Wow, that wasn't intentional, but I officially OWN post #2000! We made it, guys!
Gear
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Wow, that wasn't intentional, but I officially OWN post #2000! We made it, guys!
Gear
Braggard!
It is only fair as you have been the driving force behind this. Well, run deserves credit too.
I think the current wax/soap ratios will keep lube from running at sane temps. Only time will tell with that I suppose. Maybe a ball of wax on some paper placed in the hot sun under a glass to trap and hold heat? Watch and see if it bleeds oil or leaves a gooey residue on the paper.
I agree that accuracy is important but not the over riding factor. I am happy with a lube that gives good accuracy at a wide range of temps. Ammo handling is important, I don't like greasy rounds of handgun ammo in the heat.
Congrats to all on 2K posts, at what point does a thread get its own bullets to indicate post count?
Well, it's a sticky and somebody gave it five stars, so it's pretty much maxed-out on decoration. You guys have been great! I'd just like to be able to edit the title to add on word--"fulfilled" and put the winning formula in the OP in hot pink script.
I can't stop thinking about the hBN maybe fixing the Beta or SL-62. You know, I think I'll try that NEXT, since I know just what those formulas can do with the right amount of slickum, and exactly what would help them. We need to know what effect hBN has anyway.
Gear
Maybe hBN is the solid filler you have been looking for? Something that adds a bit of firmness without changing viscosity, melt point, or other physical properties. An extremely fine grade of graphite may work too.
I think very small amounts are going to be the key.
Would this also work well in rough bores because it helps smooth over the rough spots?
the dry beta and the graphite would do well.
this route is going to best for temperature anyway, we end up fighting core issues in the cold.
if there isn't anything there but dry powder fouling there ain't anything to fix.
the graphite in the lube would be more compatible.
something dry and solid in there moving around would help get the lube flowing better anyway.
the 61-0/ala 61.1 with another click lowered oil content would benefit from the hbn.
kind of like a 61.5 version.
No moly allowed folks! I damaged just too many good clothes when reloading/shooting. You don't know the damage until the pants and shirts are washed. The black spots remain forever. Maybe with graphite also, but I don't know that, but anything fine and hard, and the wrong color for clothes should be ignored. ... felix
Btroj's post below says graphite washes out. Glad to know that. But, on the first wash? ... felix
Yah, moly is a pain. I think graphite or hBN would be better choices. Graphite at least washes off stuff, moly doesn't.
Graphite should suspend quite well in this base as it begins to gel. It get thick enough early on the prevent settling. I doubt we will have issues regarding the graphite settling out.
Hey Gear...you ever think about cracking a window and/or trading your black pickup in for a white one. :lol:
Seriously though...I KNOW that what I posted is not exactly what you seek....I told Edd that fact 10 minutes after I posted it, but I thought that it might help those souls that are not guarding the gates of Hell :mrgreen: Merely getting some of the oils out of the mix helped alot, but I still get smaller groups without all the soap........what I posted may not be extreem but it does work HERE and NOW and from 650 to 2500 fps.......there and later is your problem....GOOD LUCK, but I think the second all that oil got the boot you were headed the right way. Joe Lube and Gear1Goo were just too much >>TOO MUCH. A good idea taken too far is all.......proceed and have fun and thanks again for the TRANNY GOO.....I am still playing with it/ tweaking around with it.......but I like it.
Mike
Mike, my current test batch has way less oil.
I used 1 oz ivory, 1 oz goo, 1/2 oz each beeswax and paraffin. I added 1 3/4 tea K2 2 stroke and 1 tea mineral oil.
It is much stiffer and dryer than the original yet has enough stickiness to easily go on by hand.
I thinks mix of waxes is the best , let each balance the negatives of the other.
Cold weather testing isn't gonna happen much any more, we are warming up. Finally.
It will be very interesting to see how these lubes handle the heat. if we can get good results with a set level of oils in heat then they should be fine in cold too, least they won't be too slick in the cold.
Brad
It took me that one batch of GearGoo1 to start ditching oil......I have test lots that are real similar to yours above, I also have some that are hybridized with other recipes....just have not had the time or the weather when I had time to test them all. Plus I got the idea that I needed to upgrade my bench and right the moment my loading room looks like a trailer park after a tornado.
I am still trying to find a paraffin/micro blend that gets rid of the beeswax altogether, but I have not found the handling balance with it yet. When I ditch the beeswax I either end up with mortar or gooey putty so the answer is there to be found...somewhere/eventually. It will not satisfy Ian's goal with all that soap, but it might satisfy ME....we shall see.
I don't know about that. Seems the only criticism of MML is that it "falls apart" when temps hit triple digits and there is a significant proportion of paraffin contained in MML. Besides, microcrystalline wax is the industry standard these days for extending the melt point of paraffin, not stearate. Now stearic acid, that's a horse of a different color which will increase the melt point of paraffin. Just tossing whatever-stearate into wax to increase the melt point only creates problems and I've never been able to melt enough sodium stearate (for example) into wax to move the melt point significantly without scorching the heck out of the wax. IMHO, at least for the time being, stearates are for grease making, period.
MJ
I never had any problem with making a workable consistency with the SL-61, 62, or any of the similar, previous and unpublished SL series using straight microwax or micro-paraffin blends. But I taught myself how to do it through much trial and error, as those who weren't paying attention to Lamar's and my posts will have to do as well.
Gear
Gear have I mentioned Bentone Clay? as in Baragel? it will make non drip greases, will gel oils and swells and holds oil/wax from melting
bruce
http://www.elementis-specialties.com/esweb/WebProducts.nsf/allbydocid/D9CBC4FDD65CD431852575F90060C0F3/$FILE/BARAGEL%C2%AE%203000.pdf
Hi Bruce, I was afraid you'd given up on us!
You sent me some Baragel along with some handy instructions and it was one of the very first things I tried early on in this Quest. Unfortunately, it didn't work just as a grease with no wax. The problem has to do with pumpability and that it de-oils when fired, leaving caked streaks of clay in the bore. Maybe if it was milled in a pro machine it would be better? Or maybe with a wax?
Gear
It would proably be alot better off if I just admit that I am not worthy and carry on about my day...never was real good about paying attention anyway.
might be good as a filler and friction modifier.
I know it will grab onto oxidized lead.
Baragel is put for me unless it is pretty easily purchased. Specialty items make it too difficult for Joe Blow to make lube. If it is easily purchased then it may have some use. I would think very small amounts.
MJ, I am hardly an expert on MML but my understanding is that Mike uses mostly microwax to make it, wi a bit o beeswax to keep it from having such a sharp melt point. It does get very soft at 90 plus degrees. That's as much because it has very little soap as much as anything.
We are making a lube with over 30 percent soap. MML has maybe 40 percent grease which might be 15 percent soap. That means MML has probably well under 10 percent soap. I think is why we see very different high temp properties.
Make some SL 61 or a variant and ou will see what I mean. It doesn't just harden. It goes thru a definite gel phase. It then hardens. My FIL tried to melt some in order to dip lube some bullets for testing. I hadn't warned him that it doesn't melt easily and he commented that it was a bitch to melt. This was with beeswax alone. If the melt point hadn't been altered then it should have easily melted at temps he expected it to melt at yet it didn't. I call that evidence of a much higher melt point of the lube as compared to the melt temp of the base wax.
I think the melt temp of the wax is far and away one of the least important physical properties of the wax. I think the hardness, dryness, and stickiness are far more important. I think a mix of waxes will be the final result because each wax brings some beneficial properties and some negatives. A mix of waxes let's each balance out the pluses and minuses of the others.
MML has twice as much plain ol' canning paraffin as BW-430 and three times more beeswax than micro. Also, the grease called for is Naphthenic based.
MJ
P.S. Actually, I think Naphthenic is incorrect and it is indeed less common than mineral oil based lithium greases, sorry about that!
Well, looks like you've got a hobby there. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, Ian but it sounds like you wanna start all over again... 100 pages not enough fer ya? :lol:
Have you had a chance to talk with a chemical engineer (or a reasonable facsimile) at BW yet? Why not initially develop a carrier of perhaps three waxes and shoot it a hundred or so times to see how it performs without your "lubricity additive"? You'll need to throttle back the initial testing with Unique or 2400 instead of setting your goal at somewhat over 2000 fps right out of the gate. After which, you can add a soapy, soapy grease to take the lube to light speed and beyond. It wouldn't be the end of the world if one needed to add a dab more grease to their lube during the dead of winter on top of the Continental Divide vs. August in the desert. With warmer weather just around the corner, testing just the lube base/carrier at lower speed should be fun.
MJ
A wax heavy lube? Isn't that called Carnuba Red?
It may be great in summer heat but I tell you what, CR gives cold barrel flyers at temps below 50 degrees.
I will just keep fiddling with what I think is the right way.
Others are welcome to do as they chose, be sure to let us know how your testing turns out MJ.
I bought some of Lars 2700 to try in the high heat conditions this summer like 60 degrees and up till I cannot stand it.
Personally, I don't like Carnauba. Unfortunately, I still have 4 pounds of my 5 pound purchase of T3 made some time ago. Yes, it is for sale or trade.
My idea is high temp paraffin, beeswax and a bit of microcrystalline wax for additional flex... but not too much micro due to its naphthenic hydrocarbon content and using that wax base alone as a lower velocity lube. I'd also like to test that combo against 160F paraffin/beeswax and ??? wax to see how it performs at lower velocities in the heat of summer. The point is, ya gotta start with an "Extreme" carrier before you can find uber-lube. :lol:
MJ
P.S. Here's an idea fer ya:
I remember much earlier, talk of poly-whatever ingredients was going around and I was wondering if anyone has tried melting a plastic shopping bag into paraffin. I'm just crazy enough to try it. :bigsmyl2:
The soap, wax, and Tranny too ARE the carrier, not just the wax.
The soap seconds as a grease forming agent. The Goo is also the mid viscosity modifier. The wax also help lubricate. The only single tasker we have is the oil, except the mineral oil, it helps form the grease and also helps modify the viscosity of the entire lube.
We need to look at the lube as a whole, not as Individual players.
you beat me to it.
poly glycol is a very good extreme lube, probably as good as the soap lube.
maybe better.
it is just about impossible to deal with at home.
I doubt you can even make it [or a facsimile] with home type tooling.
you can however get poly ethylene glycol in several strand lengths to act as a long strand binder.
I would recommend you start with peg-15 or peg-20 it comes as a solid wax and can be melted pretty easily.
the peg-20 is a common binding agent in electro ceramics.
I did work out a way to add poly-E's to a lube.
I even have about 20 boolits kicking around that are tumble lubed in a poly type lube.
some of this is what lead to the poly-butene additions about 12-50 pages back.
PEG I am familiar with. We use it for suppositories. Easy to mix different molecular weights to get a substance that melts at body temp. I never thought about it in a lube like this. I did try it straight as a BP lube on some minis many years ago. Didn't work so well. Too soft, poor lubricating ability. It did clean up easily.
Ok, add veggy glycerin and sodium stearate to the PEG or BP lube. The SS should dissolve at low heat due to the water-soluble nature of the other ingredients (what's the term for that, hydrophillic or some such?) We've talked about this before with regard to the various veggie gums as potential oil gellants. Still interesting.
Wasn't the polyglycol involved in the infamous late-night flaming mess? IIRC that stuff had no drop point but was soft enough (or firm enough, depending on how you look at it) for a lube base. How's the film strength of Polyglycol stuff?
Gear
Yep, hydrophilic is the word.
PEG would mix readily with stearates as it is water soluble. How the stearate would affect melt point is hard to say.
I am not sure if oils would mix well with the PEG or not. Interesting idea.
My big fear is the fact this stuff would be very hygroscopic. Don't know if I want it in my barrel of it might rain or was really humid. A wax might mitigate this as it would help seal the surface to prevent water penetration.
So many neat chemicals, so little time.
I was speaking strictly in terms of black powder lube with that mix. The soap would be there more as an emulsifier/binder between the glycols and oils/waxes, and maybe boost the temp stability. Murphy's oil soap is a common BP lube ingredient for the emulsification and lube properties. All those lubes are hygroscopic as all get-out, intentionally so because water keeps the lube fouling soft so you don't have to swab the bore between every shot to maintain accuracy. It's the C.O.R.E. thing again, on a grand scale in the instance of black powder.
Gear
yeah the poly glycol was the flaming plastic 3.am dash through a snowstorm.
I was attempting to mix it.
it was also involved in the infamous adding stearated grease to it adventure which made a sticky ball of goop in between my fingers.
the plain "J" lube does work very well in lots of my rifles, I am still shooting it.
it just isn't modifiable.
it did help me realize that what a lube does in the barrel and upon exit and what it leaves behind are the deciding factors on good versus bad lubes.
I don't need that kind of excitement, my spouse would quickly put her foot down. Well, or up depending upon where she put it.
BTW,
Has anyone here tested any of their Extreme lubes against LBT Soft Blue?
MJ
Not me. Never have used any LBT lubes.
Don't plan to buy any just to compare.
You volunteering MJ?
you seen one marine calcium soap based lube you seen em all.
there might be a reason there are two versions hmmm.
the soft is the hard modified with Vaseline btw.
some people have access to university's and stuff.
how do you think bullshops bullplate got identified?
you know we sit up late at night and read and do research and junk right?
the story's about smoking plastic and junk don't just happen, you have to be trying things.
Be sure to let us know how your testing goes. 10 sticks should give you a good comparison.
Which formula of soap lube do you plan to test it against?
And Run, you mean lube development and testing isn't done online? You actually shoot this stuff? I gotta try that sometime.
yeah modifying things and trying them takes a little time away from the computer.
unfortunately.
sometimes I miss DR.WHO because of it too.