic vest panel wrapped around it. I have no doubt however that bullet will make it all the way to the vest.
In doing a fingernail test I recall those bullets were much harder than pure led.
To those who have not seen the posts on "real" Keith bullets it is a very interesting read. The original .410 Keith design had a .275" meplat as did the original .429 .44 bullet. Before he had his stroke Keith worked with a local policeman and the redesign increased the meplat to .310 for the .41 and .335 for the .44.
NEI made the original molds and one of the members here found two originals in .41 and .45. They and the .357 and .44 are now being run by NOE.
...figured one more mold can't hurt so I ordered one...
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloadi...ble-again.html
Bob
A batch of .41 Special brass sounds like a solid plan for the range of bullet designs that do not work in various .41 Mag revolvers. Just looked at the NOE "Real Keith" designs and see among the 4 calibers offered the .41 will make for the longest extension beyond case mouth of any, albeit just barely beating out the .44 design:
.45 sticks out .348" from case mouth to tip of nose,
.357 sticks out .360",
.44 extends .391" and
.41 extends .396".
The full caliber front driving band is also longest from the .41 and .44, although issues brought about by that aspect is solved in the same way as too great an OAL, by crimping over the front.
or by trimming the case --- I TOO have wrote those words "I want one" at NOE
Too many cases to crank through the trimmer. My Specials are due here tomorrow!
My Starline brass arrived and I starting loading. First thing I discovered is this stuff was so clean that I could barely force it in and out of my Dillon carbide sizer. I ran a few cases over a Lyman M die expander and got my micrometer out and did some measuring of unsized cases versus the expanded ones. A fellow could maybe skip sizing and get adequate neck tension straight out of the box, but I decided to be conservative and size all the cases anyway. A touch of Imperial sizing wax on each case let me easily size them, followed by a trip through the vibrating tumbler, and I was back in business.
I dug out a box of 226 grain SWC, from a older group buy mould for the "41-200-Keith" done by NOE back in 2009-2010. I loaded them over 7.0 gr. of Unique with a Winchester LP primer and headed for the local shooting spot. I got there before the mud could thaw and set up a target at 25 yards. I loaded up my 4" S&W 657 and proceeded to shoot the best groups I've ever gotten with this gun. My shooting technique leaves much to be desired, but these groups were as good as I can hold with a 4" sixgun. I didn't set up a chrono, but I'll guess that these are traveling at 900+ fps. Recoil was snappy, but not punishing. I'm going to load up a bunch of this combination and call it good.
7.0 grains of Unique is the same load I am using but with a group buy Lee 250 Keith. With a 200-230 7.0 in a Special case gives the same velocity as 8.0 in a Magnum case.
I've been working with the 265 grain GC mold that I bought from the guy on the Single-Action forums. Worked up to 22.0 grain of H110 in .41 Magnum brass but was getting a few flattened primers so back down to 21.0 grains.. Fired 15 test rounds the other day from a FA 654 and a custom Gary Reeder 5-shot Super Blackhawk and all looked good. For a S&W or standard 6 shot Ruger 20.0 would probably be better. Currently running 19.0 with a 300 grain and they shoot fine even out of the Smith...so you just gotta try each boolit design to see what works best.
Bob
...to brighten every .41 Lovers Day....
http://singleactions.proboards.com/t...hot-41-special
Kgb, well that's disappointing.
That Speer bullet (in HP or SP) was my 1st choice loading my .41 special for years. My thinking was the lead was dead soft & could be counted on to expand into a perfect mushroom at even low impact velocities. With the copper cup protecting the bore from leading. The silvertip looks 100% better!
Thanks so much for posting this information.
41
Has anyone ever seen .41/175 grain Silvertip bullets for sale as a reloading component? I have seen .44s and .357s but never .41s... Sierra makes an excellent 170 grain JHC for reloading and at one time Remington made 170 and 200 grain JHP ammunition and components.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...s/DSCF4575.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...s/DSCF4578.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...s/DSCF4621.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...s/DSCF4625.jpg
those Remington's were really hot -- with a huge muzzle blast- extracted just fine- fun --as long as hearing protected -- nice six gun
I'd want to see some ballistic gelatin results to know for sure, but Noslers are supposed to be dead soft and they matched the Speers pretty closely on my friend's tester. If talking about a self-defense bullet, the Silvertip would be the only way to fly, or maybe one of the all-copper HP's, as they're available as factory loads.
Nosler's have always given me excellent expansion and accuracy to match. I've used them in 41 mags and 45 Colt hog hunting and never had a complaint..except from the swine ;)
Got to cast some of the Mehic 265 grain Trueshot clone this week. Decided to try the pentapoint first...looks like 256 grains sized, lubed and gas check in place...about 248-9 bare. Loaded a dozen up with 21.0 grains of H110. Hopefully I'll get out just to check the pressure sometime soon...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psonnloois.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psufgivlma.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...pslsl81jra.jpg
This is the 265 I cast last month...a Lee custom mold from one of the vendors over on Single-Actions.com...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psu8fc2rrf.jpg
Both boolits drop right into the Freedom Arms tight throats no problem...
Bob
Good designs, then.
I loaded up some .41Special cases with wadcutters from a past Lee group buy mold and 7.0gr of Titegroup, with the 215V and 7.0 of Titegroup, and the Lee group buy 230gr LFN using the Titegroup load as well as 7.0 and 8.0 of BE-86. Need another powder like I need another boolit mold, but it was a gun show impulse buy for under $20. Who could say no?
Best-shooting was 7.0 of BE-86 and it's at a good velocity through the rifle of 1125fps for PC cowboy silhouette. In the revolver that's 937fps, and I'll have to try it again to confirm accuracy there--pretty cold yesterday. That LFN feeds through the Marlin very well in the full Mag case, no problem with the shorter case, and a friend with .357 and .44 Marlin 1894s tells me the Special length cases present no problems in his rifles either. Some time ago I made up a good round with 265gr Cast performance LFN's and those will just barely cycle through the Marlin in that they work when run slowly. I do like the look of those Trushot castings.
21.0 grains of H110 should be about 1300 fps from a 5.5' barrel...and a deer killin' machine.
GREAT NEWS!!!!
https://www.henryrifles.com/rifles/henry-big-boy-steel/
Wondering how that new Henry in .41 is also going to fire .38 SPL and .357 Magnum!CD
Have been looking for a boolit for a 4.25" Freedom Arms Model 97. Have tried a number of different loads and bullets but just never hit on the right combination. Finally tried the Mehic mold (can't remember the number) that throws a 180 grain round nose flap point and has pins for a large HP, small HP and panta point.... With 14.0 grains of Blue Dot the boolits run 1400 fps from a 4" S&W 657. The boolits are pictured above after being recovered from the water test box... Great expansion and they penetrate. So I tried some in the 97 and have decided to make this the official load (until something even better comes along [smilie=b:)....
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...ps8g0mozrq.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...ps2eevymtf.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psqahmbwe2.jpg
I have a couple hundred rounds of all the boolits loaded and about 200 of the HPs left. Been working on an 8# can of Blue Dot since the mid-1980s and these loads finished it... Now to see if I can find some more before I run out of these....
Bob
.41 Special loads for the Taurus Tracker
Like the Freedom Arms 97, the cylinder on the Taurus Tracker line of handguns is shorter than most other models. Not only does this limit the LOA of some cast bullet loads but also impedes the simultaneous ejection of all five round of spent brass at once.
Another possible problem that can occur using standard Magnum length brass that has a bullet seated almost to the end of the chamber is that because the guns are light recoil can cause the bullet to jump the crimp tying up the cylinder.
I have three Trackers. The most used is a 4" Titanium. It has become my go-to hiking handgun. Initial loads were the Winchester 175 Silvertip or handloads of 8.0 grains of Unique under a 210 Berry's plated bullet or a Accurate Molds 41-215V that weights 205 grains and has a .37 meplat. In 2012 was at the SHOT Show and saw the C.O.P. (Copper Only Projectiles) booth and liked the even deeper/wider HP than the Barnes bullets had. When the ammunition finally became available I bought some and tried it my lighter weight guns like the TiTracker and 357 S&Ws... Velocity was under 1100 fps and expanded nicely...recoil was mild. Unfortunately they have now gone out of business although some ammo and bullets are still available at MidwayUSA.
But this still did not solve the problem of ejecting all five long cases at once so decided to use the MiHec bullets in the previous post with 8.0 grains of Unique in a .41 Special case. 7.0 grains with a 210 grain bullet is running in the 1000 fps area so these should run about 1100 which is what I am looking for. Will clock them as soon as the weather gets a little better.
Gun with five rounds of C.O.P. and a Desantis Speed Scabbard for a L-frame S&W.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...ps9djwgchm.jpg
...you can do "shots" from these...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...ps6r6sktss.jpg
With two 170 grain MeHic...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psyxqt1ohj.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...pskirnrgzi.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psf7rpccjx.jpg
Length difference....
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psow0cii5r.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...pssn2w8ile.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...pshkcxwbd3.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...ps23hvdm2y.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...pstdeizhmz.jpg
C.O.P. at 1100 fps and the HP at 1300 fps...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psqmopr2fc.jpg
HP and the PentaPoint...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psnz89sqmo.jpg
The four bullets from the Mehic Mold...170-177-179-180 grains...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...psjgol5qn8.jpg
So we shall see how these shoot from the TiTracker....
Bob
ps...I may be wrong on COP being out of business...looks like Midway is out of a lot of the ammo but backorders are ok...
interesting -stuff -- I have the SS version of the .41 Tracker
...I do too and I'm ashamed to say I have not fired it yet....
So as not to be lost....
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3549597
Mica...how is the reloading going for your .41?? Have you decided on a bullet yet?
As to shooting without hearing protection...anything is going to rattle your ear drums but something in the area of 6.0 of Unique or 231 should hurt less than others. I like 8.0 grains of Unique with most any bullet for my Smith revolvers...
Bob
Shot the Taurus TiTracker yesterday with the 170 MeHic HP/8.0 grains of Unique load...5 shots averages 1122 fps...right where I wanted it. Recoil was very manageable. Fired fifteen rounds DA at fifteen yards and all of them stayed in the smooth center area of a 6" paper desert plate...
...would have tested the loads for the FA 97 but left the ammo home....
Bob
The several posts in the link posted by RJM52 give high praise to a SAECO mold #411 and also mention that it is difficult to find. I assume this means it is no longer available from SAECO. Found one thread here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...SAECO-411-Mold
Has anyone run a GB on this design, either MP or NOE?
I believe this is the standard original Keith design...so yes they have been done. The MP buy took two-plus years to come in but it is a great mold.
There is a group buy over at NOE for the updated Keith design but it is on hold as one of their machines is down and has to be replaced.
Bob
On the back burner, I started the refinish project and found some damage parts inside my gun so I ordered replacements and before they showed up I ended up trading my Hammer to a member here so still waiting on parts. I haven't decided on a mould yet either, might try a Lee swc just to start I have a 180 grain 357, 400 grain 480 ruger and wanted something in the middle of those but now I have a 44 mag as well so now I have a whole different set of whatcha Wana do's?
A few years ago, I loaded 50 Ranch Dog TL411-255-RF PB cast with COWW, TL'd with 45-45-10, and loaded with 19gr. H110. Too Hot, the first ten shots gave my Marlin 1894s some leading. The remainder of that box has been sitting around ever since, to be shot up or pulled.
Yesterday, I finally got around to loading the same boolit design, but with a GC and lubed with SL68B. I loaded some with 15gr. of 2400. This was a much more accurate load in my Marlin, then the H110...Or maybe the GC had more to do with it?
After my accuracy testing, I shot up all the PB/H110 loads, with some of these new GC/2400 loads mixed in, to clean up any Lead fouling that would build up. I finished up with the last 5 rounds of GC/2400 and the bore was nice and clean and the last 5 shoot group was well within my ability with Iron sights.
Next up is loading some of the PB with 7 or 8 gr. of Unique.