From WikiP. So it has to get hot to work?Quote:
ZDDP starts decomposing at 130-170 °C, ... reaction products form a chemically bonded lubricating film on the surfaces.
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From WikiP. So it has to get hot to work?Quote:
ZDDP starts decomposing at 130-170 °C, ... reaction products form a chemically bonded lubricating film on the surfaces.
Based on my results, I believe that pre-fouling the bore with that particular lube will throw the first shot about an inch or so low from the next few. If you dry-patch with several tight patches this is eliminated, but try it with the faint coating to see what the light pre-lube film does in YOUR rifle.
Gear
I wouldn't call it pre-fouling per se... it's more like pre-lubing. I'm trying to condition the barrel (by cleaning then pre-lubing) so the first shot after storage for a month or more will place the boolit where I want it to go. Before packing the rifle for tomorrow's shoot, the barrel didn't obviously have anything in it but a dull shine.
MJ
P.S. Can you help me round up the ingredients or at least point me to manufacturers descriptions so I can make some myself? If the mix continues to produce good results, I'd like to have enough to use for pan lubing.
I gave all that info in the recipe. Any brand of ester-100 automotive air conditioning compressor lubricant should do. I got the King Industries NA-LUBE EP 5414 and the HTO from Bruce, and together they DO make quite a difference in the final product. There are suppliers all over the internet if you search the product names.
I'm wondering if a little bit, maybe 10% or so, of the ester wax Jeff came up with would fill the viscosity niche between the oil and the HTO and the beeswax. The lube might be more plastic if it had a little bit of softer ingredient, rather than going from hard/smooth to soft-sticky when worked. I'm thinking it might offset the brittleness of the carnauba.
Gear
Because it won't fill the gap between the liquids and the solids. HTO's about the right melt point, but you can't use too much of it because it makes the lube even more thixotropic, and it has a very low melt point. The ester wax would be about right with about a 120F melt point.
You have an oil that has a pour point well below zero F, a polymer that melts just above body temperature, a fatty alcohol that melts around 120F, another fatty alcohol that melts at 145F, and yet another that melts above 160F. Pretty decent balance if you ask me. Jojoba has a gel point of around 40 F (it solidifies in the refrigerator and immediately starts to melt when removed), so that could be considered too I suppose if one wanted to balance the melt points even more.
Gear
the hto wax melts very fast when it goes also.
about 85-90-f it's liquid.
that's part of why i am using it in some lubes,it starts to "wet" before anything else, except stuff that's already liquid.
it however is a solid and has to be waiting till it's in the bbl to start working even in the heat.
looks like the yin/yang thing is working elsewhere, besides my moly complex.
bruce381 - I understand, is why I asked. Question is for a cleaned bbl, 1st shot has no ZDDP layer, so a fouling shot is required? Or cleaning doesn't remove all the layer? Possibly sight in shots and no cleaning leaves a 'prepared' bore for hunting?I take this as an agreement that heat, from friction also, is required to get the lube layer. So maybe I'm picky about details but sometimes it makes a difference.Quote:
friction will do the job
Well Gear, you may not have yet found the perfect bullet lube, but I think you may have just pointed out the solution to the age-old social barbecue problem of holding onto your cheeseburger, beer, AND paper plate at the same time. If you figure out how to integrate the "fatty alcohol" INTO the cheeseburger, or possibly develop a grillable, DRINKABLE cheeseburger, tailgaters the world over will be in your debt! :2 drunk buddies:
I like my science WEIRD....... Yep, you got that right! Absolutely nothing wrong with off-the-wall thinking! You never know, a food scientist might be viewing this thread by hook and crook. ... felix
I put another 50 downrange this morning in the '06 using both CarnEsterBee and the stuff I sent to MJ. Both are putting the first three in a tight group with a cold barrel, either clean or fouled, no matter, then opening up the groups a bit after that. I'm beginning to think this stuff needs some gellant to control the oil better. Or maybe a lot less carnauba, not sure.
The 'S-lube' as MJ calls it shoots cleaner than the CarnEsterBee, not sure why. At eight feet from the muzzle, there was ZERO lube on the chronograph, and no lube star at all. I'm quite certain the lube is coming off the boolits, I think it's evaporating completely or burning off, there's no smoke at the muzzle at all.
Gear
Gear, what boolit are you using for your test platform? I can't find any lube on the muzzle either. My chronograph could probably be used as a beehive, so I wouldn't notice if S-lube was flinging off in the first 10-12 feet of flight. Sorry, no targets today... I upped the powder charge and used the last of my RCBS 30-165-SIL boolits which were culls and paid for it in terms of wasted time, powder, alloy, gas checks and S-lube (all groups resemble targets 2 and 3 from post #1029). The next time out will be with 26.0/Re7 and the Ranch Dog 311-170 with all grooves lubed filled. I gotta get to castin' this weekend.
MJ
"so is a fouling shot required"
I do not know no data about boolits but I would guess so.
""Or cleaning doesn't remove all the layer""
Again no data but the ZDDP film is pretty tough i'd say that "normal"
bore brushing would not remove it and it is thin micro layer
"so is a fouling shot required"
I do not know no data about boolits but I would guess so.
""Or cleaning doesn't remove all the layer""
Again no data but the ZDDP film is pretty tough i'd say that "normal"
bore brushing would not remove it and it is thin micro layer
"Normally" it isn't necessary to brush the bore, only a patch with mild solvent like Ed's Red to remove the light carbon/lube fouling so things don't rust, or at most a light oil to be patched nearly dry before shooting again. I don't expect any lube component that's designed to condition the bore on a semi-permanent basis to survive a deep scrubbing, not would I really want it to.
The lube needs to do its job (whatever that is) shot to shot the same way, and being able to restore or mimic the shot-to-shot condition after a cleaning would be a bonus.
Gear
Some interesting info. http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090192060
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wip...010063099.html Many references to air tool oil.
Checked a new batch of oil only lubed. After 3 days in the garage @ oil did NOT bleed out. What I thought was bleeding was just left over on the cases that drained off. Cleaned these cases real well and left laying in a plastic tray, no oil on the tray now. My Carnuba/oil mix (really high oil content) did bleed out of the wax but was reabsorbed when the temp went down (115 to 98F). I agree the Carnuba causes groups to open up. From 30-30 I shot 10 oil only and got 1" vertical group. next 10 were C/O and shot the 1" vertical also. another 60, then same test, groups were ~6" scattered, @ 50 yds. Same results with 308 but GC were 1/4" into case. Both bbl were 'cleaner' than using recluse lube. Planning to try the air-tool oil on ~ 40 next month.
Doing some research for what was in cylinder oil. This lead to further research on rapeseed oil. Apparently rapeseed oil unlike Canola oil contains a high amount of erucic acid. Erucic acid acts as a pour point depressant. Would something like this be useful for the low temp portion of you lube? Also on one of the discussions on practicalmachinist.com indicated that most modern extreme pressure gear oils are hostile to copper bearing alloys because of chlorine and phosphorous compounds.
I don't know if you considered this, but I thought it worth mentioning.
Quiver
""Erucic acid acts as a pour point depressant.""
Not really and the acid will polymerize to a sticky gel
""Also on one of the discussions on practicalmachinist.com indicated that most modern extreme pressure gear oils are hostile to copper bearing alloys because of chlorine and phosphorous compounds.""
Not really its mostly the sulfur portion in the gear oil that causes the copper/bronze corrosion BUT there are some "EP" type gear oils that will NOT effect copper alloys some not all.
haven't shot the polymer coated stuff just yet.
however the E-purple changed to 45 % wax [from 40%] is now my fulltime official pistol cartridge levergun lube.
and will most likely become my pistol/revolver lube also.
[if i can bring myself to try talking bruce out of some more aluminum stearate,and HTO wax]
it has shown excellent accuracy,no smoke,and a clean barell [even with unique powder]
i have taken it from 5 grs of clays through 8.0- 9.5 grs of unique up to 18-19.5 grs of 2400 and a couple of other loads in between those.
in the [3] 44 mag [4] 45 colt,the 44-40,and the 357 mag leverguns.
and some 41/44 mag and 44 special revolver loads.