It is an awesome recipe and a great thread to read through. I do not think it will fade for a long, long time.
Thanks again and you have a good 'un, Guy
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It is an awesome recipe and a great thread to read through. I do not think it will fade for a long, long time.
Thanks again and you have a good 'un, Guy
Here are the steps as I understood them. Recluse, please feel free to correct as required.
ATTENTION: DO NOT USE AN OPEN FLAME IN THIS PROCEDURE
- Melt the Johnson Paste Wax (JPW), and cook off the solvents until you get a very viscous liquid.
When cooking down a whole can, somewhere between half and 1/4 can left is where u want to be.
Recluse used a temperature setting of 350F- Measure out:
- 45 units of cooked down JPW
- 45 units of Lee Liquid Alox (LLA)
- 10 units of Odorless Mineral Spirits
- Add the proper amount of LLA and stir/blend into the liquefied JPW
- As soon as the LLA is mixed in, turn the heat completely off and continue to lightly stir the mix, letting it cool naturally.
- As soon as the concoction has cooled enough that it won't warp or melt the bottle that the lube is going to be poured into, add the 10% odorless mineral spirits into the mix and stir well.
- Fill bottles
Just in case Recluse posts a comment on the previous post, I would like to add a question.
I did not cook all the solvents out of the JPW and I used Alox 606-55 rather than LLW. My reasoning was that the Alox had much less solvent than LLW and the JPW would make up the difference. The resulting tumble lube is somewhat thinner than reported by others here. Should I reheat and cook down the mixture and then add mineral spirits, and if I do that how do I judge how much MS to add?
Since I mixed equal amounts of Alox and JPW before cooking off the solvents, it would seem that more JPW is needed. Comments?
John
W.TN
I made my first batch the 45-45-10 bullet lube last night. I started by empting the contents of the JPW into a pan on a hotplate. Turned the hotplate on just a little past low. The JPW melted to a liquid within a couple of minutes. I measured the depth of the liquid with a piece of wood and marked with a pen. I place my lead thermometer in the pan. I maintained a temperature of 300F to 350F. After 45 minutes the contents cooked down between1/4 and ½ of the original depth.
Next, I poured the contents back into the JPW can. I measured out ¼ cup LLA and poured it into the pan. I then measured a ¼ cup of the cooked down JPW and poured it into the pan. I did this twice more so that I ended up with ¾ cups of each JPW and LLA. Blended this together for 5 minutes on the hotplate. I then removed the pan from the hotplate and set it in a shallow pan of water (about a ½ inch) to accelerate the cooling down. When the mix was lukewarm I added 1/8 cup of MS and mixed it in. I then added to my squirt bottles.
I then took some boollets and put them in a coffee can, squirted the lube on them and tumbled. Took a look at them and couldn’t see much lube; squirted a little more. This time the lube started to solidify on the bullets. (Oh #%$* must start tumbling) Took another look and now I could easily see a build up on the boollets.
After rereading some of the posts in this thread this morning, I find that the lube should hardly be discernable on the boollets. So I plan on tonight to stick the coffee can with the lubed bullets in the oven at 200 degrees, tumble and the pour out to dry. Hopefully that will smooth out the lube.
Sorry for the long post; thought it might be helpful to those who have not been here yet.
very nice took care of my questions on TL thankyou
Recluse, I also would like to thank you for taking the time to answer all of our questions. It is folks like you that make these forums a great place to spend time and seek info.
Thank you and as always....have a good 'un, TCG
You all need to read this!
Last night when making this recipe, I had 3 foot flames shooting out of the pot and I WAS NOT using an open flame or a shallow pan! I was following Recluses's instuctions to the letter. I set my hot pad just below the medium setting which I have verified with my laser infrared thermometer is about 350 degrees. My 2 scoops of JPW came to a boil. The bubbling action was spitting up little specs of liquid JPW - occasionally out of the sauce pan. All it takes is one little spec to hit the hot plate coil and POOF. This mixure will not extinguish without baking soda. I got the pan on the floor and waited till the mixture burned out - about 2 minutes! Good thing my wife wasn't home.
I was reluctant to try this again, but I scrubbed out the pot and had the baking soda ready this time. Here is want you need to watch for so you don't burn your house down!!!!
1. HEAT THE JPW ON THE LOWEST SETTING FIRST.
2. NEVER LEAVE THE ROOM like I read one guy did. Watch it closely.
3. Increse the heat SLOWLY just to the point where it wants to start to form tiny bubbles. This took about 7 or 8 minutes. Don't let the tiny bubbles become BIG bubbles!!! Lift the pot off the plate for a few seconds to cool it down if necessary.
4. The solvents are still vaporizing nicely without the danger. My laser thermometer read no higher than 310 degrees. My actual setting on my hotplate (Harbor freight) was just above "warm". I added 2-3 minutes to the cook time because of the lower temp. The lube turned out fine.
5. Baking soda ready and gloves on your hands.
Hope this clarifies this proceedure a little better. Lower heat works equally as well. Be careful and prepared.
I have actually been setting the whole can of JPW on fire after the fumes start rising and letting it burn until it's half full. A larger stainless steel bowl or pot placed on top of the can of JPW will immediately put the flames out. No charring of the JPW or ill effects.
I did this outside, of course. I put the can on a electric hot plate with a 3/4" thick steel disc on top, and turn the hot plate OFF after lighting the can.
For my last batch I also set it on fire, made sure I had a lid first to smother the flames.
Worked perfectly, but my 12 year old daughter was a bit concerned with the whole procedure.
She said something to the wife about me needing adult supervision...
I have made several batches of this and all that I did was melt the JPW, blend in the LLA, and reduce the mineral spirits to about 5% to offset the remaining solvents in the JPW. No high temps, no fires, works great. Trewax works just as well as JPW.
The best tip that I found for this lube method was to heat the bullets (~200 for 5-10 mins) before application. That, combined with warming this lube in a pan of boiling water, dries the lube on the boolits to a workable state in less than an hour.
I used Minwax Paste Finishing Wax (it's what I had already) and LLA. Didn't measure anything, just melted a big spoonful of wax and stirred in about half as much Alox. When it was cool enough to handle I poured it back into the LLA bottle, which wasn't quite empty. Just a swag, I'd say it's about 60% Minwax and 40% Alox.
I've been using it with Lee 148 grain TL soupcans cast from soft lead (about 15# pure lead to 5# WW's.) It smokes and stinks *much* less than straight LLA, and the boolits are not sticky. I am getting a little leading and fouling just in the first inch of the barrel, but it doesn't build up very fast. The rest of the barrel is clean as a whistle. The boolits are accurate with no flyers.
This is a new boolit mold, so I can't say if they lead if I use straight LLA or if I cast a harder alloy because I haven't tried those yet. The same load using commercial DEWC's (with whatever hard blue wax lube they use) does not cause leading, but these are more accurate.
Bullseye,
Thanks for the info.
I've been making this blend the same way for a long time now, and I've never (knock on wood :)) had any flames whatsoever from the JPW.
Now, I use a griddle--one of those things you make pancakes and bacon and eggs on--and I set the temp knob to 350. I have no idea what the actual temperature of the JPW is as I've never bothered to stick my casting thermometer in there. Reckon I'll do that next time I mix some up.
Probably be helpful, as I think about it. I know what the JPW looks like and how long to cook it before I add the LLA to it. So next batch I make up, as the JPW is cooking, I'll stick the casting thermometer in and see what the actual temp is, then add that to the original post.
As always, anytime any of us are dealing with molten alloys and/ or flammables, safety and preparedness should be first and foremost. I keep a fire extinguisher in my reloading shop, plus I have running water (not what you want to use on a petroleum based flame, however) for burns and whatnot.
Safety first. Always safety first.
:coffee:
how long does it take for this mix to dry? over night kinda thing?
thanks guys
then I have a problem because my coated boolit has been sitting for 3 hours and still not dry, I eye balled it so I am guessing I added to much mineral spirits? and ideas
Actually, if it is still wet it could be too much Alox. The mineral spirits evaporate pretty quickly.
The only concern I have over the method of preparation is the boiling off of flammable solvents. I would have expected that adding JPW and LLA into the pan and slowing heating/melting without forcing the boiling off of solvents would be, at least, somewhat effective.
I will just have to try it myself when I run out of all my current bullets, all lubed with pure LLA (that, and buy some Xlox from White Label).
I would not think that the Alox grease would be as effective in the formula as the LLA/Xlox which "dries" tacky/hard, unlike a grease.
I would expect the grease to be better for pan lubbing with paraffin wax or such, though I would still think that the LLA/Xlox would be better for a firmer/harder lube.
after about 3 hours it dries, maybe to much jpw?....
How thick are you puttin' it on?
How much does this lube smoke ?
CATS
ok after I let it dry it seems to be a nice coating kinda coffee looking I think itll be ok I guees I have heard your supposed to let the boolits sit 24-48 hours to dry anyway, so I am not gonna complain lol
enough that it colors the boolits a brown tint, maybe im putting it on a little to thick?
Probably so, but if you're new to tumble-lubing, then that's always the first mistake everyone makes--without fail. It just doesn't feel right that you should be able to use so little lube and not have problems. . . but that's how it works. :)
No harm in putting it on too thick except that it will take longer to dry, will smoke more, and you might start having a bit of buildup in your (boolit) seating die. The JPW negates the tackiness which is the culprit for the buildup in the seating die, so I'm not really sure what will happen.
Again, no big deal--but you'll find as you tumble-lube more that you can get away with less and less lube. I'm to the point now that I actually have to grab a boolit or two during the process just to convince myself that I do have lube on them.
:coffee:
Yup, I think we all did! "There is just no way a thin, transparent layer of lube is gonna do anything!" When I first started with Alox, I had it on so thick my boolits stuck together in the tumbling bowl dripping with thick syrup. I'd stand 'em up, and have a puddle at the base of each. And holy-hell, they would smoke like I was shooting BP loads---almost anyway. I almost regretted ever letting my 450 take a rest until I started cutting alox amounts waaaaay back, and realized more is anything BUT good. Now my 450 collects more dust than anything. I hold onto it, but don't remember when I used it last. Everything gets a light TL with great success now.Quote:
I too use too much alox when I started tumble lubing, and yep it smoked, and seemed to never dry.
okay ,I also could have toasted marshmallows tonight oh boy!!!!! .Flames 3ft high thinking its because the temp got up to 375 ? was realy cookin .Glad i had a cover handy .
OK, made my first batch of LLA JPW. I saw the question asked but didn't read all the responses to see if it ever got answered, the 4oz bottle of LLA is about 1/2 cup. So I added 1/2 cup of the evaporated JPW and let it cool then added 0.8oz (by volume) of mineral spirits. Then of course I just had to tumble lube some boolits. Yep! I probably added too much. LOL. I'm not going to size these boolits so I'll let it go at one coat instead of compounding the error by adding a second coat. I'm going out of town for a few days tomorrow so when I get back I'll load them up and see how they do.
Never again will I use straight Alox
Look at them...they are like beautiful little sugar coated jewels waiting to be fed to...
never mind,
Ok, I obviously did something wrong. My lube is a solid at room temp. I swear I could pan lube with it. Recluse you use the word viscal and viscous to describe the melted JPW but I never made it to viscous. It was still a thin liquid when I added the LLA and let it cool.
I melted a tin of JPW down to 8 fl oz. The temp never went over 300 deg. Once reduced, I added 2 bottles of LLA and then let it cool down to about 125 deg and then added 2 oz of mineral spirits. It is sitting on my desk in the bottles and is solid. I have to melt it in the microwave just to get it to flow out of the bottle.
What did I do wrong?
thats the way mine came out, its perfect. Just microwave for one minute and it liquifies,
draw an S on your bullets and tumble. They will dry to a nice lite finish and not sticky. I do a light coat then size and then a second coat. Thanks to Recluse and everyone else for your comments, I am happy with mine
Perfect!
Heat it up to where it's still warm to the touch in the bottle (it will revert to a liquid form), then apply sparingly to your (pre-warmed) boolits and tumble. Let dry. Size, if you need to or prefer to (I size everything I cast). Lube again. Let dry. Load. Shoot. Enjoy.
:coffee:
Ok, so I tried melting the lube in the microwave tonight. Heated it up and took the top off. It was plugged with a thick paste but I could hear liquid sloshing around in the bottle. Took a toothpick and pushed the paste "plug" down in the bottle and then ran the toothpick through the nozzle. Works like a charm.
Just lubed about 150 boolits and they are drying as we speak. Just like you said Recluse, I had to touch them to actually tell there was lube on the boolits.
Sorry to jump the gun on the post above. All is well now.
ETA: Now we just need to get Mihec to make us some TL molds. :mrgreen:
I have to take a toothpick and clear that nozzle every single time I heat the bottle up. I've just factored it in as part of the process.
Also, you don't need microband boolits in order to tumble lube. I use this mix on several boolits that have traditional lube grooves--and with outstanding results.
:coffee:
There are several custom mould makers that offer tumble-lube designs if you so desire, but like Recluse said they aren't necessary at all for using that kind of lube.
Gear
I take a 2-qt heavy duty Ziplock freezer bag with the gripper zipper, dump in 5# of boolits, spew some alox on them like putting ketchup on french fries, then seal it up and roll the bag around ,squooshing the boolits around inside. If you can just see the alox in the grooves it's fine. I sue the same bag over and over again. Fresh alox loosens up the semi-hard crust in the bag. Dump them on a sheet pan and leave an old hair dryer on low blowing on it for a half hour or so, they are dry to the touch and ready to load.
Going to hit up the local Ziebart shop and try to buy a gallon of their ALOX liquid for cash money. Paying Lee $128 a gallon is silly!
Just had to update and add......best.....lube......ever!!!!
10 minutes worth of work pictured below.
Recluse :drinks:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...200grlubed.jpg
OK,, what do ya do when you can't find any JPW????? I've searched high and low for weeks.Will sraight carnuba work??
Going to hit up the local Ziebart shop and try to buy a gallon of their ALOX liquid for cash money. Paying Lee $128 a gallon is silly![/
lar45 is a vendor here, and has XLOX,,same stuff I hear just had to change the name. $10.50 per/qt. seems very reasonable to me.
Here's his site,,,,,,
http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/