I stopped by Donnie's today and bought some red copper coating to play around with
Printable View
I stopped by Donnie's today and bought some red copper coating to play around with
To answer your questions about Extreme and 2-Extreme Catalysts here are some of my observations and comments.
First, if any lube is more slippery, it does not necessarily translate into faster speeds.
I will try to explain. The lube/coating on alloy, must provide adequate resistance inside barrel to allow maximum pressures to build up, to get speed and accuracy required.
If lube is so slippery, that it overcomes frictional resistance, the results may become erratic with speed and accuracy as pressure build up is much reduced as projectile is already moving with minimal resistance.
The search for best lubricant system has been on the agenda for many years.
Main reason is that people wanted the alloys to slip through the gun, without leaving deposits, and using a lube or coating that achieves that end is what is ideally required. Clean guns, no wear, No Leading etc etc.
The search was to find something that stays on alloy, provides lubrication, not affected by heat and friction, and leaves guns clean and produces accuracy, and provide engineering for coorect operation of guns with alloy of choice.
Using Extreme Catalyst, in the HI-TEK provides additional lubrication, that helps size oversized projectiles that require major reduction in diameters. It reduces the heavy loads on sizing punches, gearboxes driving machinery and minimises punch damage at rear of alloy during sizing.
Also, as many are using the Wax lube sizers which have long internal surfaces, and you can get two or three projectiles inside these sizers at the same time.
During sizing, this tends to damage the nose of the projectiles and rear of projectiles by high resistant pressures being built up in the long surfaces of the sizing dies..
Using coatings with Extreme Catalyst, eliminates high pressure loads with these type of sizers, and alloys are not damaged at front or back during sizing.
With the 2-Extreme Catalyst, you get all the benefits of the Extreme Catalyst, and get far superior metal separation when using alloy in high energy loads as with rifle ammo, and is not affected with extreme heat generated with high velocity and high firing rates that produce very hot barrels.
With standard Catalyst, it works well in majority of applications, but now, you have the choice and ability to use stuff that will help with certain applications where there had not been any satisfactory results in the past.
Thank you for the very in depth answer. If I have this right, that means I can buy the coating and both catalysts, and mix up what I need at the time to suit the purpose. Extreme for pistol and low pressure stuff, and extreme 2 for rifle stuff.
Thank you,
Dick
Hi, thanks for quick reply.
For most pistol use, the normal catalyst is fine. You really do not need to spend extra money if it works OK with pistols.
The Extreme catalyst was mainly designed for folk that had the lube sizer type dies, with long internal surfaces that held up internally two or three projectiles at a time. This caused a lot of problems with damage to nose and rear of projectiles during sizing with standard coated projectiles.
Using Extreme catalyst with coating, by these folk, reduced the loads sufficiently to allow sizing to take place without damage to ammo or equipment.
Using the Extreme catalyst eliminated need for users having to buy new sizing dies with short internal sizing surface.
For other uses, the Extreme catalyst provided ability for some to use over sized ammo, and drastically size them down to sizes where they had no molds available, and, without damage to lube coating.
It is also very efficient in reducing loads when sizing very hard alloys, but both Extreme and 2-Extreme will work with these.
If you are looking at Rifle ammo, my suggestion is to try normal catalyst coated ammo first, then, try the 2-Extreme catalysed coating as a direct comparison.
After testing, decide which suits your needs adequately.
The 2-Extreme catalysed system tolerates higher heat and velocities much better, and provides better metal separation during severe hydraulic deformations occurring with high energy load and fired at rapid speeds.
Hope That I have clarified things a little better.
HI-TEK
So the 2-extreme is better for say, .223 applications? I went with the Red Copper because I was told it was better suited for rifle velocity but worked just as well as the green on pistol rounds. Should I be using a different catalyst too?
I would suggest that you try with normal catalyst first.
For comparison purposes, using the 2-Extreme should provide you some answers about any performance improvements that can be obtained.
Because of high speeds, (I am told around 3500 to 3600ft.sec) with small projectiles, I am wondering the changes of retention time/and reduction of resident time versus additional lubrication will provide significant and noticeable changes.
It certainly wont hurt to try and compare the two.
Would be most interested in your testing results.
Just a question for Ausglock and Hitek. Are you selling the smaller sizes in Aus? I would like to get some to NZ to try.
Range Report
30/30 9 grains trailboss, 113 grain lee soup can, excellent accuracy, with only 5% of the smoke of liquid alox.
Not one speck of leading.
Thanks Ausglock, and to Flintrockrecord, and NZ members.
There is an importer in NZ. He should have stocks.
The person is Darren Keen.
I dont have a recent contact detail but have this as last contact
Darren Keen
Deep South Arms International ltd
97 moray place CBD Dunedin New zealand ph 64 3 489 4562
Please advise how you go with him.
HI-TEK
Darren is a good bloke. He travels to OZ to shoot IPSC all the time.
Very well known and respected in OZ.
Contact Taieri Arms
Monday - Friday: 9.30am to 6.00pm
Saturday: 9.00am to 1.00pm
Taieri Arms
162 Gordon Road Mosgiel Dunedin 9024
New Zealand
Phone: +64 3 489 4562
URL: www.3gun.co.nz
Ok gang, I are going to get on board with this. Just ordered a half liter in gold from Donnie.
Does the extra slipperyness of the extreme and extreme 2 catalyst effect neck tension on taper crimped bullets?
One of these days I'll be done with the questions.
Probably not, as it is static force on alloy.
You just need enough crimp pressure to hold alloy in place.
The only way to determine it is to try it.
Dont worry about asking questions, as that is how we all learn from each other.
I am glad that you are interested enough to ask things.
I just made a call to Bayou Bullets today and I have a 1 liter kit of the Red Copper ordered. Now it's time to see how hard I can push it in the 308 Winchester and 8X57 Mauser.
No extreme catalysts at this time, but I'll be bugging them once some comes in!! This looks so much more easier than playing mad scientist with powder coating and it has a proven track record. A big thanks to all (especially HI-TEK and Bayou Bullets) for all the information provided so far.
I wonder if ya'll just kicked the American bullet lube market in the junk...
Thanks much for the vote of confidence. Much appreciated.
I am glad that folk are happy with results they are getting, and that what was advised will stand up in actual use.
There is a shipment order with a couple of folks from US, and it certainly appears that there will be some of the 2-Extreme catalyst being ordered as well.
(From test results being completed this and next week, it seems that we may also have some Red coloured coatings) I will post some pictures as received, & after test firing is done.)
HI-TEK
mail me some BBQ, joe! How bout a brisket?
-------------------------------------------
I think i turned out 1000 bullets in hour/50mins, of NOE135 gr R.N.F.. Now i need to :
"its shake and bake mama"
Some teaser photos.
These are taken before cooking them.
Hopefully they will be Ok after cooking and test firing.Attachment 75993Attachment 75994Attachment 75995
I need to get som buulets cast up tonight. I need to cast some 45 acp, 38 special, 9mm, and 8mm.
Love Life. it makes no difference.
The 357Sig round has a very short neck on the case. when loading these I put the nose of the bullet against the bench and try to push the bullet back into the case. If the bullet moves, There isn't enough crimp. I adjust the crimp to suit.
I have loaded some lee 358 125gr RNFP sized to .356 caoted in the new bright red/maroon coating in to resized 40 S&W cases made into 357Sig cases and will be firing them tomorrow. these red/maroon bullets look HOT!!!!!!
I'm wondering how this is going to play out to lube swaged lead bullets with no grooves.
If it does, I do believe I will go this route.
already did, works great. 380 bullets with my custom NOE. Took it back this morn to CNC shop, wanted spru plate different.
Nickle, it should have no effect on a swaged projectile without a lube groove. The lube grove is only there to provide an area for the traditional wax type lube. If you are coating an entire projectile with the Hi-Tek system then you would not need the groove because the entire projectile is coated in lube.
That's what I was thinking.
I've got swaging equipment, so if I plan ahead, swaging them isn't bad, especially in the winter here, when it's WAY to cold to cast outside, or with a door open.
Swage bullet is brass, rite nickle? Will HTS stick to brass?
NICKLE,, ??? can u post pics of your swage equipment and how you do yours?
You can swage jacketed bullets, or lead bullets (no jackets).
I'd post pics, but I'm using a Corbin (Dave) CSP-1 press and S type dies from him. It's on his site.
If you swage lead bullets, you don't get lube grooves. That's why I have to lube "outside the box". And, there's no need to lube a jacketed bullet.
Gunoil, you can swage either. Cut down an existing brass case and swage it with a lead core or a solid lead bullet or swaged with gas checks. The nice thing about using a swage is the versatility of the die. Want to make a hollow point...make it. Want to make it a little longer or shorter....adjust the die. It's just a slower process than casting, but it tends to be more accurate.
More accurate, and doesn't involve using a furnace. Unless you cast cores that is. Not planning on using gas checks for some of them, as the primary swaged lead bullets will be kept moderately slow, slower pistol calibers.
Casting and smelting are pretty much seasonal here. Spring and fall. Too hot in the summer, way too cold in the winter.
Nice to see you adding to site.
Much appreciated.
Just wanted to add, that folks have used the HI-TEK coating on swaged alloys in Aus, and also on Copper plated and Jacketed ammo.
Rifle stuff is not as big as pistol shooting here and demand volume is for pistol market.
duplicate post
yea, i know, i love em briskets. Cant get any in NC. Iam bizzy in garage, need to learn how to.
Over past couple nites, not long each nite, i cast bout 1200, might cast a few more in morning. The coat with HTS saturday evening.
well yea, guess ya dont coat a brass swage bullet but what is a swage lead bullet? All i know is sizeing and swage brass over lead. I know corbin, heck yea, bout 2500$. Ouch!
The lee sizing dies work great on the coated bullets, but the shorty dies from Chris "Lathesmith" are works of art. I punch bullets through at 4k per hour, hundreds of thousands through them, and they still drop like they did day 1. I think it has to be a combination of the great lube and quality die.
I have found less coating gives a nicer looking bullet. You want thin coats and you can get a prettier bullet. I let my bullets dry as dumped out of my mixer (I go 40lbs to a tray). I give my rack a good whack when I set it down to un stick any stuck bullets then run my hands through them to make sure they are not sticking. I do the same thing as soon as they come out of the oven. I rarely get any bullets stuck together doing this, and they are almost always stuck base to base (and very difficult to separate)
I know Joe says the coating is good for 3 days once mixed, but I found a jar that was mixed in the A/C for who knows how long and tried it on some personal bullets and it worked. When the coating turns bad it changes color IME, a kinda funky blue green color. What I do know is try to mix enough coating to cover the bullets I am coating that day, but if I over shoot, I just add it to the next days batch so my coating is always fresh.
I have some 9mm 135gr RN copper plated bullets that have been coated with Gold coating. They fired just fine.
This Supercoat sticks to anything.
Been playing with the red/maroon coating.
Looks great.
Before baking
Attachment 76026
After final baking. Note the 2 smash tested bullets in the center of the photo.
Attachment 76028
Firing them tomorrow. Woohoo.....
Gunoil- How is that smooth sided bullet working for you? I have been contemplating having Accurate Moulds cut me a couple smooth sided bullets just for this process. Only hurdle I have to get over is they don't make round nose moulds...
They work great, guess were not use to lookin at stuff unless it has a lube ring, hehehehe! I shot a bunch of em. Since i have mine made 4 miles away, its all good. They scaled @ 107 i wanted 111, so hes drilling lil" deeper, also i made sproo plate holes smaller when i read tom does that. And i had him add a sproo plate handle i had laying around (lee).
Here, old photo, I'll put up other photo when he gives it back. Hes sometimes slow, i have to call him.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/...ps870bce1d.jpg
OK, so who do I have to speak to to get some of this stuff in Perth and what will it cost me in Ozzy dollars.
One question.
After reading the rest of this thread I gather that everybody waits till the bullets start to get tacky in the tumbler and then rack them and dry them. Wouldn't it be quicker and easier to just stick a heater into the tumbler and let them dry while they tumble then stick them straight into the oven from the tumbler?